Are two (marine) heads better than one?

[oak_box]

Peggie,

I saw the Uniseal - looks good. It looks like it's just a large grommet designed for the pipe fitting to go through - is that correct? For example, if the existing tank turns out to be plastic, and I want to remove the Y between the existing heads, can I use the Uniseal to add another input port to the tank for the 2nd head?

If so, do I need to do anything else to attach the fitting to the tank (for physical strain relief)?

 

[Comodave]

Yes, if it is plastic the Uniseal will work. Just cut a clean hole with a sharp hole saw. No particular strain relief is needed unless there is an unusual amount of pull on the hose, not common. Good luck.

 

[oak_box]

I finally made it back out to the boat.

The waste tank is metal, and is shot. There's at least one hole rusted through the top of the tank between the fittings.

FIRST QUESTION: (for Peggie?): If I replace the waste holding tank, can the Raritan Marine Elegance pump UP 24-30" to get the waste into the tank? The floor of the forward (guest) and aft (master) heads (bathrooms) are at about the same level as the engine room floor. If I install a new waste tank on the engine room floor, the toilet would have to flush the waste out, up at least 24", across about 8', and then down into the tank. Needless to say, I'm concerned about the potential for "**** flowing back downhill" - back into the toilet. But mounting the new tank on the engine room floor would be MUCH easier (and a shorter hose run) than putting a new tank under the engine room floor in the original location.

The other down side of installing a new tank on the engine room floor is that I'm limited in space. I may only be able to fit a 50-60 gallon tank, based on what I saw at the Ronco Plastics site, and unfortunately, that tank would be mounted on the starboard side of the boat, putting up to 500 pounds of waste off-center.

The nice thing is that it would be MUCH more accessible, plastic, new, and easy for me to install a tank monitor.

There are several large fiberglass "stringers"?? running longitudinally through the bilge. The plywood engine room flooring runs across the top of the center two. The engines are mounted outboard on either side of these. The waste tank is mounted between the two center longitudinal "stringers?" (in the lowest part of the bilge). The plywood engine room floor covers the waste tank except for an access section where the fittings for the waste tank are located

Pulling up the plywood flooring in the engine room to get access to the existing waste tank will be a pain in the tail - as a number of hoses, wires, and other items have been secured to the flooring. Not impossible - just a royal pain.

Since I don't have any sewage smell in the boat, and I have a hole rusted in the top of the holding tank - I'm hopeful that means that the holding tank is completely dry - so if I have to cut it up in small pieces to get it out, at least I won't have raw sewage to deal with. But this would be a major project that I won't be able to start until I have the engines running reliably (due to access and getting in the way of engine work).

The fresh water tank is MUCH more difficult to get to, and may not be possible to pull out. Not sure yet if it leaks. I do know I have a leak in the water system somewhere... If the fresh water tank is leaking, I can find somewhere in the engine room to stick a new tank or two, which would be nice, as it would allow me to install a tank monitor or at least a sight glass.

 

[Comodave]

I don’t think that you would have a problem. I looked in the owners manual for the ME and there is a graph as to how far it will pump and what height. You can download the manual and make sure for yourself. Too bad about the access to the old tank. If there is sewage in there I think you would smell it with a hole in the tank. When you install the new tank try to put in 2 1” bents, one going to each side of the boat, it will help keep your tank aerobic and that doesn’t smell. It will take more water to pump the crap over the hump and you will need to make sure you are using enough water to do that. You can adjust the settings on the control board to make the flush longer or shorter.

 

[catalinajack]

We have two Elegance heads. The one in the master bedroom is about a 25-foot run to the holding tank. The forward head is only a five-foot downhill run to the tank. No pooping into the master head for us except in a dire emergency.

Although the typical macerating toilet can only move bowl contents about 6' without a lot of help from gravity, a 15-16' run to the tank is not too long for the ME toilet. But as someone suggested earlier, I'd eliminate the y-valve by putting TWO inlet ports in the tank. And no...no vented loop is needed if the toilet only flushes into the tank.


I've also toyed with the idea of a Marine Elegance in the forward (guest) head, and a porta-potty in the master head for times that it would be easier to walk over a porta potty than it would be to take the boat over to pump out. Dunno. Emptying a porta potty is nasty business.

Not if it's a "MSD" portapotty. [FONT=&quot]The "MSD" designation in the model name/number means it has fittings for a pumpout line and vent line, and is designed to be permanently installed (actually just sturdier brackets than portables, so you could still take it off the boat if you absolutely have to), which means that although it's still called a PORTApotty, you don't have to carry anything including urine jugs off the boat to empty it. A 5-6 gallon model is household height and because it uses so little flush water--only enough to rinse the bowl-- holds 50-60 flushes. You'd need at least a 30 gallon tank to hold that many from any manual or electric marine toilet. The downside would be, you'd still need the same second pumpout fitting that you'd need if you added a second tank. But if you'd seriously consider a self-contained system and IF that head is large enough to accommodate the tank footprint (about 20" x 20"), the Dometic 711-M28 [/FONT][FONT=&quot] is an "upgraded" MSD portapotty that's worth considering. It has the same all china bowl as a VacuFlush, uses onboard pressurized fresh water--and actually does need only about a pint of it--that sits atop a 9 gal tank. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]SeaLand Traveler at Defender[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]--Peggie
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[markpierce]

I have THREE heads. Odds are ONE will be working. Two would be my minimum.

Yes, multiple anythings bring more troubles/expense. Would recommend more than one toilet only if more than two people are expected to spend more than an afternoon on the boat.

 

[HeadMistress]

Peggie,

I saw the Uniseal - looks good. It looks like it's just a large grommet designed for the pipe fitting to go through - is that correct?


That's correct.

For example, if the existing tank turns out to be plastic, and I want to remove the Y between the existing heads, can I use the Uniseal to add another input port to the tank for the 2nd head?

Yes...and I think that's a good idea.


If so, do I need to do anything else to attach the fitting to the tank (for physical strain relief)?

You'll need to lubricate the fitting...I recommend K-Y jelly. It's a water soluble surgical jelly that's much slicker than dishwashing liquid. And I suggest that if you have enough clearance above the tank (about 5") you put it on the TOP of the tank...use a 90 degree fitting. Just make sure that's aimed to prevent any side-to-side or upward/downward strain on the hose.

--Peggie

 

[HeadMistress]

FIRST QUESTION: (for Peggie?): If I replace the waste holding tank, can the Raritan Marine Elegance pump UP 24-30" to get the waste into the tank?

The ME can do it, but I don't recommend it.

You and I prob'ly should talk about where you can put the tank, 'cuz just based on your post, I can think of several possible locations that I don't think you're considering. If you'll send me a PM we can work out a mutually agreeable time to spend at least 30 minutes on the phone together.

--Peggie

 

[Sofa King Fishy]

Yes, yes, yes!

Two heads are absolutely an essential IMHO. Think of it as a redundant system. If you have the space and it’s ready to plumb, it’s a no brainer. I second the Raritan Marine Elegance- installed myself, but the wiring is tricky. Mine has a switch to select between Salt/Fresh flush .

 

[AlanT]

Bottom line:

Is ONE toilet enough?


Thoughts?

Short answer is No one head is not enough if you have the capability for two. Same reason to have two fresh water pumps and two bilge pumps. Everything fails eventually and nothing ever fails when its use is not needed. So think of the second head as the back up that enables you to do your head rebuild at a time and place of your convenience.

The Marine Elegance is a great choice. I installed 2 of them on my last boat. If you stick with that single brand for both heads you will reduce your spares purchase. Plumb both for fresh water. If you ever run out of fresh water or (both) your fresh water pumps fail you can always fill it with a bucket of seawater in emergencies. Good luck ~Alan

 

[bill.kimbell]

Two heads. Very nice for even day guests to Not use your head. And backup for the inevitable failure...always at the worst possible time.

 

[wpc691]

Gotta be two heads. And I would also vote for one salt and one fresh, particularly if you happen to already have a seacock available. If you’re trying to stay out someplace a couple of extra days, it’s nice to not have to worry about how many times you can flush the head; also, you can still flush should your freshwater pump “crap out”. We’ve never had any more or different problems with our saltwater head vs fresh.

 

[HeadMistress]

Two heads are absolutely an essential IMHO. Think of it as a redundant system. If you have the space and it’s ready to plumb, it’s a no brainer. I second the Raritan Marine Elegance- installed myself, but the wiring is tricky. Mine has a switch to select between Salt/Fresh flush .

You DO know that you have to add the optional SeaFresh package that includes a remote intake pump to be able to switch between fresh and salt???? Raritan seafresh.pdf


--Peggie

 

[timb7734]

Had a Chris 41. Replace the metal holding tank now as it likely leaks. Also I vote for two heads. My tank leaked after 20 years. Also add a “sweet tank” air pump with a non metal tank hose.

 

[Art]

For contemplating a subject and for on board marine stay overs... "Two heads are better than one"!

 

[markpierce]

It wasn't until the 1950s that the middle classes in my area of the world began wanting multiple bathrooms/toilets in their houses. In my early childhood, the house had three bedrooms and only one bathroom.

 

[Comodave]

It wasn't until the 1950s that the middle classes in my area of the world began wanting multiple bathrooms/toilets in their houses. In my early childhood, the house had three bedrooms and only one bathroom.

I grew up in that situation. Don’t want to go back, especially as we get older. Timely access to a head is more critical now.

 

[Hippocampus]

Interested in Peggy’s comments as think she’s most knowledgeable.
Last boat was semi custom. Owners group is very friendly and shares experience. Boats where any combination you could think of . One or two, electric or manual. Fresh or salt or both. From those discussions believe: (we had two, both with fresh or salt supply. Both macerated. One elegance,one manual)

Two heads makes sense for long term cruisers. Company, failure etc. but also as liveaboards it meant two sinks and showers. So although we used the elegance in the back for bodily functions it meant she had hers and I had mine. That cuts down “getting ready” time in half.
Two holding tanks makes sense. Most common failure point for many is the hose or through hull for discharge clogs.
Electric heads are more reliable than mechanical heads. Even when both have macerators. Maceration with electric usually occurs at bowl discharge. Maceration usually occurs near holding tank with it running only when discharge pump switch is hit with manual.
It’s good to have both fresh and salt supply to any head. This allows no inconvenience when fresh supply is limited. When fresh again becomes available you can flush out salt and avoid the complications of salt.
PVC is the best piping but often due to geometry not possible to run without the no no of right angle bends or unsupported runs.
If two heads one should be electric and one manual. Don’t want house bank failure or low SOC to be limiting.
Finally, real interested in your opinion of composting. Personally think it maybe a viable option if your program is purely coastal but not if offshore or voyaging is part of your life.

 

[ranger58sb]

Peggie (et al):

Is it possible to have two holding tanks, connected somehow, with only one pump-out deck fitting and only one overboard discharge pump/through-hull?

Perhaps a hose or PVC run from primary tank (the one plumbed to the deck fitting) to the secondary tank, perhaps a dip-tube on the secondary tank...

??

-Chris

 

[Ruffryder]

Of course 2 heads & 2 tanks.
I use PEX piping instead of sanitation hose, they're harder to work with & stiff, but much better IMO. Otherwise I like Trident 101.

 

[Bryant]

2 heads

I'm restoring a 1980 Chris Craft Commander 410.
The boat had two full heads with separate showers.

I've pulled out both toilets, and will soon pull the marine sanitation hoses as well. The hoses are at least 20 years old - so I'm not even going to question them - they're gonna go. The two AWESOME things are that:

1) The boat hadn't been used in YEARS - so the heads and hoses (and hopefully tank) are all DRY!!! SOOOO much better than if we had used the heads for a while, and then got around to replacing...
2) The boat is laid out in a way that I can get to everything!!! For both heads, the hose starts at the toilet, goes through a bulkhead or two immediately into the engine room, makes a vertical loop (smell containment?) and then runs to a Y (one branch from each toilet) before dumping into the holding tank.

I'm planning to first replace the forward toilet, which serves the forward V-berth, and acts as the "day head". My plan is to replace the old raw water toilet with a fresh water toilet. Possibly the Raritan Marine Elegance, as it's the only one I've found so far that is designed for a fresh water supply without requiring additional solenoids, etc. (If there are other options that are already configured for a fresh water supply - please let me know!)

But I'm not so sure about immediately replacing the toilet in the master head. I will likely hold off at least for a little while to stem the wallet hemorrhaging... I've had thoughts of trying a composting head in the master, with a conventional forward, but that's a different thread.

Bottom line:

Is ONE toilet enough?
I would expect that I'll entertain during the day, but RARELY have more than one couple spending the night. My current/previous boat(s) only had one head - and that was fine.

Having the head and noise (bodily and from pumps, etc.) on the other side of the boat from the person still in bed might be nice.

Similar to the "one engine or two" argument - One head instead of two means less maintenance, parts, expense, and more room in the tiny aft head. It also implies that there is "no backup" if the one toilet fails (though a bucket or porta-potty could be used in the spot where a toilet would normally go in the master bath).

If I don't immediately put in the 2nd toilet, the next question is how much prep of marine sanitation lines should I do for it?

Should I JUST run the line for the first toilet?
In an effort to avoid a messy addition in the future, I could go ahead and put in a new Y in the line from the first toilet to the holding tank. If I do that, do I run the hose all the way to the aft cabin (good hose is DANG expensive!), or just stub it off? If I stub it off, it would be nice to do so in a way that adding the rest of the hose later wouldn't be a nasty job (hence going ahead with the Y and stub).

I thought about running the line from the forward head to the Y, and on to the tank. The other branch of the Y could go to a ball valve, so I'd have a clean, sealed end to work with for adding the second toilet later. The question here would be: Will the ball valve stick shut if it's not operated for a year or so?

Thoughts?

Two heads are twice the maintenance. That’s a given. But if you are in the process of totally replacing your sanitation system anyway, the quality of life afforded by two heads is immeasurable. Two separate heads is one of the major reasons we bought a GB 36. Very good decision on our part. Rebuild both. You won’t regret it.