AIS and enforcement

[CharlieO.]

https://loosecannon.substack.com/p/ais-for-safety-they-said-now-ais

Interesting read, I know this has been touched on in other threads.

 

[tiltrider1]

My reasons for not running AIS are due to stalking. However, I see lazy law enforcement as exasperating the problem. I also believe this is just the beginning and AIS units will start disappearing from recreational boats.

 

[CharlieO.]

Not a whole lot different than if police used your cars GPS to issue speeding tickets?

 

[KnotYet]

Not a whole lot different than if police used your cars GPS to issue speeding tickets?

Only if you intensionally broadcast your GPS' output to alert other drivers.

 

[CharlieO.]

Only if you intensionally broadcast your GPS' output to alert other drivers.

Yes, I guess that'll come with the safety of self driving cars. ?

 

[GFC]

My reasons for not running AIS are due to stalking. However, I see lazy law enforcement as exasperating the problem.

Tiltrider, can you elaborate on your comment about lazy law enforcement?

Thanks, and Happy New Year

 

[tiltrider1]

Law enforcement looks at the internet and sees who is broadcasting either being in a restricted area or traveling at excessive speed and then mails a ticket. All those who are not broadcasting never receive a ticket. If law enforcement was out there, everyone would receive a ticket. The end result is not boats slowing down just everyone turning off AIS.

So, now we have created an incentive to not voluntarily broadcast AIS. Sending an educational letter to an AIS broadcaster is good, sending a warnIng or a ticket is stupid. It means AIS’s will turn off. More life will be lost and more government money will be spent searching for boats. No more whales will be saved.

 

[SteveK]

More lives will be lost if less people broadcast AIS, Why?

 

[O C Diver]

There are 2 parts to this:

Do you think the government should be allowed to regulate the speed of waters they claim as part of the USA? Do you think it will make a difference in changing the trajectory of the whale population?
BTW, how self focused do you have to be to claim the speed limit should only apply to commercial vessels? While I don't know the percentage of commercial vessels in this area, I'm guessing the ones exceeding 10 knots is probably under 10% of all the boats in the area. The percentage of commercial vessels exceeding 25 knots is <1%.

Regarding AIS as the form of identifying law breakers, would you prefer the equivalent of a radar traffic camera that takes your transom picture with the speed superimposed on the picture? How would you like to see NOAA hire contractors to fly planes and do the above radar traffic enforcement?

I look at this issue as fighting the law not the enforcement. If we all turn our AIS transmitters off, NOAA will switch to a more efficient form of enforcement.

Ted

 

[Old Sea Dog]

If the government is so worried about right whales and other sea life, why are they disregarding their own study advising against offshore wind turbine farms? Specifically of Cox Ledge?
Check latest from gCaptain.

 

[GFC]

Law enforcement looks at the internet and sees who is broadcasting either being in a restricted area or traveling at excessive speed and then mails a ticket. All those who are not broadcasting never receive a ticket. If law enforcement was out there, everyone would receive a ticket.

Might I suggest that law enforcement is stretched pretty thin these days and writing tickets for exceeding a speed limit they might or might not believe in may not be a high priority for them. Given their reduced numbers, they likely have tasks that are a much higher priority.

Kind of like the US law enforcement groups that have vowed not to enforce the anti-gun laws that, on their face, violate the 2nd Amendment.

 

[tiltrider1]

Might I suggest that law enforcement is stretched pretty thin these days and writing tickets for exceeding a speed limit they might or might not believe in may not be a high priority for them. Given their reduced numbers, they likely have tasks that are a much higher priority.

Kind of like the US law enforcement groups that have vowed not to enforce the anti-gun laws that, on their face, violate the 2nd Amendment.

There is no logic in this statement. By only using AIS data for enforcement you will kill the voluntary use of AIS. These are extremely short sighted decisions being made by people who for some reason feel its ok to destroy long term safety for all. It doesn't take much thought to realize that issuing tickets based off a voluntary broadcast system will only end up in no one voluntarily broadcasting AIS.

I have no issue with using AIS to send educational letters to people. Most will comply once they are educated. Only perusing those who broadcast AIS and justifying it by saying we don't have the budget to be present only means its not important and we will screw with those who are volunteering to be safe so we look like we did something. This just sends a clear message to boaters to turn off the AIS and go full throttle, whales aren't important or they would be trying harder to do the right thing.

 

[draakken]

with the zone being 20+ miles wide in some places, which is outside the 12 nm limit, but clearly within the EEZ, are they somehow saying harm of marine animals is enforceable under the EEZ ?


I would imagine for many sport fishermen this is going to kill day trips out to the gulf stream, at 10kts, it could take 2 or more hours each way to cross the zone.


10 kts, speed limit is that V or VMG?

 

[catalinajack]

My reasons for not running AIS are due to stalking. However, I see lazy law enforcement as exasperating the problem. I also believe this is just the beginning and AIS units will start disappearing from recreational boats.

Stalking? Do you really think anyone cares who you are or where you go?

 

[RT Firefly]

 

[psneeld]

The misunderstanding of law enforcement, especially maritime, is pretty obvious.

Absolute enfocement is a police state, none at all often brings about an uproar also.

The legal challenges through the years twist and tun both the law and the ability to enforce it.

There are many professions, probably all but one or two that I don't understand. I don't care to an I usually avoid harsh criticism of or even dwell discussing them.other than I haven't come across a perfect one yet.

Some parts of maritime law enforcement I don't understand eifher, but for the most part I do and the "low hanging fruit" aporoach in this case I don't think will pan out like some are posting, at either end of the spectrum.

 

[Old Sea Dog]

Stalking? Do you really think anyone cares who you are or where you go?

You would be surprised......

 

[Hippocampus]

The dynamic is safety of people v safety of right whales. All to often, especially with newbie crew, AIS has been extremely helpful. Especially transmit when commercial craft have called that watch stander to inform them of developing unsafe crossings. I’ve further have heard innumerable vhf conversations between commercial craft and recreational boaters where the commercial operator had difficulties identifying the at risk recreational boater by name due to the absence of AIS transmission. In short people here seem to think an alert watchstander with knowledge of colregs makes AIS an unnecessary expense and intrusion. However I’m firmly convinced a transceiver enhances safety. Unfortunately regardless of the size of the vessel some operators are either not knowledgeable or simply don’t care
Lost of transmit and decrease in purchases of transceivers will decrease safety.

To me what’s further disturbing is with the extremely low population of right whales they are under near constant surveillance. Expense of enhancing that surveillance is a fraction of the cost of the loss of commercial activity this rule is likely to produce. With such surveillance even existing surface governmental surface craft could patrol or be sent out to interdict any recreational or commercial vessels as they approached a right whale. Such zones could be as small as a diameter of a few nautical miles in single digits rather than the expansive zones in the current rule.

In short this is a poorly designed rule with multiple unintended consequences.

 

[KnotYet]

If the government is so worried about right whales and other sea life, why are they disregarding their own study advising against offshore wind turbine farms? Specifically of Cox Ledge?
Check latest from gCaptain.

The whales in question are at the brink of literal extinction. Prolonging the life of
a single individual may, according to 'their own study', improve their chances.
Are you proposing that they ignore that study or just conflating two distinct ideas?

 

[Hippocampus]

Let’s hypothesize our own system to protect these creatures.
The current governmental systems to protect our coastal waters enhanced by current research systems studying these whales could identify their real time locations. This would require communication between our military, CG and research agencies but not insurmountable. If resources are limited the entire 350 individuals need not be under constant surveillance but rather breeding females and their calves. This would decrease numbers significantly. Perhaps down to 175 locales.
Those locales could be broadcasted on VHF on 16 by CG and published in notice to navigators much like exclusion zones generated by the USN. Given those locales are spread over the coastal waters of several states between radar, air and water resources violations of intrusions or even impending intrusions by existing resources is feasible. Even the public could help in a manner such as the Audubon society helps with endangered species such as piping plovers.
Yes this would be a additional demand on USN and CG requiring additional funds. However comparing publics loss of income, decrease safety of humans from loss of AIS transceiver use and resultant poor impact on saving right whale lives the existing rule makes no sense.
I don’t think any rational boater wants to hit a whale. If the boater (or commercial operator) had exact knowledge of their location staying a nm away from them would be a minor inconvenience. Even speed restrictions need not apply as long as a safe distance was maintained.
Please critique.

 

[SteveK]

Has there ben any study of whale hits to determine if whales are over or if whales surface to the underside of a boat.
I can imagine a freighter design to not see a whale on the surface within say 100 yards, but other than that design most bridges can see the water ahead.

 

[tiltrider1]

Stalking? Do you really think anyone cares who you are or where you go?

I wish this was funny.

 

[Hippocampus]

Don’t know if I’ve ever seen a right whale but have seen a lot of whales. Used to spend a lot of time off race point fishing and along the coast of Plymouth and sandwich. Seems typical behavior in a pod with young is it real easy to spot whales. Not only from lying on the surface but from blowing. Unlike toothed whales like sperm whales diving deep to feed with baleen young seem to stay close to the surface due to the limitations of their young. Don’t know if I can answer your generic question but strongly suspect nearly all strikes (both ships and boats) are on surface whales when dealing with females and young.

 

[O C Diver]

Has there ben any study of whale hits to determine if whales are over or if whales surface to the underside of a boat.
I can imagine a freighter design to not see a whale on the surface within say 100 yards, but other than that design most bridges can see the water ahead.

A great many of the charter sport fishing boats leave in the dark and run on autopilot once a few miles off shore. Then after a long day of fishing and smoozing customers, they ride the autopilot home at 20 to 35 knots. My local prop shop made a very nice living reconditioning props from the sportfishing boats.

Ted

 

[Hippocampus]

Ted is right. Friend ran a sportfish. When his first mate was indisposed I’d help out. Whose holding the rod is less important then who is at the helm. But you’re looking back at the fish mostly. Other than those occasions boat was usually on AP even when not running out to the canyons. Needs of the paying people came first and getting it done. Can easily see no one trying spot whales.

 

[SteveK]

A great many of the charter sport fishing boats leave in the dark and run on autopilot once a few miles off shore. Then after a long day of fishing and smoozing customers, they ride the autopilot home at 20 to 35 knots. My local prop shop made a very nice living reconditioning props from the sportfishing boats.

Ted

Only prop damage? At 20 to 35 I would expect some bodily injuries on sudden impact. But autopilot does explain the strikes if there is no attention ahead.

I suppose the 10 knot speed will give the whale time to swim out of the way.

 

[Hippocampus]

Whales sleep on the surface. Don’t know if they would wake up, get oriented and have time to get out of the way.

 

[psneeld]

https://www.federalregister.gov/doc... is particularly true for females with calves.


"The whales' primary distribution includes seasonal coastal habitats characterized by extensive commercial and recreational vessel traffic. North Atlantic right whales are vulnerable to vessel strike due to their coastal distribution and frequent occurrence at near-surface depths, and this is particularly true for females with calves.

The proportion of known vessel strike events involving females, calves, and juveniles is higher than their representation in the population (NMFS 2020). Mother/calf pairs are at high risk of vessel strike because they frequently rest and nurse in nearshore habitats at or near the water surface, particularly in the Southeast calving area (Cusano et al. 2018; Dombroski et al. 2021). Calving females have the longest residence time of any demographic group on the Southeast calving ground, staying on average about three months in the region before traveling with their nursing calves to northern foraging areas (Krzystan et al. 2018). Right whales nurse their calves for up to a year. This promotes rapid calf growth (Fortune et al. 2012) but also places mother/calf pairs at increased risk of vessel interactions, not only within the Southeast calving ground but also along the Mid-Atlantic and New England coasts, which are important migratory and foraging areas for right whales.

Numerous studies have indicated that slowing the speed of vessels reduces the risk of lethal vessel collisions, particularly in areas where right whales are abundant and vessel traffic is common and otherwise traveling at high speeds (Vanderlaan and Taggart 2007; Conn and Silber 2013; Van der Hoop et al. 2014; Martin et al. 2015; Crum et al. 2019). In 2008, NMFS implemented 10-knot (5.1 meters/second (m/s)) vessel speed restrictions for a five-year period for most vessels greater than or equal to 65 ft (19.8 m) in overall length within designated areas commonly referred to as Seasonal Management Areas (SMAs) along the U.S. East Coast to reduce the risk of mortality and serious injury from vessel strike (73 FR 60173, October 10, 2008 (50 CFR 224.105)). NMFS later removed the five-year “sunset” provision from the speed rule (78 FR 73726, December 9, 2013; 79 FR 34245, June 16, 2014), and the rule continues in effect today.

Reducing vessel speed is one of the most effective, feasible options available to reduce the likelihood of lethal outcomes from vessel collisions with right whales......."

 

[Hippocampus]

Thanks PS

‘Nuff said.


Given price of diesel can live with <10kts.

 

[Old Sea Dog]

The whales in question are at the brink of literal extinction. Prolonging the life of

a single individual may, according to 'their own study', improve their chances.

Are you proposing that they ignore that study or just conflating two distinct ideas?

I would rather NOT have wind turbines at all.....
Their useful life is not worth their cost and maintenance, if any is actually performed.
I do support commonsense measures to support and protect wildlife.