Auto pilot or radar ....

[psneeld]

Funny, based on a zillion stories of solo cruisers who are recognized worldwide as true masters.....

I figured any sailor worth his salt "knows" when they can safely leave the helm for short periods of time.

 

[jleonard]

Auto pilot doesn't mean you don't have to pay attention. I am always at the helm, auto pilot or not. No sailor worth his salt would leave the bridge unmanned

True. I don't "set and forget". I just don't care to always have my hands on the wheel. I let "Abe" to that for me. If I want to use the binoculars, or get up and stand for a bit or walk around the bridge I can do so without concern.
When I'm in a tight channel or river bend/current do I manually steer? Of course I do.
How about breakfast or lunch while underway? Abe lets me do that without having to use my knee to keep on course.
And how could I respond to these posts while underway if I had to have my hands on the wheel? (LOL)
We named our autopilot "Abe" because he freed the slaves. I am no longer a slave to the helm. I enjoy boating much much more.
YMMV

 

[Codger2]

I figured any sailor worth his salt "knows" when they can safely leave the helm for short periods of time.

That's my philosophy although I shore it up with a good AP and several cameras that can be viewed on the way to/ back from the head.

 

[AKDoug]

I use autopilot every time I use the boat.
I use radar less than 10% of the time. And of those times, less than half I really need it.
I do not need it to see buoys. I know where I am by looking at my chart plotter. It's an old one but it's dead on.

I say get autopilot. It runs the boat so you can pay attention to other things like keeping a good lookout.

Ditto!

 

[caltexflanc]

Ditto!

Just wait until one of those buoys goes off station (read the LNMs and you'll see this is not infrequent). Or venture somewhere new where the chartplotter is not dead on, something else that is not infrequent with even the very best equipment and charts. The chartplotter shows you theoretical information as to what the world should be like, radar and depth sounder show you the world as it actually is.

 

[AKDoug]

My situation is quite different here, there are no buoys and I am transiting open water from point to point at 5.5-7 knots almost always. The charts are usually off, since we haven't had NOAA updates since before the 1964 Earthquake in most places, and my plotter often shows me I am driving cross country when near shore.

I would still opt for autopilot over radar if I had to choose just one of the two.

 

[Portage_Bay]

My situation is quite different here, there are no buoys and I am transiting open water from point to point at 5.5-7 knots almost always. The charts are usually off, since we haven't had NOAA updates since before the 1964 Earthquake in most places, and my plotter often shows me I am driving cross country when near shore.

I would still opt for autopilot over radar if I had to choose just one of the two.

There is another possible reason for "driving cross country when near land" that extends beyond areas affected by earthquakes. In remote areas some of the surveys the charts are based on are quite old, much older than 1964. The techniques back in the day made use of no electronics, that wasn't an option. A reference point would be established, a bay or inlet or any area being surveyed would be relative to that reference point. The resulting survey would be very accurate with respect to the established reference point. But the reference point could be displaced on the earth's surface. Think about what would have been involved in terms of accuracy to set up a reference point in a remote area. It's not remarkable the reference point was off, rather that so few were off and usually by such a small amount. Because prior to GPS and Loran most got around inshore and near shore areas by range and bearing the geographic offset of the area was not a significant problem when the charts were made. Now that most of us use GPS most of the time it's a different story. In some areas that are less traveled by big traffic the original surveys have not been updated / corrected. A lot of the offsets have been corrected, but not 100% yet.

It's been quite a while since I've seen errors that are caused by the offset but I'm aware that some still exist. Keeping that in mind when I first travel a remote area I check the date of the survey and go by radar range and bearing keeping a sharp eye on the sounder and looking out the windows to make sure it all makes sense. The plotter will keep a track line which I can then compare to what really happened. I used to have a set of images that demonstrated what I'm talking about but they got lost in a hard drive crash. I was passing between an island and larger peninsula both with steep shores, the peninsula shore was relatively strait. Deep water all the way, I could scrape the rocks and not run aground. It was about 400 ft wide. Easy peasy, line up down the channel and go. My eyeballs showed me in the center of the channel, the radar confirmed. I glanced at the plotter and saw the track line "driving cross country". I took a screen shot of the plotter, a pic of the radar display and a pic out the wheel house windows. It was a beautifully simple example of the concept.

Oh well, an interesting thread drift from the OP's post about auto pilot vs radar on a 25 ft boat on Lake Michigan and the upper Miss River. But not really relevant to his question. I think radar is a very valuable tool used for both navigation and collision avoidance. I use it 100% of the time I'm underway. But, on a 25 ft boat the radar will be very small and the VRM and EBL use will likely be clumsy. If he can afford only one then go for the auto pilot.

 

[caltexflanc]

But, on a 25 ft boat the radar will be very small and the VRM and EBL use will likely be clumsy.

The modern smaller form factor radars are quite good at all that actually. Excellent a near -to-midrange object detection as well. Even one or two generation old used stuff, take-outs from folks who must have the latest, is very good.

 

[rgano]

I'm only 30 feet and do not seem to have a trouble with radar. Granted, I do not take the boat out in rough seas so rough that I would have trouble manipulating the trackball of my Furuno radar; for that I'd need a whole lot less common sense than I currently possess and/or a bigger boat.:lol:

 

[SteveK]

My new to me boat came with radar and will soon be getting auto pilot. Lucky for me it came with radar as I would not be getting one soon. I have used radar on two boats previously and was not impressed with the blips compared to visual sightings.

My last boat, sail I installed an autopilot, first one I had as it would allow me to sail solo. setup and press the button it would do a perfect tack while you handle the sheets.

It was also possessed but in a good way. The OTTO would hold a good course. But whenever there was a log in the way it would literally steer around said log.
It only got confused when there were 2 or more logs and hesitated so I had to assist. True story, guests would say log ahead, I would say, watch OTTO, and it would go right or left and then back on course. Perhaps it was always going right or left, the log was just a reference point to see it. Or was it possessed?

 

[rgano]

My new to me boat came with radar and will soon be getting auto pilot. Lucky for me it came with radar as I would not be getting one soon. I have used radar on two boats previously and was not impressed with the blips compared to visual sightings.

Sooo, blips and visual sightings are comparable how?

For those with their mind made of pro or con radar, save yourself the time and stop reading.

Given that we all pretty much navigate with GPS plotters, there is very little out there shown on the radar, aside from off-station buoys and daymarks, which is not right where we see it on the chart except where charts are in error (noted before in this thread). This tempts people to boat in low visibility conditions with false confidence. If you are smart enough to clear the channel and stop or just stay home when zero visibility conditions prevail, you can certainly justify not having radar.

OTHER things like unlighted vessels or vessels hidden from sight by rain or fog or smoke are the blips you are looking for, and radar overlaid on electronic charts makes that important task simple - plus those fun times when electronic charts are in error or maybe you just have the wrong chart datum selected.

If it has not already, the day may come when you will be adjudged totally liable if colliding with another vessel in low visibility if you vessel is not equipped with radar. For now, you will get in trouble if you have a radar and do not use in properly resulting in a low viz collision.

 

[SteveK]

Sooo, blips and visual sightings are comparable how?

For those with their mind made of pro or con radar, save yourself the time and stop reading.

Given that we all pretty much navigate with GPS plotters, there is very little out there shown on the radar, aside from off-station buoys and daymarks, which is not right where we see it on the chart except where charts are in error (noted before in this thread). This tempts people to boat in low visibility conditions with false confidence. If you are smart enough to clear the channel and stop or just stay home when zero visibility conditions prevail, you can certainly justify not having radar.

OTHER things like unlighted vessels or vessels hidden from sight by rain or fog or smoke are the blips you are looking for, and radar overlaid on electronic charts makes that important task simple - plus those fun times when electronic charts are in error or maybe you just have the wrong chart datum selected.

If it has not already, the day may come when you will be adjudged totally liable if colliding with another vessel in low visibility if you vessel is not equipped with radar. For now, you will get in trouble if you have a radar and do not use in properly resulting in a low viz collision.

OMG, we have a radar enthusiast among us.
Blips on a screen do not at all resemble the actual vessel I can see with my own eyes, but you know that of course. 9 years with search and rescue taught me radar is an aid, the eyes see more. For instance, at 3am 3 heads huddled after a boat sank were not visible on radar.

For those with their mind made of pro or con radar, save yourself the time and stop reading.
Really snappy comment.

 

[Boat]

Not trying to prove anything, but just for the fun of it I did a google test. Got the following results running searches using the phrase "saved my life":

Radar saved my life - 43,000,000 hits
Boobs saved my life - 23,000,000 hits
Autopilot saved my life - 1,500,000 hits

Please come back and tell us how it happened if boobs ever save your life. Pictures also, please.

 

[Wayfarer]

Not trying to prove anything, but just for the fun of it I did a google test. Got the following results running searches using the phrase "saved my life":

Radar saved my life - 43,000,000 hits
Boobs saved my life - 23,000,000 hits
Autopilot saved my life - 1,500,000 hits

Please come back and tell us how it happened if boobs ever save your life. Pictures also, please.

I'm sorry to report that boobs have yet to save my life. I'll be sure to report back if they ever do.

Back to the OP's question. Before I bought my boat, I would have recommended radar without thinking, being that it's definitely a safety item. However, my boat came with an AP, and no radar, and I think I'm glad it worked out that way. I've used my autopilot a lot, and I haven't needed a radar yet.

I'm sure that'll change when the fog rolls in, but so far, that's where I'm at.

 

[Capt. Jon]

Both! We use both every time we use the boat. Radar even in the day with clear weather as it’s use then makes the transition into low visibility much easier!

 

[rgano]

OMG, we have a radar enthusiast among us.
Blips on a screen do not at all resemble the actual vessel I can see with my own eyes, but you know that of course. 9 years with search and rescue taught me radar is an aid, the eyes see more. For instance, at 3am 3 heads huddled after a boat sank were not visible on radar.

For those with their mind made of pro or con radar, save yourself the time and stop reading.
Really snappy comment.

So now we conflate the good seamanlike use of radar to avoid collision with search and rescue looking for bobbing head? Apples and oranges, BUT, on a calm day my radar sees birds on the water far less dense and smaller than a human head.

Radar enthusiast? Dunno, but I darned well know how to use one to prevent truly awful events. Safety enthusiast, yes!

I have been using radar since 1965, and I must say that I have seen some which are pretty worthless, but even though it is over ten years old, my current radar and its auto-tracking capability in my 30-foot boat does what a room full of electronic cabinets did in guided missile destroyers designed in the 60s and considered pretty advanced at the time.

 

[Blazys]

for a boat under 30 feet, cruising Lake Michigan, Upper Mississippi River and other trawlerable places which is more desirable as we can not afford both at one time ... Radar to interface with the GPS or autopilot to interface with GPS?

Looking to update our Acadia 25.

Bob.

My choice would be the AP. Only use radar on a limited basis. Just avoid bad weather. That's easy to saw. I too cruise Buzzard's Bay are Long Island sound
and sometimes the fog just crashes in. But you still have GPS and with AP go slow and watch the GPS

 

[AKDoug]

The OP was which one... So if only one, then autopilot, and I would adjust everything else in my schedule. No coming into unknown anchorages after dark, or running at higher speeds in the fog. But it sure is nice in fog and darkness (and rain), and when running slow in shipping lanes so you can see yourself being overtaken by faster vessels (especially large ones).

I use autopilot constantly, radar occasionally, and never in clear weather unless curious about the distance to a point or vessel. My 3G is good close in, but of little use past three miles. It was part of a package including the MFD and Radar, adding autopilot was parts and pieces using the MFD as the control head. I was fortunate I already had hydraulic steering so it was an easy install.

Next MFD I purchase will upgrade my radar to something like the HALO, with much better range. 3G does what I need it to do, get me into unknown anchorages in places where the chart plotter is known to be inaccurate and avoid running into things in the dark and fog.

 

[CaptClay]

Radar vs AutoPilot

You've got some good comments so far. Of the 14K miles we traveled we used the autopilot daily as it steers truer than I can and fatigue isn't as bad as hand steering. Note some of your replies come from many varried parts of the country. If you encounter fog regularly, radar is nice but I'd also opt for AIS. I got caught in severe fog 1 or 2 times all on LI sound or Cape Cod area. By far the best alternative in this case is to get off the open water.

Another point you didn't say if you were single handing or with crew? Auto pilot moves up in priority if single handing. I had never boated longer distances and would not have listed an autopilot high on my list of want to haves, but it became my best buddy! I vote for autopilot.

 

[Mlhess86]

Radar vs auto pilot

There are lots of reasons to have both At times. Auto pilot can be utilized in fog to steer a steady course and allow you the ability to focus on navigation or other things. Radar however depending on the setup and user can be used to safely navigate, avoiding other vessels and buoys. It can also be used to verify your position when comparing the radar picture to a chart or electronic chart.

If you travel by your self most of the time, autopilot might have more value. But if there is someone else who can man the helm for a minute while you focus on other things, Radars value far outweighs autopilot In terms of navigation and safety. I would suggest radar over auto pilot.

 

[koliver]

Just a thought.... for other boaters not that familiar.... would not a "Secuite" call been more appropriate than a "Pan Pan" if there was no immediate danger?

Pan Pan is to alert others that YOU are in a spot of trouble, though no lives are currently at risk.
Securité is to advise all and sundry of important safety information. This is generally information that will affect THEM.

Personal information about your own lack of visibility in fog, without sophisticated instrumentation, falls into the first category, IMHO.

 

[garycasey]

I'll put my vote in for the autopilot. I've been cruising the Great Lakes for 40 years in several different boats and with a powerboat the autopilot is in use virtually 100% of the time. I've only really wanted a radar once in that time, but I made it with GPS guiding the way. And with modern weather reporting you rarely get surprised with fog. GPS tracking for the AP? It's only a little bit handy, but not much. A small boat with a handheld GPS, handheld radio and autopilot would be the ideal low-cost combination. I sail a boat with that equipment and I have never felt shortchanged. That's all my opinion, and you know what you just paid for that!

 

[rslifkin]

Pan Pan is to alert others that YOU are in a spot of trouble, though no lives are currently at risk.
Securité is to advise all and sundry of important safety information. This is generally information that will affect THEM.

Personal information about your own lack of visibility in fog, without sophisticated instrumentation, falls into the first category, IMHO.

If a boat calls a Pan Pan, I'd assume that they're in need of or expecting assistance of some form, just without the immediate danger signified by a Mayday. A Securité call would be to provide information, but without expecting assistance. As in "we're at X location, navigating slowly in fog with very limited visibility." You want another vessel to be aware of your location and condition (for their safety and yours), but you're not requesting assistance from them.

 

[Wayne]

'Lo All, I have always singlehanded my boats, even with other folks aboard. My first big boat was a 46' sailboat. I moved to Panama City on the Gulf of Mexico. After hand steering all the way from the Chesapeake Bay to Panama City, I installed an autopilot. My enjoyment of operating the boat increased dramatically. I used the autopilot about 98% of the time, using a handheld remote. I even went "sailfishing" - trolling while under sail. I just let the boat go in whatever direction gave me the easiest sail and the best trolling speed. Then I sold the sailboat and bought the Celestial - an Albin 43 sundeck. It had an old Furuno radar, but no autopilot. The Celestial had a long and fairly deep keel, but it still wandered a lot, so I installed an autopilot that I then used about 99% or more of the time. As soon as I left the dock, I used the autopilot's remote to steer the boat. Installation was simple, as the Celestial had hydraulic steering. I had an old Garmin GPS, but could not get it to cooperate with the Furuno even though the output/input sentences supposedly were correct for both. I almost never used the radar as it was installed in a recessed box on the far side of the helm. Then, the boat was struck by lightning - on a VHF antenna - and every electronic device on the boat was destroyed. BoatUS said to replace everything that was destroyed. They didn't care if it was the exact same brand/model of electronics, just functionally the same. I ended up with an integrated Garmin system that was fantastic. Still, with the new radar properly positioned to use it from the helm seat, I really only used it to learn how to operate it well. I actually used it occasionally at night, but not often at other times. I continued to use the autopilot from dock to dock, except when passing under a bridge or close to a ship, where the steel could affect the autopilot (it never did). It simply could steer the boat better than I could and let me look out for other boats, debris, etc. It made it much easier to run the "Ditch" which runs from Apalachicola to Choctawhatchee Bay via St Andrews Bay at Panama City. Radar or auto-pilot? Autopilot hands down.

 

[Alaskaflyer]

It really depends on the type of boating you’re doing or your comfort level with being able to adjust your underway schedule with the weather. In the years I was on Lake Superior there would’ve been a lot of days that I wouldn’t have been able to leave the dock without radar on both my personal boat and my work boats. Personally I want a boat that will allow me to safely travel in reduced visibility be it expected or unexpected. There is no way on this earth that I would ever travel in complete darkness or in less than 1/4 mile visibility by just relying on the chart plotter, no more than I would rely on my assumption that a radar contact is what I think it is without identifying it objectively by spotlight, thermal imaging,, comparing it to the location of a charted object or AIS contact, etc. On the other hand autopilot would be extremely nice to have as well, and if I am a boater that would rather wait out a period of fog or ensure that I’m always back at the dock or at anchor before nightfall I might buy it first. One thing I want to mention is, don’t get a radar without training on how to use it – and I’m not just talking about the manufacture’s how to video or operating manual.

 

[Capt Richard A.]

for a boat under 30 feet, cruising Lake Michigan, Upper Mississippi River and other trawlerable places which is more desirable as we can not afford both at one time ... Radar to interface with the GPS or autopilot to interface with GPS?

Looking to update our Acadia 25.

Bob.

Radar for sure, then A/P.
Set the alarm for your parameter. Day or night.
It’s a pain sometimes to be at the helm, I agree.
I’m off the south Florida, with up to 1500 passengers a day/night. Heavy fog rolls in USCG lights burned out. I’ll take the radar.
What I’ve learned to do, is radar, take the shipping/container route in the Miami. Then look for the traffic lights through the fog on the streets in Miami. Line up three lights in a row, and head in. Right in the middle of the puddle.
Best to you.

 

[Wayne.B]

for a boat under 30 feet, cruising Lake Michigan, Upper Mississippi River and other trawlerable places which is more desirable as we can not afford both at one time ...

===


Ideally you'd have both but I'm sure you know that. At night and in fog, radar is your eyes. Would you run without them? Probably not. On the other hand an auto pilot is like having an extra crew member who never gets tired our loses concentration - very valuable on a long run. So, if you never have any need for running in fog or at night, it's an easy choice. Or, if you only make relatively short hops, and always have an extra crew member available, an AP could be regarded as a luxury.


If you do opt for radar make sure you practice with it when it's not actually needed. Learn to evaluate crossing situations instinctively using bearing lines since that is where it is most valuable. I know someone who had a collision in fog because he did not know how to evaluate what he was seeing on radar, and believed he had the right of way.

 

[Senojev]

Autopilot or radar

As a longtime Lake Michigan sailor, I would say that an autopilot would be my choice. Fog is comparatively rare unless you are in the upper area, then you can just stay put. If you are more than a couple of miles offshore there is minimal boat traffic. Inshore, radar often gets clogged with the numerous fishing charter boats. OTOH if you spend much time on the river system, AIS would be very useful as it allows you to see traffic around the bend as well as the commerical shipping on Lake Michigan which can be quite close to shore (also the cross lake ferries).


Radar would be my third priority, perhaps a Furuno First watch feeding your iPad or iphone.

 

[Lecomte38]

Auto pilot

You will use your autopilot every day. GPS keeps you in the center of the channel. I use my radar 2x per year in the fog capital of the world, Maine.

 

[Larry M]

I’m not sure if this has been mentioned but how about getting a good but budget AP. Then add a Furuno 1st Watch radar for less than $900 (I’m assuming you have an iPad or iPhone).

https://www.hodgesmarine.com/furdrs...QM81JbW_jgMt7whBCl0LHH0tON4UxuNoaAvIDEALw_wcB