Big insurance increase from Geico/Boat US

[Scooby5959]

Costco risk analysis

Deaf ears seems to be a 2 way street here.

As a trained accident investigator, it is true the current mantra is that most incidents are preventable, but it is also taught that the end user isn't always responsible for the incident.

So while some here have lots of experience with hazardous professions ( so do I).... I also have extensive accident investigation training and thinking one can prevent all hazards, all the time is a pipe dream.

Cost risk analysis, I think that’s what they call it ,not sure anyways ,you look at the risks and decide if they’re worth taking or not ,when I move down here to the coast there wasn’t a marina within a 2 Hr Drive that I found acceptable ,so I pulled my boat out of the water and kept it on my property for a year or so ,then when I sold my house I sold the boat ,I built this house then I bought the boat I currently own my mine trawler sitting on a trailer ,a big part of the reason ,I like having my boat on my property and I’m not willing to drive two hours to a marina that’s acceptable ,risk analysis I think that’s what they call it,I realize this has gone to the ridiculous side however I’m having fun,Sarcastic humor look it up ,not a very good character trait I guess ,but I love it nonetheless

 

[twistedtree]

No shirt just doesn’t happen there are a whole lot of irresponsible people with insurance ,I could explain why , would fall on deaf ears ,you can’t make people hear what they don’t want to hear....

Yes, I would say you are well entrenched in your own echo chamber.


So basically your position is that you can prevent all casualties - not just losses of your own property, but also damage to other people and property - and therefore don't need insurance and don't want to pay for it because it's just paying into a pool for people who can't prevent all casualties like you can.


What about people who are less skilled at casualty prevention. What if my boat burns up and takes yours with it, and I have no insurance. You don't think I should be responsible for your boat even if I my burned up boat is my only asset? What about all the wrecked and abandoned boats all along our waterways? Are you OK with them not having insurance or the persona capacity to remove the wreck and clean up after themselves?

 

[Scooby5959]

Round and round

Yes, I would say you are well entrenched in your own echo chamber.


So basically your position is that you can prevent all casualties - not just losses of your own property, but also damage to other people and property - and therefore don't need insurance and don't want to pay for it because it's just paying into a pool for people who can't prevent all casualties like you can.


What about people who are less skilled at casualty prevention. What if my boat burns up and takes yours with it, and I have no insurance. You don't think I should be responsible for your boat even if I my burned up boat is my only asset? What about all the wrecked and abandoned boats all along our waterways? Are you OK with them not having insurance or the persona capacity to remove the wreck and clean up after themselves?

I know this is going around and round kind of silly ,however Mandating insurance isn’t going to solve your abandonment problem just like it doesn’t solve the abandon car problem ,if my neighbors boat burns up and causes my boat to burn up and has no insurance ,as part of the risk assessment if I’m worried about it ,I should get insurance ,I’m gonna have no way of knowing if he has insurance,I have moved my boat before because of our drunk neighbor ,had a fish out of the water one day he was so sfaced drunk ,he Yelled at me for most likely saving his life 50° water 3 knot current

 

[rslifkin]

I know this is going around and round kind of silly ,however Mandating insurance isn’t going to solve your abandonment problem just like it doesn’t solve the abandon car problem ,if my neighbors boat burns up and causes my boat to burn up and has no insurance ,as part of the risk assessment if I’m worried about it ,I should get insurance ,I’m gonna have no way of knowing if he has insurance,I have moved my boat before because of our drunk neighbor ,had a fish out of the water one day he was so sfaced drunk ,he Yelled at me for most likely saving his life 50° water 3 knot current

Those crappy neighbors are why at least liability insurance should be required. Who cares if they get nothing for losing their boat from stupidity. But it's nice to know that if they take yours out in the process, they've at least got coverage for that (and you won't be stuck with the bill for something you didn't have direct control over).

 

[Seevee]

I hate to take the side that's getting beat up on, but I will. Scooby makes some EXCELLENT points and logically thinks out his risks and insures accordingly. So does Soo Valley.

Like I mentioned before, insurance is only a risk/benefit calculation so do what's appropriate for you. If you're just "average" you'll likely pay a lot more than you need to. You pay for the salesmen, office people, profit, big buildings, etc….

So, look at the risk: Unfortunately there's no stats on trawlers, but if you lump us into all boats the chance of us having an accident with our boat is a little over 1% in 30 years.... very low.

Now factor in the reasons that accidents happen:
Operator inattention
Operator inexperience
Improper lookout
Excessive speed
Navigation rules violation
Alcohol

ALL of the above are clearly easy to eliminate, and bet that the vast majority of us do. I'd be that we are a more serious group of boaters that the weekend wannabes. We boat more often, train more often, pay more attention. But if we can conquer the above that reduces the accident likelihood stats to 1/3 of 1% in 30 years. Seriously unlikely. And we can actually do better than that.

Now take that number and you still have to determine fault to deal with who pays. Unless there’s negligence, there is no liability. If your boat burns down in a marina after being stuck by lightning (example above), it’s NOT your fault.

I could argue strongly to spend your premium dollars on safety items, training and things that protect you. The insurance does NOT protect you, it only makes you financially whole, that that could be a stretch.

Now, there is an argument for liability. Granted the risk is infinitesimally small, and most likely you’ll never face it a hundred lifetimes, but it may be financially unsurvivable. If some is negligent they should write the check for the damage they caused.

There’s also the argument not to over insure. The lawyers DO go after the money and I’ve personally seen an innocent persons policy pay out 7 figure judgments that are totally wrong.

And making laws won’t work. Keep the government OUT of it. Auto insurance doesn’t work. Flood insurance doesn’t work. And there’s TONS of fraud.

And a final argument. If you want insurance for your boat, buy it. Don’t worry about the other guy…. Especially folks on this list.


====
Also, the personal attacks on Scooby are totally inappropriate!

 

[bowball]

@Seevee
However, like cars, if I have to pay for damage from an uninsured boater running in to my boat, who isn’t carrying insurance and/or is financially under resourced to pay for the damages, even if significant money is spent on legal action, my insurance costs go up to cover that risk. So their decision not to insure affects the costs I pay.

Consequently it isn’t only live and let live, which is why auto insurance is mandatory. Boats should probably be required to carry insurance that covers damages to others. And environmental coverage from fuel leaks, etc. not every damage that can be caused is born only by the owner who is financially under resourced for all possible claims.

I think one solution is to hurt carry very high deductibles on most of the policy, which is what I do.

 

[O C Diver]

I hate to take the side that's getting beat up on, but I will. Scooby makes some EXCELLENT points and logically thinks out his risks and insures accordingly. So does Soo Valley.

Like I mentioned before, insurance is only a risk/benefit calculation so do what's appropriate for you. If you're just "average" you'll likely pay a lot more than you need to. You pay for the salesmen, office people, profit, big buildings, etc….

So, look at the risk: Unfortunately there's no stats on trawlers, but if you lump us into all boats the chance of us having an accident with our boat is a little over 1% in 30 years.... very low.

Now factor in the reasons that accidents happen:
Operator inattention
Operator inexperience
Improper lookout
Excessive speed
Navigation rules violation
Alcohol

ALL of the above are clearly easy to eliminate, and bet that the vast majority of us do. I'd be that we are a more serious group of boaters that the weekend wannabes. We boat more often, train more often, pay more attention. But if we can conquer the above that reduces the accident likelihood stats to 1/3 of 1% in 30 years. Seriously unlikely. And we can actually do better than that.

Now take that number and you still have to determine fault to deal with who pays. Unless there’s negligence, there is no liability. If your boat burns down in a marina after being stuck by lightning (example above), it’s NOT your fault.

I could argue strongly to spend your premium dollars on safety items, training and things that protect you. The insurance does NOT protect you, it only makes you financially whole, that that could be a stretch.

Now, there is an argument for liability. Granted the risk is infinitesimally small, and most likely you’ll never face it a hundred lifetimes, but it may be financially unsurvivable. If some is negligent they should write the check for the damage they caused.

There’s also the argument not to over insure. The lawyers DO go after the money and I’ve personally seen an innocent persons policy pay out 7 figure judgments that are totally wrong.

And making laws won’t work. Keep the government OUT of it. Auto insurance doesn’t work. Flood insurance doesn’t work. And there’s TONS of fraud.

And a final argument. If you want insurance for your boat, buy it. Don’t worry about the other guy…. Especially folks on this list.


====
Also, the personal attacks on Scooby are totally inappropriate!

I'm ok with Scooby not having comprehensive insurance. Liability and wreck removal should be required by law. If his boat is trailerable, the cost would be minuscule. My 16' river boat is a no cost add on to my homeowner's liability insurance.

Ted

 

[psneeld]

I may wind up getting liability only with environmental/salvage as insurance...but I have a throwaway boat that I probably won't replace. That I can afford to risk on my own, but not the others as they would negatively impact my standard of living.

So I get it, it isn't rocket science. But for those with any financing, insurance is usually mandatory.

I have been asked for insurance at many marinas, but never asked if I would bond or self insure...maybe but that might get complicated fast as the person checking you in often wouldn't have a clue from my experiences. Now what? Sure go back out and anchor? Not worth it to me.

I wouldn't know how to take the stats relating to clain and probabilities...not sure they get specific enough. Of course the risks are lower with your boat sitting in your yard. Sure they are lower when you cruise less than 200 hrs a year and severely limit your cruising area. But they never go to zero, you just accept paying out of pocket for the more minor ones.

 

[kthoennes]

I know Scooby is on a rant, but come on now. I like driving big posh Cadillac Escalades, which I suppose helps reduce my risk of personal injury in a collision, ha! (I buy used though, never new, I'm not insane.) Anyway, three times over the past two years I was dead-stopped at a red light and got rear-ended by boneheads staring into their cell phones not paying attention. My damage was comparatively minimal, but $2-$5K each time. Not my bill.

Example 2: Last season an early 80's (late 70's?) Holiday Mansion houseboat came into the marina way too hot on a windy day and plowed into the stern of pristine Cruisers aft cabin 375, just sitting in his slip, moored to the dock posts. Pushed a chunk of the master stateroom wall right onto the bed. Kind of like a scene from the Godfather, but instead of a horse's head, you roll over and find your transom window in bed with you. Or like a miniature Stockholm/Andrea Doria replay, you wake up to somebody else's bow railing resting on your pillow.

I suppose if I had kept the Escalade in the garage and never driven anywhere, and that Cruisers owner had never launched his boat and kept it bubble wrapped in the storage yard -- yep, totally preventable.

 

[syjos]

At a minimum, liability insurance.......but.

A few years ago, we had a fire at our YC. 5 or 6 boats in boathouses burned and/or sunk. 2 or 3 boathouses also destroyed.

We know which boat caught fire first. It sank and by the time it was refloated the next day, investigators were unable to determine the cause of the fire so that boats owner was not liable for losses to the other boats and boathouses. Each boat owner suffering loss filed with their own boat and boathouse insurance carrier.

It was interesting that two boatowners with Boat US insurance had representatives at the YC by the next day coordinating cleanup and salvage for the owners. The two owners, whose boats were total losses, received a check from Boat US in 3 days for the full amount of the policy. Other owners with different insurance carriers were not so quickly compensated. Most took nearly a month and one 4 months to be reimbursed by their carrier!

Liability insurance only pays if liability can be proven through negligence or lack of maintenance.

 

[Seevee]

@Seevee
However, like cars, if I have to pay for damage from an uninsured boater running in to my boat, who isn’t carrying insurance and/or is financially under resourced to pay for the damages, even if significant money is spent on legal action, my insurance costs go up to cover that risk. So their decision not to insure affects the costs I pay.

Consequently it isn’t only live and let live, which is why auto insurance is mandatory. Boats should probably be required to carry insurance that covers damages to others. And environmental coverage from fuel leaks, etc. not every damage that can be caused is born only by the owner who is financially under resourced for all possible claims.

I think one solution is to hurt carry very high deductibles on most of the policy, which is what I do.

Bowball,


That's just the way it is.. and really nothing we can do about it. I don't like it anymore that you do. And that's why I'm against mandated insurance... just doesn't work.



There is an argument with a very high deductible and protect ones self for a major event, but those policies are pretty rare.


Yes, if one has insurance, you pay for all the losses, the folks without insurance, their overhead and on and on.... your choice.

 

[markpierce]

All vessels in the Vallejo Municipal Marina must have current insurance with
liability amounts of at least $300,000 (with Vallejo Municipal Marina listed as additional
insured)

 

[Hippocampus]

Folks think what you want but please don’t come anywhere close to me without decent insurance. Not next to me. Not in the same marina. Not even in the same cruising grounds whose natural beauty I love.
View your comments as profoundly ego centric. Perhaps you are suit proof and can absorb a multimillion claim as you still have income coming in and minimal assets to lose which you could replace in a year or two. I don’t know you. I do know sh-t happens. Making people and environment whole afterwards requires deep pockets. I don’t have sufficiently deep pockets so can’t self insure and expect to make others and the environment whole again even after surrendering everything I have in the world. I am concerned about others and conserving nature. So I would not boat without insurance. Even if I was tort proof or believed “I have the odds with me…risk is so low I’ll take my chances”.
Think back to the Australian folks who left their boat docked a Nd the fecal matter hit the fan in their absence. They were not to blame but were responsible. S—- happens. Even to prudent mariners.

 

[catalinajack]

Oh by the way most Marina’s if not all of them privately owned ,are self-insured carry a policy for a catastrophe and that’s about it ,a state owned facility is exempt from lawsuits ,maybe you could do something about that ,kind of doubt it,When a Marina ask for your insurance ,ask them for there’s the look on there face will be priceless

Hundreds and hundreds of marinas out there and you proclaim to somehow know that each and every one them are self-insured except for catastrophes which you do not define. I call bull poop.

 

[Scooby5959]

Well get ready to put your waiters on ,not on are most of them self insured ,it goes farther than that ,if they’re required to have Workmen’s Comp. for employees any injuries happen they usually pay that out of their pocket ,anything to avoid a claim ,claims on your insurance can put you out of business can’t afford the rate hike avoid claims at all costs ,to a point where they will screen employees to avoid claims hire subcontractors to avoid insurance and claims I’ve known several marina owners that their self insured ,As well as every medium to large size business that can afford to , are self-insured you can take it to the bank

 

[Scooby5959]

Oh I just thought of something, I know of two marinas couldn’t get insurance if they wanted it ,the marina needs work ,insurance company I won’t insure it-and the state or county which ever applies won’t issue permits because of environmental reasons, I know one marina owned by yacht club members that had all the permits necessary to make repairs Only to have the environmental people tell them no ,and they can’t even make repairs to make the marina safe ,they’re not allowed to do anything

 

[catalinajack]

Well get ready to put your waiters on ,not on are most of them self insured ,it goes farther than that ,if they’re required to have Workmen’s Comp. for employees any injuries happen they usually pay that out of their pocket ,anything to avoid a claim ,claims on your insurance can put you out of business can’t afford the rate hike avoid claims at all costs ,to a point where they will screen employees to avoid claims hire subcontractors to avoid insurance and claims I’ve known several marina owners that their self insured ,As well as every medium to large size business that can afford to , are self-insured you can take it to the bank

Again, I call bull. How do you know all this? Are you friends with all marina owners? You appear to be making broad assumptions with limited data. And your ignorance is profound. In two minutes of research I found that nearly every state REQUIRES employers to PURCHASE workers comp insurance, no self-insurance.

 

[SteveK]

All vessels in the Vallejo Municipal Marina must have current insurance with liability amounts of at least $300,000 (with Vallejo Municipal Marina listed as additional insured)

I have $2 mil which seems standard. That $300,000 will it cover an environmental issue? Guessing more for property damage

 

[psneeld]

In a USA marina, especially one that is enclosed or mostly so, the cleanup may not be that much...depending on what and how much you leak and whether there is any fine.

Out of hundreds of salvage simkings I went on, many even most had no cleanups required. Granted the vast majority were smaller ( less than 30 feet).... but even up to 80 foot commercial vessels rarely leaves more than a little fuel or oil till it was boomed off.

 

[Scooby5959]

Call it what you want you would be wrong

Again, I call bull. How do you know all this? Are you friends with all marina owners? You appear to be making broad assumptions with limited data. And your ignorance is profound. In two minutes of research I found that nearly every state REQUIRES employers to PURCHASE workers comp insurance, no self-insurance.

As I stated above ,we’re insurance is required such as Workmen’s Comp. companies do everything they can minimize there exposure ,Google list of self insured ,It’s in alphabetical order pages long ,large companies like Home Depot ,companies that you’ve never heard of, all self-Insured ,I worked for a large boat hauling company for a while ,He would tell his customers when they ask what kind of insurance he had ,if you want insurance get insurance the contract was very clear ,he was not responsible or any damage. If you didn’t like it find somebody else to haul your boat,Too many people saw it as an opportunity to get needed work done they don’t have to pay for, fraud Is Rampant In the insurance industry,A lot of self important entitled Thieves out there ,they think they can tell you the way it is ,wrong,

 

[cks]

Just dumped Geico for Chubb!

 

[Larry M]

…I stated above ,we’re insurance is required such as Workmen’s Comp. companies do everything they can minimize there exposure...

Let’s stay on track here. This is a boating Forum….Workman's Comp?

Thanks for understanding.

 

[Scooby5959]

Let’s stay on track here. This is a boating Forum….Workman's Comp?

Thanks for understanding.

Good point

 

[backinblue]

I have Progressive and they seemed easy and reasonable at the time. Haven't noticed any increases lately.

 

[Hippocampus]

Have a friend who owns a boatyard and an acquaintance who recently sold a chain of boatyards.
They have WC.
They have huge liability policies both for their properties, the boats inside, their equipment, and most expensive environmental.
They also have trip and fall, theft, fire, flooding and various other policies.
Even an owner of a chain of yards doesn’t have deep enough pockets to cover potential exposures. As stated in my prior post unless you are profoundly egocentric and tort proof due to having no or few personal assets insurance is a necessary evil. Insurance makes it’s money on its investments not on the premiums. The premiums serve to generate the funds to invest. If their payouts equaled their premiums but they had sufficient funds invested their bottom line would be fine. Boating in its entirety is a small market. So for the vendors there’s the judgement does this market justify the expense of servicing and the risk of volatility against generating funds for investment. Since the impact of MMCC and its recurring 100 year events no longer being 100 year events many have said no it does not. So they have withdrawn from the market. During the years I was internationally cruising my premiums nearly doubled and available vendors halved. This is the new normal. Some here live in a alternative reality. In my view a lala land not facing the world as it now is not the world they fantasize.

 

[Benthic2]

This has been an interesting read.

Insurance is a risk mitigation tool, not a boat replacement device. It's a significant difference.

By getting insured you are spending $X,000 every year to avoid the possibility of having to pay 100+ times that amount every Y number of years. You are paying for trading the unknown for the known.

I am very familiar with Home and Auto insurance and they are very heavily regulated by the state. I assume boat insurance is the same way. All rates have to be approved by the state insurance commissioner and are based on documented calculations of frequency and severity. If an insurance company's data doesn't justify a 40% rate increase, it won't approved. If an insurance rate includes too high of a profit margin, it won't get approved. In actuallity, ( somewhere there's a really good pun with "actuary" but I'm too tired to find it ) a lot of times Insurance Companies pay out more in claims than they take in in premiums....they make their profits from their investments.

Someone mentioned that if you are average the cost of insurance will be about the same as self insuring, however, it really depends on the complexity of the Insurance Company's pricing model and which side of all of the variables you fall on. For example since everyone knows that Rocna anchors are better than a Danforth ( come on...we are 6 pages into this thing.....we should be abble to have some fun with it now).....a more sophisticated company might include "Anchor Brand" in their variables, and you'll get a discount for your Rocna. If a company does not factor in your anchor type then they will be cheaper for a Danforth user because they are being averaged in with the superior Rocna users. This was many years ago and my company was not one of the more advanced ones and I think we had 40 or so variables for auto rates. At the time Progressive had over 100. The point is that Mr Hatfield might get the best rate from Geico, and Mr McCoy might get the best rate at Progressive.....it just depends on which variables you and your boat fall on the beneficial side of.

 

[psneeld]

Simplistic....if just talking boat replacement...close but no cigar for the big picture.

When discussing liability damage or environmental issues....one case against me could easily outstrip all the premiums I have paid in a lifetime and all at once to decimate what I have and will, have (depending on the state of filing.

Rocna superior to a Danforth? Still a lot to learn out there...think an insurance company will even bite off on that concept?

 

[cardude01]

I just got my renewal from Progressive, and the premium actually went down a little.

So maybe they are still out there looking for new business? No idea.

 

[BandB]

I am very familiar with Home and Auto insurance and they are very heavily regulated by the state. I assume boat insurance is the same way. All rates have to be approved by the state insurance commissioner and are based on documented calculations of frequency and severity. If an insurance company's data doesn't justify a 40% rate increase, it won't approved. If an insurance rate includes too high of a profit margin, it won't get approved. In actuallity, ( somewhere there's a really good pun with "actuary" but I'm too tired to find it ) a lot of times Insurance Companies pay out more in claims than they take in in premiums....they make their profits from their investments.

Oh but you assume wrong in that marine insurance is not very regulated at all. While the insurers must be legal in the state to sell insurance there, the rates are not regulated by the states, nor is there a standard policy. It is not at all like auto or homeowners.

However, the rest of your post is on target. In the good years, marine insurers make reasonable profits on the insurance. However, it only takes one or two really bad years to more than offset several good years and the only thing protecting the primary insurers is re-insurance which they all have. However, the cost of re-insurance then rises significantly after catastrophic years.

 

[O C Diver]

And now to go totally off the rails:

Before insurance was required (auto) or you had to have it for your boat to keep it in most marinas, was it cheaper or more expensive as a percentage of value or liability coverage? Often, when you increase the pool size, the economics of volume reduce the individual cost. Does requiring insurance tend to increase percentage of claims?

In boating, where there is no requirement to know how to operate a boat to own one and insure it, is this what's driving up insurance costs? Should the government be requiring instruction and licensing for vessels above a certain size (maybe 25' or over 100 HP) before a person is allowed to operate it? Maybe something similar to private aviation.

Ted