Advise: Best company for getting a "6-Pack Captains License".

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I took a 100 ton Masters course in February. It was a lot of fun and I learned a lot despite decades of boating experience and deep interest in knowing the rules. My license is "pending security vetting". I don't plan to do any commercial work other than deliveries now and then with a friend that holds a 3000 ton license.
 
David Hope said:
Checking in to getting my 6-pack captains license and looking for any advise. Programs, on-line schools, etc. I may not ever use it with paying passengers, etc but it will help me be a better/safer captain of my boat.
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A bit of advice is to call it by it's legal name, the Uninspected vessel license. CG really doesn't like it being called a "six pack" license.
 
I proctored the local exams for Mariners Learning System for several years. I didn't take their course so I don't have good details, to but the course materials looks very good and the final exam score averages were very high, like 98-99%. Many scored 100% on all. Much higher scores than I saw in my class room courses. But... Not being involved in the business end, I have no idea how many people bought the course and gave up before finishing. In 20 years of running class rooms, I only had one student do that. MLS now does the finals online. Seems like a bad idea to me, but the CG has approved them to do it.
 
If you have to go to one of those schools to get a 6pack then you don’t have enough experience to be licensed. They teach how to pass the stupid test, which ain’t very hard. What they don’t teach is any real seamanship.
 
I've never understood the common sentiment that USCG licenses don't qualify experience. A university degree doesn't qualify experience (doesn't even quantify it) yet no one complains. For example, most hiring managers hiring an accountant would seek much more experience than just holding a university degree in business or accounting. Yet threads like these constantly lament that the USCG doesn't evaluate efficacy of practical experience.

For folks who have been BS'd by a lame Skipper holding a USCG cert, that's on you. There are plenty of ways to evaluate experience.

I took the license prep course 25 years ago. I learned a lot and found the time useful. It made me a better mariner as it provided a solid foundation to accelerate my on-water experiences.

Peter
 
With these most basic of courses, the USCG gets to take a look at what kind of experience the person has by their sea time sheets..... it tells how much the time the person was an actual operator, it tells what size vessels, it tells if the person was under the eye of another licensed captain, where and possibly under what conditions the person got the experience, and more. Guaranteed expertise evaluation? Heck no, but even a resume' of professional captains doesn't really tell the story without follow-up recommendations from previous employers.

We saw that all the time in the assistance tow business. Young guys or retired guys trying to build time with so little real experience they couldn't handle the most basic of assignments. Heck, we had a retired senior Navy officer with 10 years of merchant mariner experience as 3rd mate on an Atlantic crossing car carrier. Might have been good at that level seamanship but was gone before the end of one season at assistance towing. Small boat handling, systems/repair and small boat common sense just wasn't there.

The courses are what they are and people are people. Sometimes it all works out but it's not the perfect solution at turning out top, notch mariners all the time.
 
I used Sea School. Even after years of recreational boating and I’m someone that wants to know as much about stuff as possible, l learned a lot. Formal training can open your eyes to subjects you had not given so much thought to.
 
I would think the benefit of a greater knowledge of the ColRegs that come with a license, would out weigh the burden of the "higher standard". In other words even if you are held to a higher standard, you are less likely to be involved in an accident if you know the rules better than the average boater as a result of the course.
 
Benthic2 said:
I would think the benefit of a greater knowledge of the ColRegs that come with a license, would out weigh the burden of the "higher standard". In other words even if you are held to a higher standard, you are less likely to be involved in an accident if you know the rules better than the average boater as a result of the course.
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Good thought...but it takes even a better understanding of the rules to be one who should be held to a higher standard. Many responses I see here on TF about the COLREGS/NAVRULES are just regurgitations of a rule or one or 2 remembered. It is really a cobweb of understanding of what is necessary to stay out of even potential collisions and when you have to bite the bullet and hold course despite ever nerve screaming "do something!"..

That also only comes with really understanding a vessel's handling characteristics.....something I can tell by many posts that too many aren't there yet.
 
Benthic2 said:
I would think the benefit of a greater knowledge of the ColRegs that come with a license, would out weigh the burden of the "higher standard". In other words even if you are held to a higher standard, you are less likely to be involved in an accident if you know the rules better than the average boater as a result of the course.
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I know of no empirical evidence of a "Higher Standard." We all know the saying "ignorance of the law is no excuse " I'm sure there have been clever lawyers who have successfully argued a licensed captain should have known better, but I just haven't seen evidence that a recreational boater is given quarter whereas his/her licensed counterpart in similar situations with a license is not. I might be wrong, but I'd guess it's a bunch of online hooey.

Peter
 
There are countless investigations by the USCG that have found the commercial captain at partial fault despite the complete stupidity of a recreational boater.

But is that the "higher standard" that is most often discussed?

I have found the discussion usually centers around a licensed captain aboard their own boat or some friends that isn't necessarily "exercising" their ticket but something happens and the USCG focuses on that the licensed captain should have known better or intervened on their friends actions.. These are the examples I have never seen or read about being "held to a higher standard."
 
captmikem said:
50 and 100 ton licenses are fairly easy to get, simple tests that you can get books to study for, and all multiple choice questions. If you can discipline yourself to study you can easily pass the tests. I have used MET books for 2000 ton and found them to be easy to use and very useful.
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2000 ton is well into the category of a serious credential.
 
Pretty sure that is a 200T credential as there are no 2000T credentials that I know of. They go 100/200/500/1600/unlimited.
 
mvweebles said:
I know of no empirical evidence of a "Higher Standard." We all know the saying "ignorance of the law is no excuse " I'm sure there have been clever lawyers who have successfully argued a licensed captain should have known better, but I just haven't seen evidence that a recreational boater is given quarter whereas his/her licensed counterpart in similar situations with a license is not. I might be wrong, but I'd guess it's a bunch of online hooey.

Peter
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Totally agree, Peter. This one is 99% internet legend, yet gets repeated forever.
 
guy with a boat said:
Totally agree, Peter. This one is 99% internet legend, yet gets repeated forever.
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I have read of one, maybe two, instances where a licensed captain being held to a higher standard in court. I wish I had kept a copy of the discussion....

I can't remember if it was on Trawler Forum or Cruising Forum.:(

In any case, it does not seem to happen very often and is a low probability event. One is still better of with the knowledge so one can avoid an incident in the first place.
 
Still see a clear difference between operating under the license and not.

The most recurring debate on this topic that I remember is NOT the difference in a collision between a recreational skipper and a commercial operator but a licensed captain operating his own boat during a collision or aboard a friend's boat but failed to intervene prior to a collision (that or similar type circumstance).

I feel it is important to differentiate when describing this "higher standard" in a discussion....though it's hard to imagine.... it seems sometimes the discussion DOES NOT seem to differentiate.

I think the importance is that people thinking of getting their license should not fear the "higher standard" myth but should be aware there are a few , rare, whatever instances that civil actions might bring it up. We all could be held to a "higher standard" just based on many, many things.... like the things we list to insurance agencies to get a better rate being a lower risk and all.......
 
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A judge is going to let in evidence of a license. A defense attorney claiming that his client doesn't understand a situation any better after taking courses and obtaining a CG license has a bad argument. What will a jury think? We have some clue here. About 50/50 will say the captain should have known better than the average Joe.

I started the license class but then shipped out. Never went back and finished it. Never missed it.

I would argue that, unless one is looking for employment, there are better courses to take. Nice if the skipper can recite the ColRegs in her sleep. Even better would be if she understands hypothermia and can suture.
 
Don't mean to step on the main subject of this thread, but seems like it's coming to an end, so think it's a logical place.

I fully understand plotting and passed the test, but think it's somewhat archaic. I believe there is some value in understanding it and gives you a basic understanding of the physics of nature than affect piloting. But who honestly does it anymore? I have at least 4 gps's on my boat not including phones. I can't think of an instance where I'm going to get out the parrallels and deviders and plot a course. If I'm on a mechanical diesel and get struck by lightning with no electronics that still has propulsion, I probably still won't have the TVMDC data to accurately plot anything. I'm going to dig around and find an old chart, guess my approximate location, and head for the nearest safe port and look for a navigational aide to confirm my position. Maybe I'm a bad boater, but guess that's what 99% of the boaters are going to do. Let the beatings begin.
 
TBill36 said:
Don't mean to step on the main subject of this thread, but seems like it's coming to an end, so think it's a logical place.

I fully understand plotting and passed the test, but think it's somewhat archaic. I believe there is some value in understanding it and gives you a basic understanding of the physics of nature than affect piloting. But who honestly does it anymore? I have at least 4 gps's on my boat not including phones. I can't think of an instance where I'm going to get out the parrallels and deviders and plot a course. If I'm on a mechanical diesel and get struck by lightning with no electronics that still has propulsion, I probably still won't have the TVMDC data to accurately plot anything. I'm going to dig around and find an old chart, guess my approximate location, and head for the nearest safe port and look for a navigational aide to confirm my position. Maybe I'm a bad boater, but guess that's what 99% of the boaters are going to do. Let the beatings begin.
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No beating from me... but you sound like someone who does know how to plot and therefore doesn't need "everything" to get somewhere safely.

That is true in many poiints of life. The more you know, the less you get lost in the clutter of conveniences that surround us today.

It's all the "old school" knowledge that many have that makes them confident to do the things we do.
 
TBill36 said:
Don't mean to step on the main subject of this thread, but seems like it's coming to an end, so think it's a logical place.

I fully understand plotting and passed the test, but think it's somewhat archaic. I believe there is some value in understanding it and gives you a basic understanding of the physics of nature than affect piloting. But who honestly does it anymore? I have at least 4 gps's on my boat not including phones. I can't think of an instance where I'm going to get out the parrallels and deviders and plot a course. If I'm on a mechanical diesel and get struck by lightning with no electronics that still has propulsion, I probably still won't have the TVMDC data to accurately plot anything. I'm going to dig around and find an old chart, guess my approximate location, and head for the nearest safe port and look for a navigational aide to confirm my position. Maybe I'm a bad boater, but guess that's what 99% of the boaters are going to do. Let the beatings begin.
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I understand your point, but sometimes foundational knowledge helps build understanding - it trains your mind. It's why it still makes sense to teach multiplication tables in school even everyone has a robust calculator in their pocket along with a GPS.

Peter
 
mvweebles said:
I understand your point, but sometimes foundational knowledge helps build understanding - it trains your mind. It's why it still makes sense to teach multiplication tables in school even everyone has a robust calculator in their pocket along with a GPS.

Peter
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agree.......
 
My health is gone and I cannot manage a boat so I am giving away stuff as I find it - -

I have a "Mariners Learning System Captain in a Box" course which includes Six-Pack, Master, Towing, and Sail all in the original box with the plotting goodies and practice chart. I bought it in 2017, for $720. I read it all and passed the tests first try. Great materials.

The full course, in like-new condition, is free to a good home - or even a bad home. All you have to do is pick it up and say hello. I live near New Haven CT and am home all the time.
I could ship it - but not sure of the hassle to wrap and take to USPO as I don't get around easily.
frown.gif


I am happy to help some guy looking to improve his nautical skills, or take the tests and get the red Merchant Marine passport book. PM me with email or SMS number.
 
psneeld said:
This subject of higher standard has been debated often. The general consensus is no you are not as EVERY captain technically has the same requirements/standard of care on the water.

However, I have finally grown to believe after getting old and wiser, that USCG administrative review, civil law cases and criminal ones can all go in different directions (sometimes strangely so). So there is some merit in thinking the "higher standard" may come into play.

Here is one of many articles on the subject explaining .... Are Boaters with Coast Guard Licenses Held to a Higher Liability Standard? – The Log.

I say go all in...know so much and have so much experience that you can justify your actions (except gross negligence) to look like you performed the only actions possible. Happened to me once in a civil trial where the lawyers gave up trying to trip up my NAVRULES knowledge and gave up. My boss/ins co. wound up being the only defendants to win their case of multiple defendants. :oldman:
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I have heard the "greater liability" or "greater scrutiny" theory many times. The article you posted entertains the notion, but in the abstract. Does anyone have any examples of this theory actually happening? If not, isn't it just BS?
 
I think the trouble is lumping the concept across several possibilities.
1. Licensed pro captain versus rec captain in collision. Pro captain is held to a higher standard even though rec captain held to know the same rules. Commonly read results of NTSB/USCG determinations but not going to look up a bunch to post.

2. Licensed rec captain collides with unlicensed rec captain. USCG doesn't pursue license on the one because he is not operating a vessel requiring a license. Have never seen the USCG pursue a license in this case.

3. Licensed rec captain collides with unlicensed rec captain. Unlicensed captain, insurance company or injured passenger brings civil suit. Hard to believe a jury would not hold the licensed captain to a higher degree...however ...while I have seen them sued, cannot tell what swayed the jury the most.

The article I posted was in the abstract, but I thought it does point out the difference of when the license may come into play between exercising the license, civil cases versus administrative and even some legal ones.
 
I figure if an issue is discussed for 20+ years and no real concensus is achieved, its not a real thing. Sure, there may be a few examples that someone can cite but its like the guy who claims he doesn't wear a seatbelt because his cousin's friend's girlfriend got decapitated...... Time pretty much answers most rumors.

As for the few anecdotal evidence examples that people come up with, don't discount the possibility that the licensensed captain really was at fault. ( see Costa Concordia, Exxon Valdez, Andrea Doria, etc ! ) Any data set that is large enough will have examples of almost any outcome. That doesn't mean they are likely or probably.......just possible.
 
a master ticket, yacht master, six-pack - all are a credential of the holder as judged by a respected or governmental third party. This credential is for the benefit of employers, passengers, insurers, lenders, and vendors of the credential holder to signify a certain level of proficiency and experience operating certain vessels and territories (e.g. 50T master, 500T master, tender operator, unlimited oceans master, coastal waters, inland towing, sailing endorsement etc etc)

This credential or license is not for the benefit of other boat operators or vessels in the area of the licensed master. There is no pennant, light, or daymark to fly that a licensed skipper is on a vessel, and it wouldn't make a difference to other vessels anyway. All vessels follow the same Rules and ColRegs. All operators of vessels, whether licensed for commercial cargo or passenger service, are required to know and follow the same rules.

my Master ticket gave me satisfaction of passing the tests, as well as constant discount on insurance. The license allowed me to buy, insure and operate a 65 yacht without further question of my ability by the insurance company or lender. the license allowed me to negotiate with charter company or owner regarding delivering a vessel without them needing to question me a lot about my experience.

There is no "higher standard" for licensed operators.
 
psneeld said:
I think the trouble is lumping the concept across several possibilities.
1. Licensed pro captain versus rec captain in collision. Pro captain is held to a higher standard even though rec captain held to know the same rules. Commonly read results of NTSB/USCG determinations but not going to look up a bunch to post.

2. Licensed rec captain collides with unlicensed rec captain. USCG doesn't pursue license on the one because he is not operating a vessel requiring a license. Have never seen the USCG pursue a license in this case.

3. Licensed rec captain collides with unlicensed rec captain. Unlicensed captain, insurance company or injured passenger brings civil suit. Hard to believe a jury would not hold the licensed captain to a higher degree...however ...while I have seen them sued, cannot tell what swayed the jury the most.

The article I posted was in the abstract, but I thought it does point out the difference of when the license may come into play between exercising the license, civil cases versus administrative and even some legal ones.
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Another I've seen speculated about is a licensed captain aboard a boat being skippered by an unlicensed captain... and if an accident happens, the licensed captain being held at fault. Without much regard to other participants (other boats, etc.) in the situation.

Never have found any recorded instance of that happening.

-Chris
 
ranger58sb said:
Another I've seen speculated about is a licensed captain aboard a boat being skippered by an unlicensed captain... and if an accident happens, the licensed captain being held at fault. Without much regard to other participants (other boats, etc.) in the situation.

Never have found any recorded instance of that happening.

-Chris
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These stories are promulgated by timid people who catastrophize infinitesimal risk as justification to remain comfortably in the bleachers watching life go by.

The good news is, with possible exception of civil service, it is rare to find these types of people in leadership positions.

Peter
 
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