43 Foot Searay Sinks

[psneeld]

I've spent 30 years in the aviation industry where people live and die by charts or lack thereof. I guess the marine industry is different because you guys only have to worry about hitting stuff at 20 knots or less instead of 200.

Former Head of Aviation Safety for the USCG...I believe the USCG flies a different mission profile than most.... safety wise....ya know like hitting stuff while flying well off aviation charts.

So I understand both aviation and maritime pretty well.

 

[Tkgc]

Would you ever enter an unfamiliar inlet at night without even so much as a cursory glance at the charts? Would you enter that inlet at night with a plotter running? If you'd never been through there and you had the plotter running, would you have cut R6 and G5? Even if you had local knowledge, would you have cut inside those markers at night to save a couple hundred yards?

"It wasn't marked on the chart." No, bullshit, it is marked. It's right there. I can see it here from my living room in Utah, 2500 miles away from the inlet. This isn't a mistake. A mistake is spelling "deacon" without the "a."

Thanks for the spell check. I be sure to check that in the future so as not to upset you.

I was not there when it sank. I took a few screen grabs from the video on my phone and relayed the story.

 

[tiltrider1]

I am not familiar with this area. I tried to put my self in the position of arriving at Jacksonville in the dark for the first time with a new boat. Very possibly I would simply be using my iPad and nothing else. My iPad, using Navionics, only has vector charts, no raster charts. My conservative nature would be to line up a course between buoy 5 and 6. This appears to put me safety in the channel with no chance of finding bottom.

I then zoomed in more and while my vector chart shows some odd lines it does not give any indication of submerged jetties or shallow water. It does show something and I can see how it could be very easy to ignore the strange markings and assume plenty of water. While the claim of unmarked jetty is not accurate, something is marked, the claim of inadequately marked sure has some ground.

I do Not have a raster chart of the area but it sure appears that the raster charts in
earlier posts, show more and better data than a vector chart.

So my first thought is, How did they screw this up. My second thought is, if they saw the jetty and were using my vector charts I can see how they would be unaware that there was even a submerged jetty.

I am curious if any one sees it the same as I did.

 

[Tkgc]

I am curious if any one sees it the same as I did.

It's been about 25 years since I've had an infant child. I would like to think, I would have taken possession of my new (to me) vessel and spent the night in Cape Canaveral and proceeded in the very early am. Either by myself or with a friend. Definitely not with my wife an infant child on board.

I personally like to test any new boat before I ever take loved ones or family riding.

I prefer to have local knowledge before I ever transition a pass at night.

I have reported or listened to enough channel marker issues to be careful especially at night.

Last but not least if I had to make that transition at night, my plain would be to use low speed. Only enough to allow steerage.

Because I am using my phone and missing 5 finger tips please excuse any inadvertent typos.
Thanks

 

[psneeld]

If it happened within a few days ago.....

Nearly full moon, possibly a beautiful night as the wind dies off.

Depending on pickup time, 160 or so mile trip, figured home before late in a fast boat.

But upon arrival, a bit tired, get-home-itis, a cloud or two now covering that nice moonlight at the wrong time.... who knows what decisions were made before or during the final moments.

Reads like thousands of other mishaps if that's the way it went down.

It's hard for a person to imagine what is seen, heard, thought, planned, etc, etc by someone of vastly different experience than oneself.

Sitting around and guessing why they did something is hilarious if thinking an answer will be found. Sure picking apart accidents can be helpful, but only parts of the story in most cases are available to us unless you are on the accident investigation team with a thousand more facts to base a guess on.

Wondering why they would do such a dumb thing and not handle the situation like we would only makes sense when you heard their reasoning for doing it their way.... before then there may have been reason that could have caused many of us to do the same. To say you would NEVER cut a corer or do something the wrong way put you in a very special category of people (and I won't say it's necessarily positive).

 

[twistedtree]

Really no insurance?


I could see how you might misread the charts or the buoys if you are inexperienced. But if you are inexperienced, what are you doing out in such circumstances?


I know a guy who made a similar mistake, yet is a very experienced mariner. It was a mistake, and a bad one that cost him the boat. But he didn't blame it on the charts, even though you could easily see how the hazard could be overlooked.

 

[psneeld]

Really no insurance?


I could see how you might misread the charts or the buoys if you are inexperienced. But if you are inexperienced, what are you doing out in such circumstances?


I know a guy who made a similar mistake, yet is a very experienced mariner. It was a mistake, and a bad one that cost him the boat. But he didn't blame it on the charts, even though you could easily see how the hazard could be overlooked.

As a former rescue/salvaged guy..... it's often the inexperienced that ARE out in just about every condition mother nature has (even beautiful ones as they are the ones that bring out complacency).)

 

[sunchaser]

About a month ago TF had a similar thread with pictures of a capsized large vessel that had "cut" a corner entering the channel South of LaConner. A few days later another vessel had to be beached after striking a rock in a channel when entering a Looez Island anchorage.

In those two cases as well as this one discussions mentioned raster, vector, IPads, Navionics and chart plotters. So I've a question in this latest case - what do the paper charts show for channel, lights, buoys and channel center line?

 

[psneeld]

About a month ago TF had a similar thread with pictures of a capsized large vessel that had "cut" a corner entering the channel South of LaConner. A few days later another vessel had to be beached after striking a rock in a channel when entering a Looez Island anchorage.

In those two cases as well as this one discussions mentioned raster, vector, IPads, Navionics and chart plotters. So I've a question in this latest case - what do the paper charts show for channel, lights, buoys and channel center line?

Raster charts are "pictures" of paper charts and vice versa to a point.... they should be identical if they are from exactly the right time of updates. The images in post #8 are Raster.

https://www.timesmojo.com/what-is-the-advantages-of-raster-chart/


What is raster navigation chart?
marine. Rasterscan chart is a scanned reproduction of a paper chart. It is a computer-based system which uses charts issued by, or under authority of, national hydrographic offices, together with automatic continuous electronic positioning to provide an integrated navigational tool.

What is the difference between a raster and a vector chart?
Raster chart is Direct copy of paper chart whereas Vector chart is a computer generated charts. Raster Chart appears cluttered, Whereas In vector chart cluttering can be avoided. In Raster chart information can be only added only, Whereas in vector chart information can be added as well as subtracted.

 

[mvweebles]

If you zoom-out on the channel, there is a lateral light almost 4-miles east of the jetty. A long way out, but it is the charted, prudent channel established for deep draft vessels. If the Searay went inside (west of) the 5/6 buoys, definitely a risky move. Note, these are flashing 1-second lights and would be especially difficult to miss at night unless obscured by weather (which is why they are 1-second lights).

This is a major channel. In my opinion, under reasonably calm conditions, I would enter this at night without prior experience. Never a preference, and the destination berth may not be tenable at night/first-time, but this channel entrance is well marked and adequately sized. With radar/AIS, it is definitely manageable. I would not go 4-nms out to the Q Approach Light, but heading to the #3/#4 set of lights (4-secs) is just over 1/2nm east of the jetties.

As others have said, the facts are not clear and likely won't be. If pushed to guess, the Searay tried cutting the corner between the #5/#6 buoys and the jetties. I understand the temptation, but it would take less than 10-mins round trip to get to the #3/#4 buoys 0.5 nm east and line-up properly on the entrance channel.

Charts are amazing pieces of documentation. I am not going to diss the helmsman of the Searay, but will use the experience to reinforce a sense of prudence. Depending on your style of boating, simply saying "never enter a new channel at night" may not be realistic - for experienced mariners, many channels are reasonably safe at night under calm conditions. There are other channels which I wouldn't enter under perfect conditions (Depot Bay OR being one). The entrance into Lopez Island that Sunchaser cites is one that would give me serious pause without following a local.

There are always learning experiences in mishaps, but are often nuanced. Jumping to extreme conclusions is only partially helpful. Saying "Never enter a channel at night" is a perfectly safe rule, but does nothing to prepare you for the time when you are faced with a tough choice. There are sometimes ways to make it safer.

Peter

 

[Porgy]

I’ve not run this inlet but have several others similar to it day and night. Recognizing we have no idea what happened but assuming the issue is that the boater cut the corner between the jetty and G5 as some are speculating, I can say with one hundred percent confidence that I would NEVER, EVER cut inside G5. We ALWAYS approach the inlet channels a half to a mile out or more, line up the the channel buoys then proceed. We would be around Fl 3&4 and would easily notice QF 5&6 and then Fl 7&8 inside.

It gives us time to assess the effects of the flood or ebb, sea state and littoral current and anticipate any course corrections. It allows us to see what traffic is inside. I also do not put that much faith in the accuracy of any chart, especially if all I need to do to avoid unpleasantness is to go 600 feet out of my way in the open ocean.

I am quite capable of and do make mistakes, making every effort to avoid delusions that I am an expert. I don’t have a resume that runs a ream of paper to trot out multiple times in every single thread but, I am certain I would not make this particular error.

 

[psneeld]

The list of what may have been going through that skippers mind is endless.

Examining the few facts we have, it may certainly point to the probably of cutting across a submerged jetty. Heck, people do it all the time.

A good possibility was that some small boat fisherman may have cut inside of the buoys because of superb understanding of exactly where he was. The Sea Ray skipper, seeing the stern light may have followed it losing situational awareness just long enough.

I saw that mistake all the time even with very experienced skippers.

Idea of went wrong? Sure.... Having a clue of what the guy was thinking or actually did? Not a one.

 

[mvweebles]

The list of what may have been going through that skippers mind is endless.

Examining the few facts we have, it may certainly point to the probably of cutting across a submerged jetty. Heck, people do it all the time.

A good possibility was that some small boat fisherman may have cut inside of the buoys because of superb understanding of exactly where he was. The Sea Ray skipper, seeing the stern light may have followed it losing situational awareness just long enough.

I saw that mistake all the time even with very experienced skippers.

Idea of went wrong? Sure.... Having a clue of what the guy was thinking or actually did? Not a one.

Agreed. But I think some post mortem is appropriate even without the full causation. Resisting the temptation to cut the corner is helpful, especially when you do the math and even at displacement speeds would incur barely a 10 minute delay. Saying 'never enter at night' (as others have said) is incomplete - implies the issue was running at night, not making a decision to cut a corner (if thats what happened). Also means the inference is cutting corner in daylight is acceptable which its not.

Zooming out and looking at the entire approach - situational awareness as Psneeld calls it - and making intelligent risk/benefit decisions. Running out many miles to the sea buoy isn't necessary. But there is a safe nighttime approach as long as helmsman is a reasonably experienced operator (and conditions are relatively calm).

Peter

 

[Benthic2]

If anyone wants to see the chart for themselves to zoom in/out, look north or south etc...

https://www.charts.noaa.gov/OnLineViewer/11491.shtml

 

[psneeld]

Post #34 if one doesn't recall...

Sure picking apart accidents can be helpful, but only parts of the story in most cases are available to us unless you are on the accident investigation team with a thousand more facts to base a guess on.

Situational awareness is a globally and widely accepted term in crew resource management and accident investigation.

Looking through the lens of an experience operator and thinking what one would have done in "generic circumstances" is always an issue when discussing human factors in accidents/mishaps.....

The more it is discussed, the less I think the charts used have little to do with whatever decision was made.

 

[mvweebles]

My intent is not to dissect the accident. For all I know, the helmsman was doing everything right and had a massive heart attack and drove the boat onto the rocks. I hope not of course, but many things are possible.

But that doesn't mean the learning experience is paused. From the nature of comments on forums after accidents, many people state some flavor "I would never do X/Y/Z therefore this would never happen to me." That's a mistake.

"I would never cut a corner." Well, in this instance, the sea-buoy is over 10-miles out. Arguably, entering the channel anywhere else is 'cutting the corner.' How do you make a safe decision? Careful study of charts and notes, with recognition that on e-charts, details get hidden at different zoom levels; especially smaller MFDs. This is no more than a 5-10 minute effort.

"Never enter an unknown harbor at night." Great advice, and very workable for day-sailors. But for most who cruise, its gonna happen sooner or later. What you do about it is up to you, but it's not a binary never-do-it decision. Under fair weather with a reasonably experienced helmsman with some nighttime running experience, this particular channel is not a difficult approach.

"Wait until we know the facts." sort of a cop-out. Of course there are many possible explanations, but that doesn't mean you can't look at likely scenarios. In this case, a strong contender is cutting the corner and not realizing there was a submerged jetty. Rather than just study the chart at #5/#6, what would have been a prudent approach? That's a solid learning experience even if the cause of the Searay grounding was something else.

Years ago, a delivery-skipper mentor of mine beached a boat that ultimately resulted in loss of life. I really looked up to him - past circumnavigator with a ton of miles. Lot of armchair second guessing from internet chatter. All I could think of was "Jeez, if it happened to him, I have no chance....."

Peter

 

[mike66]

All I could think of was "Jeez, if it happened to him, I have no chance....."
Amen

 

[DDW]

My philosophy would be "never enter an unfamiliar harbor at night", but if circumstances make it unavoidable, then "be extremely careful and follow all the rules and buoys". Like aircraft accidents, most boating accidents of this type are not the result of a single mistake, rather the compounding of a chain of mistakes ending in disaster. All speculation, but plausible:

1) new and unfamiliar boat, therefore likely unfamiliar navigational equipment and charting

2) route planning resulting in arrival at destination at night

3) failure to consult at least two sources of navigational data

4) failure to obey buoys to the letter without local knowledge (not just 5 & 6 but also 3 & 4)

5) failure to pause and stand off, when site picture, depth sounder, etc did not match expected position

You kinda hafta make all 5 of those to end up on the rocks there.

 

[mvweebles]

My philosophy would be "never enter an unfamiliar harbor at night", but if circumstances make it unavoidable, then "be extremely careful and follow all the rules and buoys". Like aircraft accidents, most boating accidents of this type are not the result of a single mistake, rather the compounding of a chain of mistakes ending in disaster. All speculation, but plausible:



1) new and unfamiliar boat, therefore likely unfamiliar navigational equipment and charting



2) route planning resulting in arrival at destination at night



3) failure to consult at least two sources of navigational data



4) failure to obey buoys to the letter without local knowledge (not just 5 & 6 but also 3 & 4)



5) failure to pause and stand off, when site picture, depth sounder, etc did not match expected position



You kinda hafta make all 5 of those to end up on the rocks there.

I think running at night is a practiced skill. One of my first paying gigs was captain of a 84 passenger dinner/booze cruise boat on SF Bay. We of course ran a lot of evening cruises, but I already knew the waters pretty well - evening runs to Jack London Square (Oakland) were popular with friends. More recently, I've run a lot at night locally on the ICW in stretches I know fairly well. Frankly, I like running at night but it's different. Much more difficult to tell distances - stuff seems much closer than during the day. And there are many places I would avoid at night that I would easily enter during daylight.

Another learning experience story. A very good friend took an Irwin 52 sailboat from San Diego to Ft Lauderdale. He invited me and my wife to head to the Bahamas - first stop Bimini. We were delayed leaving and arrived outside the channel into Bimini at almost dark. It's a narrow, unlit channel. He wanted to go ahead in - he felt bad about the alternative which was to anchor in the open roadstead even though it was calm. His girlfriend put her foot down and said "for two years we had a rule to not enter harbors like this at night. Why would we change that now?" She was right and we did fine at anchor that night.

Peter

 

[Shrew]

IMHO this looks pretty well marked to me. I acknowledge that there aren't markers at the very end of the viewable jetty, however there are clearly lit ATONS along, and well beyond the hazard to navigation. It shouldn't be too hard to line yourself up in that channel, even at night, provided there wasn't fog or decent rain.

At the risk of making assumptions, it looks like the operator simply either wasn't in the channel, or decided to cut the corner. It's a simple mistake.

 

[ABfish]

There but for the grace of God go I...

I know three boaters who have hit submerged jetties in my home waters. Two were due to a lack of knowledge, the other was by a very experienced captain who experienced a momentary lack of situational awareness.

All incidents were minor and only resulted in embarrassment and damaged props or lower units.

 

[Tkgc]

I never said I would not transition through a pass at night.

I did say.

" I prefer to have local knowledge before I ever transition a pass at night."

My definition of local knowledge

" First hand familiarity with a body of water that goes beyond what may be found on a chart;"

I stated one of my rules which is I "prefer" local knowledge before I ever transition a pass at night.

Pensacola pass can get a bit sporty with a southwind and out going tide. The worst place to enter is in the channel.
Locals come in on the east side, outside the 3rd sand bar. Cut across the bar inside the pass (8' deep at low tide) on the east side. Then if headed west cut across the channel quickly.
The #1 bouy is about 5 miles out very few start there.
Even the sport fishing boats use a version of this approach. Except they stay just off the bar inside the pass it drops to 40 plus quick. Still not in the channel, but outside the sporty section.

However any approach from the west is a whole different story. No rocks but very shallow with breakers as far as 3/4 of a mile offshore. Except on a north wind or calm day.

Sebastian inlet is in a whole different class of sporty.

The point?
I have an incredible amount of information about Pensacola pass because of years and years of fishing and sailing in and around this area.
I have been at the pass at 3 am headed out and will come in anytime day or night.
I have even gone there at night in bad weather to help a friend.

I had a fishing boat dry stored in Port Canaveral. For years when I lived in Cocoa Beach.
That pass is great easy in and out day or night.

I have been through sebastian inlet on my boat and with others many time. Even surfed monster hole 30 plus years ago.
I would never go through that inlet at night and you can quote me on that unless it was life and death. In which case I would have an escort.
Boats capsize alot in that inlet.
Many years ago a cuddy cabin flipped in that inlet.
It ended up on the beach north side of the jetty in knee deep water.
The surfers where told by the people fishing on the jetty that no one was spotted in the water.
After unsuccessfully trying to flip the boat over.
A surfer ran to his truck and grabbed a cut quick saw.
Thats a gas powered saw that cuts concrete or re bar.
He cut the hull open in the front where the cabin should be.
3 souls were pulled out alive. A man a woman and a child.

I have learned a lot in the short time I've been a member.
I am grateful for a place to come learn, read and share.

I stated in my intro.
I do not know it all!
Never will!
I do know the benefits of caution.
I also never go boating on a laptop.
When teaching young people I like to talk about the difference between, ignorant and stupid.
Ignorant is you don't know.
Stupid is you can't learn.
I know a painter with 6 dui(s)
THATS NOT IGNORANT!

Anyone who spend time boating has seen plenty of examples of both.

 

[DDW]

Running at night with GPS chartplotting and radar (and AIS) is certainly a different experience than a paper chart, binoculars, and a depth sounder. It is still a time to mind the buoyage and stay in channels. Eyes are not as useful and easily confused by background lights, even in familiar settings.

 

[Adopo]

It's been about 25 years since I've had an infant child. I would like to think, I would have taken possession of my new (to me) vessel and spent the night in Cape Canaveral and proceeded in the very early am. Either by myself or with a friend. Definitely not with my wife an infant child on board.

I personally like to test any new boat before I ever take loved ones or family riding.

I prefer to have local knowledge before I ever transition a pass at night.

I have reported or listened to enough channel marker issues to be careful especially at night.

Last but not least if I had to make that transition at night, my plain would be to use low speed. Only enough to allow steerage.

Because I am using my phone and missing 5 finger tips please excuse any inadvertent typos.
Thanks

Wow what happened to your five finger tips? That sounds like it hurt. And all that makes plenty of sense to me.

People do make mistakes, imagine how this guy feels today having lost his boat and endangered his friends and family? I'm sure he's learned and it will not happen again. Hindsight is always 20/10 and it's seeing this in advance that is important as many have posted. Like Kathryns Report, it's good to see this posted so we can be reminded. So thanks for posting this.

I visit Katheryns Report every week to remind myself that Aviation is unforgiving as mentioned here. Saturday, while at the Clemson football game, the airport director at KAND told us about the Barron that was lost in our local lake around 12:30. Yes he's dead. It was heartbreaking to hear that his wife kept calling to see if he had arrived yet. And if you think some of the comments here are harsh, you should read the comments on Kathryns Report especially when there is death involved which often is the case, and the family members post their responses. Bottom line is everyone wants to know what happened, and why, and to avoid it ever happening to them. As some have indicated, it will never happen to them.

Kathryn's Report

Kathryn's Report

Speaking of all of this, and not being a tech guy, why isn't it possible to shoot a signal in front of a boat? If it could be done I am sure it would have been right? I know there is forward looking sonar if that is the correct terminology, but seems it is not that good?

 

[wkearney99]

A point not mentioned is that your chart plotter may omit some data if your zoom setting is too far out. I had that happen when transiting through the East River when delivering our current boat from RI to MD. Can't recall the specific spot but neither I nor the captain I had along with me were familiar enough to the older NavNet3D units that were on the boat at the time. Zoomed out as we'd been for most of the trip behind Long Island was not ideal as we got into shallower waters.

And using the navionics web portal for the St. Johns inlet area shows how information is sometimes not shown as effectively as you might want. You really do need to zoom in, in, in and out, out, out across the whole area to get a clearer idea of what's actually charted.
https://webapp.navionics.com/#boating/search@13&key=k|oxDr|roN

 

[wkearney99]

Speaking of zoomed in... MINES.
https://webapp.navionics.com/#boating/search@15&key=oqpxDne{oN

 

[wkearney99]

Speaking of all of this, and not being a tech guy, why isn't it possible to shoot a signal in front of a boat? If it could be done I am sure it would have been right? I know there is forward looking sonar if that is the correct terminology, but seems it is not that good?

There have been various attempts at this over the years, but anything at anything even remotely resembling a reasonable price-point or installation location/size has required nearly dead-slow speed in order to get any decent data. Which is what you'd have to be going anyway in order to get the boat stopped fast enough to avoid problems.

 

[psneeld]

There is a huge difference in those with experience to know what is important to them running an inlet at night or limited vis and that of someone who has been boating a long time but isn't all that experienced at running inlets at night.

We all can say what is important and what isn't (many of us would disagree based on technique)...but why some chose a path that leads to major error is hard to fathom/explain by those with the experience.

Even the best make numerous errors in nav/judgement along the way.... they just catch their errors before they become critical.

Have seen that repeatedly in casual nav situations, flight simulators and real missions for decades.

 

[High Wire]

Who knows what happened? We're all just guessing. For all we know he could have plotted a route on his IPhone while bouncing along in the dark without reading glasses.
A long time ago there was a pilot who landed his jet one mile short of the target runway into SF Bay. When asked why he did this he said "Ashok F'd up!"

 

[Benthic2]

One angle that I don't think has been mentioned is the time needed to gather information. The boat buying process is not instantaneous. You have a visit to just kick the tires and look around.....you have an engine survey....a hull survey....you arrange insurance and financing........We are talking 2-4 weeks of lead time knowing that at some point in the future you are going to have to enter your destination harbor. That is plenty of time for research and recon. Visit in the day time.......go for a sunset cruise out of that harbor.......walk the docks and talk to some commercial fishermen......spend a night at the marina bar.....

There is a HUGE difference between: "we need to enter that harbor now".......and "we will have to enter that harbor in a few weeks"