Boat Search 101

[Larry M]

Thanks to all who offered their words of wisdom here. we actually got bogged down in the posts that piggybacked our original post so we forgot to post an update. We found our boat and have been more than pleased with our choice. Thanks to all!!

Congratulations!!! You may want to start a new thread instead piggybacking onto another. Your pictures and posts may get lost here.

 

[dbkoko]

Thanks Larry M. No need to start a new thread...I can't figure out how to post pics so have not plans to do that. Really had not planned to post anything else but someone asked what we bought, so I just replied to their post. Sorry if we had piggybacked and needed to move.

 

[siestakey]

Thanks Larry M. No need to start a new thread...I can't figure out how to post pics so have not plans to do that. Really had not planned to post anything else but someone asked what we bought, so I just replied to their post. Sorry if we had piggybacked and needed to move.

Sure would love to see pics when you get time

 

[Robvald]

She must love me

Excellent advice, Mr. RT. Easier said than done sometimes, but if you're not prepared to walk, you're setting yourself up to be a victim. My mantra during any large purchase is: Don't fall in love with a [insert house, car, boat or whatever]; it won't love you back.

Oh no RT. My boat def loves me. “ but I think it’s only for the money “

 

[tn6437]

i have been looking at boats for over two years , had one that i walked away from after the survey and a two others that i got beat to the punch on. having owned boats for years and trying to live on my 30ft sea ray alone for weeks at a time i decided to leave the world of 20 knot cruising for the slow pace of a trawler.
really like the grand banks and albins 36 ft aft cabins but could go for a galley down sundeck as well. i have narrowed my search down to just a couple types of boats and one type of power. i think a single diesel with a thruster is the way to go, ease of maintenence, docking on my own and best fuel economy. any thoughts about my decisions are appreciated

 

[REAL MOUNTIE]

"Boat Search 101" update

Why we bought a Pilgrim 40?...

My wife Lise and I had lived respectively a long and exciting careers. We wanted a new way of living in seeking a pleasure craft that could provide us the ultimate retirement adventure, an alternative home and a memorable summer residence as a reward to our hard-working and successful life.

Current retirement alternatives do not offer much to those who have achieved something in their life and are just ready to be put out to pasture.

We had a need for a boat that could put a sense of freedom into our retirement adventure.

There is a camaraderie in a boating community that is non-existant in a cement high-rise cities and or suburb.

Our need was also to become more involved the heartbeat of life as we are more aware of Mother Nature and her ever-changing moods something you lose with big cities.

We needed more that a summer cottage so we bought a condominium for Skiing during the snow season and we wanted to buy a kind of a Canal Barge like a Boataminium for the rest of the year.

As a Sea Cadet I have sailed since the age of 14 then became a Sailing Instructor at Cornwallis Base in N.S. during the summer as a Navy Reserve Second-Lieutenant.

Since then I chartered sailboats until 1995 and around 2001 I was tired with the handling of huge headsails, getting soaked wet in an open cockpit and living in a expensive submarine, all this at a 15 degree heel.

After a 3 year of research, we made that eccentric choice : Buy a Boat with Confidence in order to find a liveaboard for that ultimate retirement experience in order to escape the jungle of traffic, jammed bridges, construction, concrete and asphalt of big cities like Montreal, Quebec, Canada.

We wanted a Boat that fits our needs and this is why we are so grateful to Doug and Brenda Dawson for all their publications that educated us in finding the appropriate boat.

Doug, Brenda thank you for helping us to make the appropriate choice in order to realize our dream!

NOTE: We had to refer to First Mate 101 in order to resolve issues that could turn the Dream into Nightmare...

With those publications we have interpreted our Research into Reality.

We then established all the criteria for safety, economy, character, comfort, style and why not grace. We were attracted by a classic look Motor Yacht that did not look like a Clorox bottle or Wedding cake type of Motor Yacht (No offence to anyone who choose Low maintenance and Bigger budget Yacht).

We did not want high performance as we have worn out the thrill of rattling our kidneys and our dishes.
We wanted to save our pocketbook in keeping our fuel tanks filled so we would spend it visiting area to discover.

Comfort was a personal choice. We wanted to equate comfort with pleasure and enjoyment. This is one of the area's that occupied most our our research and study. We don't enjoy weathering through a storm although we did encounter some bad weather and put up with Mother Nature during our trip from Fort Pierce to Lake Champlain and we were quite satisfied and impressed with her handling and performance during a tunderstorm.

Our Boat was to be our passport to civilized adventure in the nautical living environment. We did not want a boat to win races or cross the ocean, we just wanted to enjoy ourselves on the water as is it our belief that pleasure boating is for pleasure.

This Boat was to be our escape from the pressures of day-to-day existence. as a new, exiting alternative lifestyle for we wanted to taste more of life. We needed a chage of tempo as we needed to refresh our spririts like to put a smile on our face and in our heart. We are from the '' Stop and Smell the Roses'' School of Boating Generation!

We finally bought it from Jim and Joan Elliott, formaly named CHRISTINE. Thank you Jim and Joan, for using, keeping-up, maintaining and up-grading the boat instead of letting it dry up in a yard!

« REAL MOUNTIE » is a Canadian icon for a Canadian made 1986 Pilgrim 40 Hull #28 (a.k.a. as P-40) that was developed by Ted Gozzard a talented designer, tool-maker and shipwright.

The first production boat of the Pilgrim 40 Project started in January 1983. The P-40 was designed by an Artist, Ted Gozzard who expressed his natural talent and made the proof of concept (without using a computer), envisioned it three-dimensionally, drafted it, made a model, tooled and builded it to the finest carpentry detail that would be cost prohibitived today. As inflation gained over during the late 80's, Ted did mentionned that he lost $50,000.00 Cdn when he sold his last Pilgrim 40 in 1989, he said : '' It is like tearing 10,000
CANADIAN five dollars bills...''

One may understand that you need the valuable input of a market specialist to provide practical business to a passionate Artist with Boat-Creating Talents.

Having a recurrent IRS 8840 form filling issues in cruising less than 183 days in US waters as I did not want to be taxed on world income including Canada and also in reporting for cruising licences every time we dock and anchor when we leave Beautiful Lake Champlain, I wanted to sell her. At the same time, I truly love cruising the vessel in our latest trip to the Coast and to the Abacos in 2018...

So for health reasons, being concerned to be depressed of my 9 years boating season with a great trawler, I chocked and renounce to sell to two searious buyers or rent to a potential buyer who had real estate assets.

After 9 years of ranting, I finally decided to temporary import my vessel to CANADA at Gosselin Marina who would issue a Bond for my temporary storage and work on the vessel VALID until 30th of JUNE 2019 (no extension possible) as the vessel MUST RETURN in USA or REQUIRED TO PAY the goods and services tax (GST), which is calculated at a rate of 5% on the Pilgrim 40 Fair Market Value selling price; and. the Québec sales tax (QST), which is calculated at a rate of 9.975% on the selling price excluding the GST. The officials of Customs use the BUC as the standard pratice to calculate the fair market value.

UC's USED BOAT PRICE GUIDES, a.k.a. "The BUC Book", have been the used boat pricing "Bible" for the boating industry since 1961. please refer to: http://www.buc.com/

Here is an example, on January 15 1987, in Annapolis, MD a Pilgrim 40 was sold for a delivery in May 1987, at that time one US dollar was $1.3615 CDN.

The standard cost of a Pilgrim 40 in 1986 was $187,575.00 USD and additionnal equipment was $33,820.00 USD for a grand total of $221,395 USD.

If you TRY an inflation calculator on today's internet, calculate for 2017 in USD the retail cost of a 1987 Pilgrim 40 @ $221,395 : http://www.westegg.com/inflation/

What cost $221395 in 1987 would cost $484631.06 in 2017. Also, if you were to buy exactly the same products in 2017 and 1987, they would cost you $221395 and $99773.57 respectively.

At the same time,Ted Gozzard primary design evolvement was Bayfield Sailboats. This alternative concept was more successful in marketing as he produced over 1,000 boats raging from 25' to 40' in the 80's.

What a great feeling for us to see the smiles on people who tell us : What a beautiful boat you have!

Every day, people make us realize that her striking looks is the centre of attention at our Marina or when we pull in to a harbour or an anchoring bay.

The covered screened after deck (veranda deck) is to be the best comfort place to sit and relax or have our meals. We have in addition two comfy chairs and we can accommodate half-dozen people for happy hour.

« REAL MOUNTIE » gives Lise and I, pleasure and pride of ownership in showing her classic, proven full displacement hull, with her plumb bow, fantail stern, gently arched windows, varnished mahogany trim, her sheer line, cosmetic details all combined to create an dream impression about herself and about her owners living their dreams that only one's own eyes and not our words can explain... Take your time and find a boat the was maintained with log books and that has keep servicable over the years as if it was in the hand of the original owner! I hope this help ... Kind regards and Good luck!

PS: If you want lots of boat for market price and can refit to original shape, used Pilgrim 40 are a good investement as to rebuild on band new is cost prohibitive.... Here is one interesting project for sale: https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1984/marine-trader-pilgrim-40-north-castle-marine-3252628/ CAVEAT EMPTOR: It is not a marine trader and verify all specs and Hull Identification number: XBV409M84G

 

[Art]

WOW; quite the post! - Glad you two have had and are still having FUN!

 

[NCheaven]

2016 TrawlerFest at Kent Island helped me a bunch! Steve Zimmerman taught two classes I attended, and one of them had two charts about fitting the boat to your cruising plans and intentions. Key issues were matching the distances from the coast to the type of hull, and the number of people aboard/time aboard/size of boat. I recommend contacting Steve at Zimmerman Marine to see if he will share those. Better yet, attend the next Trawlerfest near you and talk to him. He was gracious with chat after the sessions, too. (I ended up with a Camano 31, perfect for Trawler Heaven, which is coastal North Carolina - so many protected waters, large water, beautiful colonial small towns to visit, and soooooo much more.) Talking to others in attendance helped a lot, too, finding out what they liked and didn't like about their boats. Plus, there were boats from small Rangers up to a Fleming 55. Fun! 10+ years of subscribing to PassageMaker while I had other types of boats also helped, and sailing experience including cruising a little under sail makes any trawler look spacious! I have no original thoughts to add, but I sure learned a lot from so many kind boaters along the way!

Best wishes, and enjoy the process!

 

[geoleo]

Buy one that does not have lots of Kitsch like anchors and lighthouses and palm trees on the bedspread and curtains...………….and door mats...………...

 

[tn6437]

hi folks
i just got a 1986 chien hwa 35 foot senator under contract, wondering if anyone can tell me the actual dimensions of this boat. specifically the height from the very bottom of the keel to the top of the flybridge( minus the sprayshield, bimini, mast etc.

 

[Art]

hi folks
i just got a 1986 chien hwa 35 foot senator under contract, wondering if anyone can tell me the actual dimensions of this boat. specifically the height from the very bottom of the keel to the top of the flybridge( minus the sprayshield, bimini, mast etc.

If you can locate mfg's specification of draft in water. Then tape measure from top point you want to use as upper most portion to the water. By adding those together you should be within a couple inches of exact measurement. For trailering purposes on hwy's I'd error to the upper side measurement rather than the lower.

 

[swifttrawlerpeterKurki]

Great Advice!
well said.
Nice

 

[JohnWelch]

Boat Information

Is there a website for trawlers that is the equivalent of sailboatdata.com?

 

[Slowmo]

My input is to look at the total cost of ownernship, the cost to purchase is just the beginning. There's a compromise between purchase price, size, and cost to maintain the boat. The larger the boat the more it costs to maintain, and it isn't linear, it increases sharply with size. This isn't a problem as long as you anticipate it. For me I'd make sure I had 20-30K in reserve for upgrades and unexpected repairs on an older boat. No matter how careful the survey there will be things that need fixing.

 

[ssobol]

My input is to look at the total cost of ownernship, the cost to purchase is just the beginning. There's a compromise between purchase price, size, and cost to maintain the boat. The larger the boat the more it costs to maintain, and it isn't linear, it increases sharply with size. This isn't a problem as long as you anticipate it. For me I'd make sure I had 20-30K in reserve for upgrades and unexpected repairs on an older boat. No matter how careful the survey there will be things that need fixing.

There is the old adage "buy the smallest boat you are comfortable on"...

 

[Art]

There is the old adage "buy the smallest boat you are comfortable on"...

Or... Buy the largest boat you are comfortable owning!

Of course, to reach either decision correctly one needs to already know at least a fair amount about boating before choosing an applicable boat.

 

[janice142]

I would look not just at the boat, but at her actual layout. There isn't much you can do about the layout without serious money. So even if your boat isn't ideal, if the layout works over time you can make her better.

First though, live with what is there. There is a reason why the PO (Previous Owner) did things one way. Though it may not seem apparent at first, and indeed you may want to change things, being sure the change is necessary is one important way to save money.

Things like bilge pumps don't count. Upgrade them (usually there are not enough)
Don Casey's "This Old Boat" is a good one to help new owners prioritize. Also buy Calder's newest edition of Boatowner's -- don't worry about understanding it. When something is broken or needs fixing, with Calder's you may be able to do your own troubleshooting and repairs.

Every cruiser I know has Calder's aboard their boat.

I opted for smallest possible. That makes a big difference in costs, both up front and in upgrades.

Good luck. Etc.

 

[Mark P]

In searching for a boat, I see lots of references to Yatchworld. I've heard that some of the best boats sell by word of mouth at the marina or local area. Once it gets to Yatchworld, it is usually because it is overpriced or needs work, or both. Love Yatchworld as it makes great reading but thoughts from those who have more insight on my thinking. Thx.

 

[ssobol]

In searching for a boat, I see lots of references to Yatchworld. I've heard that some of the best boats sell by word of mouth at the marina or local area. Once it gets to Yatchworld, it is usually because it is overpriced or needs work, or both. Love Yatchworld as it makes great reading but thoughts from those who have more insight on my thinking. Thx.

Works the same way for jobs. Most are found/offered by word of mouth, not recruitment ads.

 

[smitty477]

In searching for a boat, I see lots of references to Yatchworld. I've heard that some of the best boats sell by word of mouth at the marina or local area. Once it gets to Yatchworld, it is usually because it is overpriced or needs work, or both. Love Yatchworld as it makes great reading but thoughts from those who have more insight on my thinking. Thx.

Yachtworld is one of many sources to find boats - no more or less valuable than others dependent upon your location and boat search specs.
I am sure some of the worst boats sell by word of mouth as well....

 

[Art]

Yachtworld is one of many sources to find boats - no more or less valuable than others dependent upon your location and boat search specs.
I am sure some of the worst boats sell by word of mouth as well....

And - If you keep a close eye on Craigslist boat adds there are sometimes cherries to be had therein.

However, they may not last but a few hours of advertising... cause others have their eyes wide open too - looking for cherries!

 

[BDofMSP]

In searching for a boat, I see lots of references to Yatchworld. I've heard that some of the best boats sell by word of mouth at the marina or local area. Once it gets to Yatchworld, it is usually because it is overpriced or needs work, or both. Love Yatchworld as it makes great reading but thoughts from those who have more insight on my thinking. Thx.

That's probably true, but where do I subscribe to word of mouth? Especially across the country? Unless you live in a very target rich environment, the likelihood of finding the right boat at the right moment for you is extremely low.

 

[altinr]

North Pacific 42-43 trawler

Hi,
I am searching for the good and bad on the North Pacific 42-43’ trawlers.
Also, if you have one with a single Cummins, please mention mpg or gph at various speeds/rpms, and your hp.
Thanks,
Bob

 

[jimdavi]

Lots of people can help you here.
Great boat, great company. Just purchased a new 45.
My 250 HP 45, (much like the others (~8-8.5 kts at 3 gph) depending on current etc. max cruise ~11 kts. Bigger engines give slight higher top end speed. Most cruise @ 1700/1800 between 7-8.5 kts

 

[dhays]

Hi,

I am searching for the good and bad on the North Pacific 42-43’ trawlers.

Also, if you have one with a single Cummins, please mention mpg or gph at various speeds/rpms, and your hp.

Thanks,

Bob

Bob, I have a 2010 NP43 that I’ve owned for 3.5 years. I bought it from the original owner through Trevor. I have been really happy with the boat.

Good:
- The layout works really well for us. My wife has retired, I’m still working. We got the NP43 because we wanted a boat that was big enough to take our family with us. We have cruised for a week with 5 adults (the two of us plus daughter, son-in-law, and son). We just finished another week with daughter, son-in-law, and 22 month old grandson).

- The boat is very quiet at cruise. We typically run at 1450 rpm burning 2.0-2.1 gph giving us 7 knots. If the hull is dirty, we won’t get that 7 knots. From 1400-1550 rpm the boat is very quiet. We do have rugs laced over the salon floor which likely helps and the PO had Trevor put a bit thicker sound insulation in the ER at build time so other NP of our vintage may not be as quiet. We have the 380hp version of the Cummins QSB 5.9L engine. The PO asked for the engine upsize when the boat was built. It is fine but the standard 330hp engine would have been more than enough power.

- The boat handles unpleasant seas well, but unpleasant seas are, well, unpleasant.
- We love the Pilothouse, rarely use the flybridge. Excellent visibility forward and to the sides.
- The electrical systems are really well designed and installed. North Pacific does a great job of labeling everything.
- Fantastic factory support, even for those of us that didn’t buy new.
- The boats are well constructed and well designed. I may post a picture of my boat perched on a rock that the PO hit at high tide at speed. There was very little damage.

Less than optimal...:
- The view aft from the pilothouse is poor to none. This makes backing into slips tough unless it is done from the flybridge. We do have a camera pointed aft from the radar arch which is useful, but since we operate from the PH most of the time, we prefer to not back into slips. I would like to add another camera on the starboard side pointed aft and that would make all the difference.

- The boat is not fast. The PO says that he ran it at 10 knots most of the time and I believe him. He had lots of money to burn so never thought about the fuel cost. However, at 10 knots the boat is loud, drains your bank account, and digs a giant hole in the water. The trim tabs on our boat keep it from going too bow high, but this is not a great boat for someone that is in a hurry.

- Having a covered aft cockpit is wonderful and I consider it essential for us in the PNW.

- Really nice anchor lockers that drain outboard.

- The fuel fills are in the forward corners of the cockpit about a foot off the deck. This means that they are protect from the weather so even if the O-rings aren’t replaced as they should be, or if a fuel filler cover isn’t tightened down all the way, there is no way water will find its way into the fuel tanks. Furthermore, there can be no confusing between fuel and water fills as the water fills are located on the steps on either side up to the boat deck.

- Well done interior woodwork and NO exterior teak!

- There is LOTS of storage in the NP43. Our biggest issue is putting so much stuff in the boat that we forget we have it.

- The swim platform on the NP43 is spacious. I have a sailing dinghy that we often keep on the Seawise davits. When I am rigging the boat to sail, the large swim platform is great. The NP42 is the same just a foot shorter.

Nit picky things...
- The PH doors are a bit heavy with a door latch that can be uncomfortable for smaller folks to use. Changed in the North Pacific 45.

- When it is wet (just about all the time in the PNW), water will drip from the PH roof onto the PH floor if the PH doors are open. This is due to the slight angle of the PH sides. Annoying and fixed in the NP45.

- Due to the build of the swim step, if anything that has been mounted on the swim step leaks, the swim step can fill with water and the water can’t really escape. That happened to us. The problem is with items that have been added by owners. In our case it was second under-the-stop swim ladder that was added and leaked over the prior 8 years. It caused the interior wood framing on the edge of the swim step to swell and the gelcoat to crack. This was present when we bought the boat. Trevor was the one who pointed it out to me at the survey (our surveyor didn’t notice it despite going over the hull carefully after I showed him the photo of the boat on the rocks). Other NP 42/43 owners have had the same issue. The fix was easy and the way to avoid it is to simply make sure that if you affix something to the swim step it is done properly (butyl tape is your friend).

- The ER is fine, but it is tight. The NP43 has a full crawl around engine room space. Knee pads are a must.

- Since the NP42/43 has raked windows in the PH, it can get very warm. Not a problem with both PH doors open, but if they are closed it can get hot. We had exterior window covers made from Pfifertex which dramatically cools it down. The new design of the NP45 eliminates this issue.

- The galley table converts to a bunk. However, it is only suitable for kids as it is very short. Having said that, my 30 year old daughter who is 5’ 8” finds it very comfortable.

- The second cabin has two ports that open for ventilation. However, in hot weather when my 6’4” 250+ lbs plus son-in-law and my daughter are sleeping in there, they claim it feels a bit stuffy. Likely, this would not be the case with the double bed configuration rather than the bunk bed configuration. Personally, I think that cabin is incredibly comfortable to sleep in.

- The two lockers just forward of the PH above the cabin top are very convenient for lines, power cords, etc... However, the hatches are angled with the front of the PH and are not water tight. So anything that gets put in there will get wet with enough rain. The have drains in them and I have put dry-deck tiles on the bottom so it isn’t a problem, but it would be nice if they were dry.

- The aft cockpit is nice, but I which it was a bit larger. We keep a 12v freezer under the ladder to the boat deck and have a set of two teak chairs and a table that we use in the cockpit. It works but it would be nice to have a bit more space there as the aft saloon door opens out into the cockpit. The NP45 improves that with its 1’ wider beam as well as the aft salon door is a slider instead of swinging out.

- We weren’t real fans of the curtains that were supplied to the PO by North Pacific. We changed those out to blinds.

- The painted aluminum window trim has spots where the paint has bubbled. It isn’t an issue for us, but eventually we may need to have that trim redone. That is one of the reasons why the NP45 has stainless window frames.

Other thoughts....

If you have any questions, email Trevor Brice of North Pacific Yachts. He truly is an outstanding gentleman and will be happy to answer any questions you have. He likes to keep track of the North Pacific boats out there and NP owners often use him as a broker when they want to sell or upgrade.

I couldn’t be happier with my boat. Initially, I didn’t consider the NP for several reasons. I wanted full walk around decks. I didn’t want a flybridge. I also wasn’t taken with the looks of the NP43. However, look what I ended up with. I find that I don’t need full walk around decks and much prefer the extra interior space the full width saloon affords. I don’t use the flybridge much, but when I do it is really nice. The looks of the NP have really grown on me. I think it is lovely now and even though it doesn’t matter a bit, we get lots of complements on our boat when are out.

Despite that wall of text, I’m sure I am forgetting both positive and negatives. Every boat is a compromise but the NP43 is the best compromise for us. If I was in a position to buy a new boat, the boat I would buy is the NP45. It has all the wonderful features that we love with the NP43 and has improved upon them. From a value/dollar perspective, it is hard to beat the North Pacific either new or used.

Let me know if you have any other questions.

 

[altinr]

Thank you! Sounds like a great boat!
Bob

 

[Mark P]

Okay, so last night Admiral and I opened some fine wine and began talking about our future boat purchase and whether to buy "older boat" or "much older boat." As you can imagine a lively discussion ensued. Since we know nothing about boats (as you can tell by our posts!), we thought, let's ask the pros. So here we are: We are looking at two boats they are both under $400K, one is a 2005 and the other is a 2013, same trawler type model, mid-thirties in length, similar equipment, single engine, the older boat has about 2500 hours, the new one 650 hours on the engine. Both look very nice in pictures. The older boat is about $100K less that the newer one. Assuming both pass engine and hull surveys acceptable for their age and hours, if you were in our shoes, which boat would you buy and why??

Thanks.

 

[Baker]

The older boat is about $100K less that the newer one. Assuming both pass engine and hull surveys acceptable for their age and hours, if you were in our shoes, which boat would you buy and why??

Thanks.

If the older boat is in good shape, why not save $100k and buy it. There is even a chance the older boat is in better shape than the newer one....or it might have more desirable options like a brand new set of electronics. And be careful calling boats like that "old" . I'd be willing to bet the vast majority of boat owners on her have boats older than the "older" boat....me included. A 2013 boat would be pretty much new to most of us.....

 

[Art]

Yo, Dave

Your honesty in the full accounting about your NP43 is... to say the least... "Refreshing"!!

Cheers!

Art

 

[Mark P]

Mr. Baker, totally understand your view, but when I use the term "old or older" it does not mean anything bad or less - it means older boats may have (and this is where I need help) have different operating characteristics - some of which I suspect are good. I know old in terms of other things - I 1have 1920's house, and drove a 1966 Galaxie for 25 years - each has its great attributes, and shortcomings if you will. For example, I would run the Galaxie to moonshine festivals in North Ga, but would never run it up to Cleveland, Oh - too much risk. That's what the admiral and I are discussing. Is a boat with 15 years on it, more like an old house that can be rebuilt and become very reliable, or is it like an older car that no matter how much you rebuild it, you are always chasing something.