Assistance Liability

[Benthic2]

Had more than one tow when assistance towing that I think was because the member was leaving a bar and felt like it might be a bad idea to drive home themselves.

Is that covered under a normal BoatUS policy ???

 

[psneeld]

Is that covered under a normal BoatUS policy ???

No, but if they call and say something is wrong with their boat, my bosses never told me to make them to prove it was broken.

Not sure how any other franchise would handle it. Usually if a customer called for a tow more than a couple times a year, they were now scrutinized a bit more than others and if it were more than 2X from the same bar in the same summer...I am betting my boss would have had me try and start their boat or locate the problem before just towing it home.

 

[CarlF]

Don’t you people have liability insurance? Nothing in my liability policy says I can’t try to help someone. I’ve probably towed over 100 boats out of one scrape or another in 50 years of boating. I always try to help. Life’s too short to worry about a one in a million lawsuit.

If I was sued over a bungled rescue , my insurance company is on the hook - not me. Their lawyers would tell the others guy’s insurance company that I was clearly acting as a Good Samaritan since I wasn’t in the business of rescues. It would never go to court.

Oh, and to be safe I carry $5million of umbrella liability insurance that covers house, cars, boats, skiing, and everything else. Doesn’t cost much.

 

[Mark Laurnen]

CarlF. Thanks for that good reminder! I agree with you, one should always attempt to assist. I hadn’t thought about my umbrella policy in this context, but your post gives me reassurance. I do think that dealings with like minded boaters, compared to the general public, would be the least likely situation to evoke use of the umbrella.

 

[Shrew]

No, there aren't more decent people because they will tow. Being willing to help others is just one consequence of having more (a higher percentage of) decent people.

People in more populated areas get sort of hardened to the negatives of dealing with crowds. You have to treat everyone with suspicion. In more rural areas it's easier to see you fellow human beings as individuals.

Just so I understand this... If I come to your aid, then sit around with you while we wait for a tow or salvage to come to save your property, I'm not a decent person??

I have to take on the act of towing or salvaging to be considered a decent person? Be damned whether my equipment is designed and sized to handle the task. Regardless of sea state and the forces said sea state puts on equipment? Regardless of the unknown condition of your equipment?

All because you're either too impatient to wait for a tow company to respond, or too cheap to spend the $150 a year on towing insurance? LOL!!!

 

[Hippocampus]

Good Sam does offer some protection.
I’m a neurologist not a neurosurgeon. At night 17 y.o. f. was brought to ER with apparent epidural hematoma. She was actively herniating from a middle meningeal artery bleed. So would be dead in minutes. Neurosurgeon would take 1/2 h to come in and it would take that long to prep OR, get a CT and even 10-15m to just do plain films. So I asked a nurse to grab the burr hole tray. In the absence of confirming imaging intervened. ER doc helped but also had no formal NS residency. It saved her life and allowed enough time to turn the case over to the NS team. I had violated every hospital policy. Had not done a NS residency. Had no surgical hospital credentials beyond those typical for neurology. Called my carrier. Told even if she died due to good Sam I had no vulnerability.
Was transitioning Gulf of Maine poor conditions. Large fishing trawler with fish hold in its middle had broke its back. Distress call came over VHF. Apparently only we heard it. Relayed call to CG. Our antennas were 68’ high and had Satphone as well. Told to be standby. They were steel. We were glass. Concerned about coming aside. Also concerned about liability for their and our damages if they occurred. Told by CG they would deploy a boat and a helicopter. Told to be stand by vessel and serve as relay. Told to keep them appraised of situation until they arrived. Told as long as I did what they said to the best of my capabilities without endangering my vessel not to worry but stay close as trawler was sinking. A pump was dropped but trawler sank any way. Crew picked up by CG boat.
Also had occasion to be standby when a motor cruiser caught fire in coastal setting (Naragansett bay). People in the water with copious toxic smelling smoke. Told to get as close as safe but not intervene. Told they would be there in minutes but to effect rescue it anybody seemed to be in trouble. They were there before we could get real close. Have trained in MOB and how to deal with individual after rescue. Have the hoist, life sling etc. but have nowhere near the training or experience as CG. Told after the event a non issue as good Sam applies.
On several occasions have diverted to help another sailboat with issues while doing passage. My understanding is it’s your obligation as part of international law. It’s also your moral obligation. I couldn’t live with myself if I didn’t help.

 

[psneeld]

Many different levels of help...all require risk management. Whether recreational boater, commercial seafarer or professional SAR, there are times you aren't called or needed but are aware of trouble, other times you respond and stand by and sometimes you get to play hero if you want.

Not the hero newscasters seem to call everyone nowadays...but jump all into a bad situation. No one can force you to do that or tell you not to.

I will just say after 35 years of responding to distress and seeing the aftermath of people getting in over their heads from new boaters to USCG crews.... I will give the same advice I have given before.... make darn sure you know your, your boat's, your crew's if you have one, the other boat's, the other's crew limitations (and about a hundred other things) before you jump in beyond standing by for the pros to come.

I am sure there are many here that can handle themselves and evaluate correctly..... till the time you don't. Even the pro SAR guys die trying, wreck their asset, hurt others or damage their equipment.... so be careful out there. The real kicker....is when the crap is hitting the fan hard.... the USCG has lost many a crew and the people they were trying to save made it to safety often on their own. That is the real lesson to be learned.... morality, living with one's self, etc...etc.... all nice to ponder, but scare yourself enough helping others with significant risk to yourself and........

 

[Hippocampus]

Good post ps. After treating anoxic encephalopathy from near drownings in people who tried to rescue others more than once yes as captain you are also obligated to not seriously endanger yourself, crew or your vessel.

 

[kthoennes]

This is probably way beyond the scope of this thread, but I keep thinking of John 15:13 (Greater love, etc.). But okay, I'll go back to high school or college ethics, if you're a guy with a lifeboat seat on the Titanic and there's a kid or woman on deck, you step back on and yield the seat (I'm talking to you Bruce Ismay). You just never know if you'll have the courage when the time comes, although that's a test that will hopefully never come. Of course I'm not arguing for foolhardy risk just for the sake of bravado, including risk to your own passengers. Of course you have to use good judgment and prudence, but I'm with Hippo. (Boy, this thread sure escalated.)

 

[psneeld]

That's the ultimate insult....

When your brave enough but not good enough and everyone dies.

Learn from others who have been there and done that till they want to puke over the wringing of knuckles over what is right and what is not..... know thy self and the rest will fall into line.

The problem in America is hero worship and big talk until reality smacks you in the face. Emotion is great but doesn't make up for experience and clear thinking.

I know enough to know I am not the same person I was 30 years ago on so many levels.

DON'T BE THAT GUY...........

 

[CaptTom]

I'll only speak for myself. I wasn't talking about heroics. I wasn't talking about taking on more than you can handle. I wasn't talking about putting yourself or others in danger.

Just ordinary (I though) decency to help out a fellow boater if you can.

That's always been the way of seafarers. Sad to see that eroding.

 

[mvweebles]

Just ordinary (I though) decency to help out a fellow boater if you can.

That's always been the way of seafarers. Sad to see that eroding.

It's not eroding. There have always been people who don't want to get involved and will use any excuse to keep their hands in their pockets. Majority of people are willing to help where they can.

Peter

 

[psneeld]

I'll only speak for myself. I wasn't talking about heroics. I wasn't talking about taking on more than you can handle. I wasn't talking about putting yourself or others in danger.

Just ordinary (I though) decency to help out a fellow boater if you can.

That's always been the way of seafarers. Sad to see that eroding.

In my former 2 careers, it was sad to see seafarers' abilities eroding to the point where a profitable (boater assistance) business has grown because of the number of simple errors made daily (in season) and the "cry wolf" mentality infecting too many of them.

In the less populated areas of the world, the problem isn't nearly as obvious as in jam packed waterways...much like many aspects of modern life.

As I posted before...it's NOT about decency.... I am usually the first to claim life is black and white more often than given credit for. However, the older I get...the more gray it has become as Shrew pointed out in his last post.

I am just pointing out from the same viewpoint as doctors who don't recommend treating oneself, or lawyers saying it's not wise to represent yourself, or electricians who caution about messing with high voltage... I am saying that helping other's IS a noble cause (heck I did it for 35 years though I only got a meager paycheck doing it so there was more to it).

That is right up till something goes wrong and possible a suit to follow, which it can very easily...just make dang sure you body, boat and all else can write checks your DECENCY thinks it can.

 

[CaptTom]

I find it odd that we disagree on this issue. We agree on most others.

I guess my problem is giving in to the forces of apathy and turning away from our basic humanity.

I don't want to live in a world where I sacrifice my self-respect and personal integrity for fear of lawyers. If I see a fellow human in trouble, I'll do whatever I can safely do to help. That may be nothing more than standing by and waiting for professional assistance. Or it may be there's more I feel capable of doing. Maybe I'll be judged for that. But more important, to me, is how I judge myself.

 

[Northern Spy]

Hmmm. I would always save a life. I've been tested in the fight or flight scenario several times when strangers need help. I'm fight; and even a bit stupid about it. Ask my wife.

But being a helpful person with towing a boat, without the threat to life?

I'd have to discern that one.

I would surmise I am more likely to help someone in the Strait of Georgia as it requires a modicum of seamanship just to be there, the consequences of failure are high, and probably less likely of a civil suit, being in Canada.

Off the coast of Miami, FL? Yeah. I'd probably have to think about that a bit more.

Horses for courses...

 

[Duke 239]

Good Sam does offer some protection.
I’m a neurologist not a neurosurgeon. At night 17 y.o. f. was brought to ER with apparent epidural hematoma. She was actively herniating from a middle meningeal artery bleed. So would be dead in minutes. Neurosurgeon would take 1/2 h to come in and it would take that long to prep OR, get a CT and even 10-15m to just do plain films. So I asked a nurse to grab the burr hole tray. In the absence of confirming imaging intervened. ER doc helped but also had no formal NS residency. It saved her life and allowed enough time to turn the case over to the NS team. I had violated every hospital policy. Had not done a NS residency. Had no surgical hospital credentials beyond those typical for neurology. Called my carrier. Told even if she died due to good Sam I had no vulnerability.
Was transitioning Gulf of Maine poor conditions. Large fishing trawler with fish hold in its middle had broke its back. Distress call came over VHF. Apparently only we heard it. Relayed call to CG. Our antennas were 68’ high and had Satphone as well. Told to be standby. They were steel. We were glass. Concerned about coming aside. Also concerned about liability for their and our damages if they occurred. Told by CG they would deploy a boat and a helicopter. Told to be stand by vessel and serve as relay. Told to keep them appraised of situation until they arrived. Told as long as I did what they said to the best of my capabilities without endangering my vessel not to worry but stay close as trawler was sinking. A pump was dropped but trawler sank any way. Crew picked up by CG boat.
Also had occasion to be standby when a motor cruiser caught fire in coastal setting (Naragansett bay). People in the water with copious toxic smelling smoke. Told to get as close as safe but not intervene. Told they would be there in minutes but to effect rescue it anybody seemed to be in trouble. They were there before we could get real close. Have trained in MOB and how to deal with individual after rescue. Have the hoist, life sling etc. but have nowhere near the training or experience as CG. Told after the event a non issue as good Sam applies.
On several occasions have diverted to help another sailboat with issues while doing passage. My understanding is it’s your obligation as part of international law. It’s also your moral obligation. I couldn’t live with myself if I didn’t help.

You sound a real stand up guy. I may not want to hang out with you though, you seem to attract trouble

 

[psneeld]

Hmmm. I would always save a life. I've been tested in the fight or flight scenario several times when strangers need help. I'm fight; and even a bit stupid about it. Ask my wife.

But being a helpful person with towing a boat, without the threat to life?

I'd have to discern that one.

I would surmise I am more likely to help someone in the Strait of Georgia as it requires a modicum of seamanship just to be there, the consequences of failure are high, and probably less likely of a civil suit, being in Canada.

Off the coast of Miami, FL? Yeah. I'd probably have to think about that a bit more.

Horses for courses...

and to use my favorite line..... as usual it depends.

 

[CaptTom]

...Off the coast of Miami, FL? Yeah. I'd probably have to think about that a bit more...

Excellent point! I think that's what I was trying to get at in an earlier post. You said it far more succinctly. Where I'm at would most certainly factor into any decision to help.

Come to think of it, I've towed people a pretty long way in Canada, but passed by people who might need help in Florida. Pretty much anywhere that's densely populated I'm much more wary. More people means more options to get assistance, as well as more a-holes who would jump at the chance to sue. This seems to create a callous attitude toward others which I personally would rather avoid.

 

[psneeld]

It's NOT always a callous attitude....for some of us it's RISK MANAGEMENT.... drummed into me my whole life as a pretty smart way to go through life..

Probably what keeps me posting is not whether people assist or not, it's the negativity towards those that WOULD risk their lives to help when necessary but realize that taking any risk in a non-emergency or non-serious situation may not be the best risk management decision.

 

[Shrew]

That's always been the way of seafarers. Sad to see that eroding.

While I see no evidence of that in this thread, I am thankful we have you as a shining beacon of decency and morality for us all to strive toward.

 

[Gdavid]

Probably what keeps me posting is not whether people assist or not, it's the negativity towards those that WOULD risk their lives to help when necessary but realize that taking any risk in a non-emergency or non-serious situation may not be the best risk management decision.

I look at it from a little different perspective. All the cases that I have provided assistance were non-emergency. No one would have died from having to wait longer or incur expense but by providing aid in these benign conditions, I gained experience am more capable to provide assistance in more challenging conditions where life may be dependent getting things right.

 

[psneeld]

I look at it from a little different perspective. All the cases that I have provided assistance were non-emergency. No one would have died from having to wait longer or incur expense but by providing aid in these benign conditions, I gained experience am more capable to provide assistance in more challenging conditions where life may be dependent getting things right.

And a good perspective at that..... most of my posts don't say "don't provide help"...they just mainly meant to say don't get in over your head and when in doubt, only help if it is an emergency.

Gaining experience in very benign conditions is what everyone should do... unfortunately some don't and they or others pay the price...whether just a little or a lot.

 

[727Gold]

Clarification: It is contrary to US law to ignore a MAYDAY call or not respond to an observed life threatening situation at sea. See below. Rendering "assistance" in other situations is a more complex decision and, as the previous comments indicate, involve indivdiual moral and ethical standards - so, use your best judgement and have at least one friend, preferably a boater, who is an attorney.

46 U.S. Code § 2304 - Duty to provide assistance at sea
U.S. Code
Notes
prev | next
(a)
(1)A master or individual in charge of a vessel shall render assistance to any individual found at sea in danger of being lost, so far as the master or individual in charge can do so without serious danger to the master’s or individual’s vessel or individuals on board.
(2)Paragraph (1) does not apply to a vessel of war or a vessel owned by the United States Government appropriated only to a public service.
(b)A master or individual violating this section shall be fined not more than $1,000, imprisoned for not more than 2 years, or both.

 

[SeaDogAK]

”so, use your best judgement and have at least one friend, preferably a boater, who is an attorney.”.

Here I thought my friends liked me for my sunny personality.

 

[GoldenDawn]

One thing I did not catch in the thread so far is communicating with the Coast Guard and the casualty on 16, or if requested by CG, on another CG-monitored channel. These channels are typically recorded and provide an external documentation of the rescue. It also keeps CG apprised of the situation. In Canada, CG (BC) will track the casualty until it is delivered to a dock or safe anchorage.

 

[Northern Spy]

Clarification: It is contrary to US law to ignore a MAYDAY call or not respond to an observed life threatening situation at sea. See below. Rendering "assistance" in other situations is a more complex decision and, as the previous comments indicate, involve indivdiual moral and ethical standards - so, use your best judgement and have at least one friend, preferably a boater, who is an attorney.

46 U.S. Code § 2304 - Duty to provide assistance at sea
U.S. Code
Notes
prev | next
(a)
(1)A master or individual in charge of a vessel shall render assistance to any individual found at sea in danger of being lost, so far as the master or individual in charge can do so without serious danger to the master’s or individual’s vessel or individuals on board.
(2)Paragraph (1) does not apply to a vessel of war or a vessel owned by the United States Government appropriated only to a public service.
(b)A master or individual violating this section shall be fined not more than $1,000, imprisoned for not more than 2 years, or both.

The original question is about towing assistance, not assisting in a MAYDAY.

 

[727Gold]

Yes, I understand that. However, the discussion thread included references to life saving and associated responsibilities/liabilities/decisions as opposed to simply providing assistance.

 

[psneeld]

It's a circus out there.

Hard to guess what real assistance someone needs.

As many have said, the farther you get from high density boating (like where people live on land too, rural or city).... the more real things get on both sides of "assistance"....and a lot has to go into deciding what is the best course of action.

Where I was an assistance tower, there were so many boats between me and the average assistance call and even Maydays.... if I gave every boat a polite pass headed for the caller..... it would take an hour just to go a few miles.*Often the USCG and State police would tell me to ignore no wake rules so that my boat, equipment and local knowledge/skills would get to the distress in a timely manner. Luckily those were few and far between as I usually caught as much hell as the USCG and Staties did for waking everyone/everything.

Many times, both as an assistance tower or recreational boater... hearing a Mayday or general assistance call at some distances made me wring my hands a moment or two deciding just how far away is one obligated to go and help? Easy if in the Bearing Sea or South Pacific and similar places if you don't think anyone else might respond or be capable of making it. Not so easy if there is 1000+ boaters and professionals between you and the caller. Average holiday weekend days during the summer in South Jersey there may be 5 Maydays and 50 calls for assistance. That's quite a few to pick through and know your help will actually be needed.