At what point do I need a captain?

[DDW]

Thanks for trying, but it didn't take me long to see that this applies if the boat is of foreign registry. While far away, Washington state is one of the 50 United States, just like Alaska, so this rule won't apply to me.

Better read the regs again. Maybe you do need a captain.

On the other hand, I am impressed that you want to buy something potentially big enough to need a captain, keep it in Washington state, and never go even as far as Alaska. Maybe you don't need a captain.

 

[DNT99611]

Have the Alaska laws changed? I ask because my fishing partner bought a boat over 65 feet in New Orleans and ran it up to Alaska. He fished the boat over ten years and has never held any form of license. At the time of buying the boat he was 19 years old.

 

[Alaskaflyer]

Better read the regs again. Maybe you do need a captain.



On the other hand, I am impressed that you want to buy something potentially big enough to need a captain, keep it in Washington state, and never go even as far as Alaska. Maybe you don't need a captain.

Have the Alaska laws changed? I ask because my fishing partner bought a boat over 65 feet in New Orleans and ran it up to Alaska. He fished the boat over ten years and has never held any form of license. At the time of buying the boat he was 19 years old.

https://law.justia.com/codes/alaska/2010/title08/chapter08-62/sec-08-62-180/

All US pleasure craft are exempt as are all fishing vessels from the US and British Columbia. It also appears that most Canadian pleasure craft under 175 feet are exempt though paperwork for an annual exemption if you're more than 65', may be involved.

 

[psneeld]

https://law.justia.com/codes/alaska/2010/title08/chapter08-62/sec-08-62-180/

All US pleasure craft are exempt as are all fishing vessels from the US and British Columbia. It also appears that most Canadian pleasure craft under 175 feet are exempt though paperwork for an annual exemption if you're more than 65', may be involved.

When I read it that's what I got out of a 2017 publication. Didn't see more recent laws.

 

[tiltrider1]

I am going to pipe up - insurance may or may not require a captain if you jump more than 10 feet. On my most recent last boat purchase in 2018, I jumped from a 31 foot Ranger Tug to a 42 foot Nordic Tug (that measures out LOA at 50.5 feet). No issues or questions from the insurance broker that I use for my yacht policy. Was I just lucky??

By the way, I got my 6-pack (OUPV) license in 2020. It was worth about $2.00 on my insurance :-D

You were moving to a similar style boat, you have coastal, international and Alaska experience. Wouldn’t call it lucky. Would say your insurance company was confident in your choices.

 

[alormaria]

When the thought first occurs to you.

 

[Shrew]

I'm dreaming of big boats, and wondering: who dictates and at what point do I need to have a captain on my boat?

So if your insurance co. says your good to go , I guess nothing else matters.

These are mutually exclusive questions. The Insurance Company is the only entity that is going to dictate that you need a captain. However, that has no bearing on whether you are 'good to go' or not.

I've seen plenty of folks who have insurance bouncing off of pilings and being a general danger to their vessels and others.

 

[Steel N Time]

Several folks have made this same case. I'm not going to say that you're wrong in any way, but it doesn't answer the question. Take a step back and relax. There was a point behind my question, not relevant to asking the question but here it is: if I'm going to work my butt off to buy a nice boat so I can go enjoy boating in various waters, that enjoyment changes significantly if I'm doing so at the behest of a captain. In some ways, it's better (less stress!), but in some ways it's not (loss of decision-making, and frankly the pilothouse is no longer "my lair"). So while many of you have good points, you've missed the point, but thanks for your insights.

Kinda blaming everyone else because you asked a question in a way to garner the answers you got.....

Hiring a captain so you can relax and not work is different than “at what point” and referencing size limits...

If you have the skills... do it if you you don’t mind the extra work... If you want more sleepy time hire a captain.. ?

 

[garychurch]

As stated your insurance company will determine if you need a captain and for how long. Once this period ends and if the captain (which needs to be approved by the insurance company) certifies you are competent to handle the boat the insurance company will release the requirement for an approved captain.

Also, don’t confuse Coast Guard documentation of Gross and Net tonnage with the weight of a vessel of similarly the water it displaces. The USCG gross and net tonnage are based upon calculated boat interior volume not how much a boat weighs. For example my 120,000 lb boat has a USCG gross tonnage of 99 tons and and a net tonnage of 79.

Lastly, USCG captain licensing is not required for recreational vessels. It is required for commercial vessels that have paying passengers or carry paid cargo. However, this does not prohibit insurance companies from requiring USCG licensing for some recreational vessels.

 

[Bigsfish]

One thing to keep in mind is when I thought I’d get a captains license many years ago my attorney told me not to. He said if I was ever involved in an accident I would be held to a higher level than if I didn’t have one. Forty years later I don’t have a captains license. :lol:

 

[Sea Q]

Some of the locals may remember when Princess Di visited with prince Charles for Expo 1986. They were invited for a harbor cruise by Jack Charles owner of the 115 yacht he built and which he captained.

Well someone said you are not a certified captain and must have a captain drive the boat while they are on board. A compromise was made and "the captain" stood behind Jack while he steered his yacht.

Trivia
Crescent Beach Boat Builders started in Crescent Beach Marina. They launched up to 135 foot boats on an ordinary boat launch ramp.

Jack was a great guy.
Size does matter
One person can steer a boat no problem
Size and design lay out is also important.
On any boat if things go wrong you need someone that knows what they are doing and give you a hand .
from experience
Over 90 feet you need a extra pair of hands just to go from point a to b .
at 70 and under maybe you are okay as long as the day is sunny and calm.
and nothing like bad weather, wind, tides.fog,heavy snow or rain, mechanical failure ,
personally i'm down sizing
50 feet is probably the best for a family or friends cruise .
or about 25 feet that can be stored in garage in winter .
better yet if you want out or to go fishing book a trip .Let others do the work.
Just remember the bigger the boat the farther out the dock you have to tie up. Also having big and fancy draws a lot of resentment from others ,
Get a Captain --- let him handle the boat and stress.

 

[DaveGibson]

Forget about tonnage. What size boat are you looking for? I had spent decades sailing small boats on an inland lake. When I was living in Stamford, CT, I bought a 46' trawler with twin diesels. It's beam was 15'. With no ocean experience, or reading charts and tide tables, I cruised that boat from Stamford to Albany to Jacksonville with no issues. You only have to have common sense, learn to read charts quickly. and make absolutely sure that you have charts for where you're going.

 

[CarlF]

The insurance company captain requirement comes in different forms and is different by insurance company. If you've owned boats with no claims for 10 years and are going to a bigger boat but the same waters you'll likely not need one.

If you've never owned a boat over 30ft or only done some week long charters - and want to buy a 50ft boat they are likely to require a captain.

To the OP, don't wait until you are ready to buy your huge boat. Get a 35ft one now and build 5 years of experience with a history of no claims.

And the Captain requirement is rarely permanent under maybe 80'. Typically you need a captain aboard for a few weeks or a few months for a "check out". Once he signs off to the insurance company, you're good to go on without him.

 

[ProMaritime]

It seems most insurers don't understand GRT and how could they, in my town there is a dinner cruise boat (ship actually) that is USCG authorized to carry about 300 people. It's US flag documentation certificate says 97GRT. How? By not measuring any compartments that are sealed or not available for use by cargo or people. Why? So they can operate her with a 100 ton skipper which saves a lot of money. Of course there are a whole lot of restrictions on this vessel like, no more that 2.5 miles offshore, no winds greater than 15K and a whole bunch of other restrictions.

We own a 47' power cat that measured and documented at 68GRT but at full load only weights 45,000lbs.

Typically insurance companies like to see licensed personnel on vessels of 60' or more overall length. They don't want to wrestle with the math and engineering to understand what produces a GRT.

 

[rgano]

One thing to keep in mind is when I thought I’d get a captains license many years ago my attorney told me not to. He said if I was ever involved in an accident I would be held to a higher level than if I didn’t have one. Forty years later I don’t have a captains license. :lol:

With a history of having command at sea in the US Navy followed by having earned a USCG Unlimited Tonnage Master's license, you can imagine what my prospects would be in front of a maritime court! However, I have enjoyed lowered boat insurance premiums since 1986, and nobody ever questioned my need for a captain.

 

[Circumnavigator]

I think that the regulatory requirement for a licensed captain on a recreational boat begins at 200 gross registry tons in the USA. That's a pretty good sized boat.


However, the comments that your insurance company will control are correct as a practical matter. We had no trouble getting insurance without any licenses when stepping up from a 30' sailboat to a 40' sailboat to the Swan 57 on which we circumnavigated to Fintry (see left), which is 79' overall, 150 tons light displacement. We did, however, get a substantial reduction in the premium when I got a 100 ton Master's license and Dee an OUPV.


Jim

 

[Pdxlou]

Couple in early sixties

We're a couple in our early sixties and live aboard our 61' coastal cruiser having moved up from a 44' Navigator last year to better isolate due to the virus. We are very comfortable operating our boat and while we occasionally dream of moving up in size again, it's unlikely that we will.

Aside from the training/experience your insurance carrier will mandate for a large vessel, consider whether you will want to be in a marina or at anchor most of the time. If the former, boats bigger than 62' LOA will be much harder to find slips for. If you plan to be at anchor most of the time, size probably wont matter much but your tender will be more important for groceries and package pickup. We've found our 61 footer to be right in the 'goldilocks' range; Not too big, not too little.

 

[Hippocampus]

There’s another consideration beyond insurance depending upon usage and destinations. There’s traffic control at the ends of many canals (such as the Cape Cod) and traffic control in many harbors. Especially mixed use ones such as New York or entrances to Bays such as the Chesapeake. Any where there’s mixed use (military,commercial, ferries, water taxis and recreational) there’s someone watching who’s on the water, what size it is (can it damage a bridge or other structure) what’s carrying (hazmat etc.). They will raise you and ask about those issues and well may ask who is the operator and his/hers credentials. In several places beyond captaincy they may want a certificate of competency (Europe) or other credential. Depending upon your response they may bar you

 

[Simi 60]

One thing to keep in mind is when I thought I’d get a captains license many years ago my attorney told me not to. He said if I was ever involved in an accident I would be held to a higher level than if I didn’t have one. Forty years later I don’t have a captains license. :lol:

One of the main reasons I didn't complete my "Master 5" was the increased penalties for minor infringements.
Not worth the hassle.

No insurance company has ever said anything about having a captain onboard.

 

[Sailor of Fortune]

There’s another consideration beyond insurance depending upon usage and destinations. There’s traffic control at the ends of many canals (such as the Cape Cod) and traffic control in many harbors. Especially mixed use ones such as New York or entrances to Bays such as the Chesapeake. Any where there’s mixed use (military,commercial, ferries, water taxis and recreational) there’s someone watching who’s on the water, what size it is (can it damage a bridge or other structure) what’s carrying (hazmat etc.). They will raise you and ask about those issues and well may ask who is the operator and his/hers credentials. In several places beyond captaincy they may want a certificate of competency (Europe) or other credential. Depending upon your response they may bar you

I have been transiting the Cape Cod Canal since the 70's, and in and around VTS in NY and other ports. I have never heard of anyone being asked for "certificate of competancy", whatever that is. Cape cod canal will ask Capts name,last port and destination...No other info usually.

 

[alormaria]

"One thing to keep in mind is when I thought I’d get a captains license many years ago my attorney told me not to. He said if I was ever involved in an accident I would be held to a higher level than if I didn’t have one. Forty years later I don’t have a captains license. :lol:
One of the main reasons I didn't complete my "Master 5" was the increased penalties for minor infringements.
Not worth the hassle."


I have no idea what you people are talking about and I've had my license for 20 years.

 

[slymeso44]

LOL harsh but true! I have been at sea 40 years and no matter the ticket some are skilled without trying and some can't drive no matter what and that's from everything from destroyers to large Lakers to tugs. and those are professional mariner , I won't even go with all the idiot with money I have seen in the recreational world Lol

 

[BandB]

One thing to keep in mind is when I thought I’d get a captains license many years ago my attorney told me not to. He said if I was ever involved in an accident I would be held to a higher level than if I didn’t have one. Forty years later I don’t have a captains license. :lol:

Our maritime attorney said that was an old sailor's tale and generally untrue. The rules don't change, the laws don't change. Your license can be exposed or lost and you can be penalized by the CG against your license, but in terms of an accident and any liability there, it is what it is. Just as ignorance of the law is no excuse, knowledge is no burden. Either you were in the right or you were in the wrong or typically somewhere in between. The damages are the same.

Now that's just the opinion of one attorney. He'd also make the point that if you've been doing it for 40+ years, there's already an assumption you should know the rules.

So, yes and no. You get a license and CG can penalize you there but in terms of accident liability, no difference.

 

[psneeld]

I have been transiting the Cape Cod Canal since the 70's, and in and around VTS in NY and other ports. I have never heard of anyone being asked for "certificate of competancy", whatever that is. Cape cod canal will ask Capts name,last port and destination...No other info usually.

Me too... never have come across this as long as long as the vessel is claimed recreational.

 

[Goingplaces]

Insurance, of course

I made a jump from 25 to 54 ft. The insurance company required a captain until I could be signed off by an approved captain/instructor. There is a form with a long list of proficiency requirements that the insurance company wanted to see. It took me about 10 hours to satisfy the instructor.

 

[Simi 60]

Our maritime attorney said that was an old sailor's tale and generally untrue. The rules don't change, the laws don't change. Your license can be exposed or lost and you can be penalized by the CG against your license, but in terms of an accident and any liability there, it is what it is. Just as ignorance of the law is no excuse, knowledge is no burden. Either you were in the right or you were in the wrong or typically somewhere in between. The damages are the same.

.

For me the light flicked on when running through the legislation and associated penalties imposed for actions that were not performed by me but as master of the vessel, I would be held accountable for.

Chose to take anther tack and do something that had no accountability or chance of loss of career, fine or jail time due to stupidity of others.

 

[rgano]

For me the light flicked on when running through the legislation and associated penalties imposed for actions that were not performed by me but as master of the vessel, I would be held accountable for.

Chose to take anther tack and do something that had no accountability or chance of loss of career, fine or jail time due to stupidity of others.

Command at sea is definitely not for everyone, but for those who choose the path, the gratification of success out there can be beyond measure.

In the words of Joseph Conrad, (you "get" this, or you don't)

“Command at Sea: the prestige, privilege and burden of command

Only a seaman realizes to what great extent an entire ship reflects the personality and ability of one individual, her Commanding Officer. To a landsman, this is not understandable - and sometimes it is even difficult for us to comprehend - but it is so!

A ship at sea is a different world in herself, and in consideration of the protracted and distant operations of the fleet units, the Navy must place great power, responsibility and trust in the hands of those leaders chosen for command.

In each ship there is one man who, in the hour of emergency or peril at sea, can turn to no other man. There is one who alone is ultimately responsible and accountable for the safe navigation, engineering performance, accurate gunfire and morale of the ship. He is the Commanding Officer. He is the ship!

 

[Simi 60]

Command at sea is definitely not for everyone, but for those who choose the path, the gratification of success out there can be beyond measure.

Yep
But for most, the financial reward for that level of responsibility simply is not there.

 

[jimfrens]

The license requirements (aside from insurance company requirements) begin when you take paying passengers, even on a 'recreational' boat, regardless of boat size. Up to six paying passengers, you only need a OUPV (6pack) license. More than six, or if the vessel itself requires a Certificate of Inspection, then you need a Master license, as in 25 Ton / 50 Ton / 100 Ton.

 

[Steel N Time]

Yep
But for most, the financial reward for that level of responsibility simply is not there.

It is not about financial reward at all when piloting your own vessel?!?

All this BS people spread about additional liability and infractions is mostly just that.... If you are cruising in foreign countries their laws prevail and they don’t care for the most part what the USCG says....

All this going down the rabbit hole is silly.... he doesn’t even know when he needs to have a “Captain” and it sounds like it more about convenience and luxury and less about the “need” as he phrased it in his original question.....

If you have to ask..... you should probably hire a captain.... If he had the confidence and skills this entire post would not exists... and all the chest pounding and bragging about USCG credentials would not be needed....

He clarified above that most are “missing the point” it’s about ease of life and not about ability.... he asked a question that was phrased poorly then pisses on the advice given based on his poorly phrased question.... Let him figure it out on his own... ��