Bow Damage during delivery

[markpierce]

I understand its part of the rules, like 2 short blasts of your horn when backing out of a slip, a rule that is ignored by the general boating public.

It is 3 short blasts when backing.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

It is 3 short blasts when backing.

See I don't do it, so.... Thanks for the correction.

 

[rslifkin]

I don't do the 3 blasts for backing (or the 1 long for departing a dock in any direction). I do sound 1 long at the end of the marina fairway for my home slip due to limited visibility.
Although if departing a slip with limited visibility right from the slip, then I'd signal. The noise isn't worth it when it's clear that there's no traffic and I have good visibility.

 

[markpierce]

I give a long (a full second or more) blast when exiting and entering the marina due to the breakwater blocking the view.

 

[Hippocampus]

MP do the same if situation makes it appropriate. Wish people knew their light and sound signals. Especially the 5 short and the one long. Knowing the difference between a one toot overtake or pass and a two is fairly helpful as well.
We have a reasonable amount of tug and barge tow around here. Knowing your lights is helpful with them as well.
Their pretty meaningless if who’s listening or viewing doesn’t know what they mean. I bought a laminated card that explains them. It’s left at the helm for a quick reference. The sounds are easy to remember but the card is helpful to the bride. Will admit I occasionally need the card to sort out lights. I know them for a week then promptly forget if I’m not on the boat using the information. Guess that’s one of the differences between me and the professionals on this site.

 

[Comodave]

I give a long (a full second or more) blast when exiting and entering the marina due to the breakwater blocking the view.

A prolonged blast is from 4 to 6 seconds and a short blast is 1 second.

 

[ranger58sb]

Repetitively go through NYC. AIS gives you intercept information and alarms you to vessels which maybe troublesome. Both in front and behind. Although we both visually scan and the brides job is to constantly doing that AIS is a excellent aid to navigation. Clear day or not. Totally disagree it’s only helpful when visibility is limited.

Places where density and speed of traffic is high enough neither vision nor radar are as quick as AIS to sort things out. This is especially true when there’s only one up on watch. Also think knowing the names of surrounding vessels aids VHF communication.

Believe MarineTraffic is useless for this function. Too much delay.

Only using your thoughts as a springboard ref AIS...

I'd guess less than 1% of recreational boats around here on the Chesapeake transmit AIS. I think there are 250-ish boats in our marina, and approx 12 of those transmit. (And I'd also bet that what I'm seeing now is a tenfold increase over what it was like 5 years ago around here.)

So yep, good* when someone nearby is transmitting, but that to me doesn't really tell much about the whole picture around us.

And the good* (asterisk) comes with some "except..." info too. I once watched a smaller planing boat, maybe 26-28' or so, cross our bow... well out in front, no danger at all... and he had an AIS so I was also able to "watch" him on the MFD too. First transmission before crossing our intended path was about 15° to our port. The very next transmission, he was about a half mile or more to our starboard. (Yep, no way Marine Traffic would have been useful.)

In that instance, the AIS signal was WAY out of sync with what we saw with our Mark I* eyeballs. It became apparent to me that transmission timing can be a big deal... and that AIS, while another very useful tool in the box, isn't always any better than radar, watch standers, etc.

We routinely see "vessels" around here, both radar and AIS on the same MFD, and they're always not in the same place. Radar return moves, AIS signal catches up. Another example of transmission time lag. In these cases, so far I think not a big deal -- although so far scales have been such that we haven't been close to the actual vessels anyway.

I do like AIS. I just wouldn't want folks to think it's magic.

-Chris

 

[Comodave]

I have seen these on commercial fishing boats in Alaska. I have never seen them on recreational boats.

It is part of the Nav Rules. Unless you are in a designated anchorage you are supposed to display a black ball when anchored.

 

[rslifkin]

A prolonged blast is from 4 to 6 seconds and a short blast is 1 second.

Yup. Most people give blasts that are far too short when intending to sound 1 long. I've gotten dirty looks from people unhappy with the volume of my horns when sounding 1 long (a good 4 seconds) coming out of the marina.

 

[mvweebles]

It is part of the Nav Rules. Unless you are in a designated anchorage you are supposed to display a black ball when anchored.

Comodave - are you sure that it's not required in a designated anchorage? I thought an anchor light (night) or ball (day) were required when the boat was anchored regardless of where.

Heres another esoteric (but valid) shape requirement: "a vessel proceeding under sail and also propelled by machinery power shall exhibit a conical shape, apex facing downward" (i.e. a Steaming Cone).

While an Anchor Ball dayshape is rare, the odds of finding a Mastodon are better than a sailboat under power with a Steaming Cone.

Peter

 

[rslifkin]

.....and a vessel proceeding under sail and also propelled by machinery power shall exhibit a conical shape, apex facing downward (i.e. a Steaming Cone).

While an Anchor Ball dayshape is rare, the odds of finding a Mastodon are better than a sailboat under power with a steaming cone.

Peter

It drives me crazy that so few people actually display that day shape, as it conveys important information that I otherwise wouldn't necessarily know.

 

[Comodave]

Comodave - are you sure that it's not required in a designated anchorage? I thought an anchor light (night) or ball (day) were required when the boat was anchored regardless of where.

Heres another esoteric (but valid) shape requirement: "a vessel proceeding under sail and also propelled by machinery power shall exhibit a conical shape, apex facing downward" (i.e. a Steaming Cone).

While an Anchor Ball dayshape is rare, the odds of finding a Mastodon are better than a sailboat under power with a Steaming Cone.

Peter

Part of Rule 30.

(g) A vessel of less than 20 meters in length, when at anchor in a special anchorage area designated by the Coast Guard ‡, shall not be required to exhibit the anchor lights and shapes required by this Rule.

 

[Hippocampus]

Tend to avoid special anchorages. There’s so many places to anchor out side those spots around here and avoid PWCs, loud rap music, folks learning anchor and other annoyances. Maybe why we’re more likely to use a ball. Do see cones of commercial craft but do lapse on our boats. Haven’t found one easy to store and our space is limited. On occasion have been buzzed by Good Samaritans asking if we’re in trouble until they see the snubbers and chain. Think the ball does cut that down.


My experience with AIS is different. Seems to be accurate to just a meter or three. Seems to correctly tell me time and distance of point of closest approach. Also tells me vessel’s details. In fact the AIS seems to be more accurate then the radar unless I increase rpm a bunch. I don’t use a splitter but rather dedicate a good antenna for just it. My current one is less then a year old and is spot on. Surprised by the lag. Maybe around places with more commercial traffic there’s more land based supporting antennas.
Wouldn’t go out at night without radar and AIS. Recently been boating mostly in the northeast. Wonder if your numbers on percentage having it are correct. At least in Naragansett bay and surrounding waters my impression (no supporting facts) is around 50/50.

 

[Comodave]

We have one that is 2 pieces of flat plastic with slots so they slide together. When stowed they are very small and easy to store.

 

[psneeld]

I believe AIS reporting period varies from AIS type to the other and the speed targets are moving....I found it near worthless in the fog through the winding, narrow sections of the AICW . 30 seconds for class Bs at 30 seconds was too long.

Many targets were past me before the AIS caught up.

RADAR was plenty sufficient and never confusing/lagging, but I am pretty good with it.

I have been using anchor balls and steaming cones on my sailboats since the late 80's.

I see a few on the ACIW, but not many.

 

[Gdavid]

Yup. Most people give blasts that are far too short when intending to sound 1 long. I've gotten dirty looks from people unhappy with the volume of my horns when sounding 1 long (a good 4 seconds) coming out of the marina.

I freely admit to breaking this rule, I sound a short blast prior to exiting my fairway. My marina is pretty large but dense, from the fly bridge I can see traffic ahead but smaller boats and sailboats with their helm near the stern struggle to anticipate traffic. A long blast would be appropriate but it would get really annoying a typical Saturday.

I somewhat recently fixed my electric horn and had been resorting to a handheld disposable horn, it was hard to avoid startling myself much less dock mates with that thing.

Operating astern propulsion is an interesting one because it doesn't always mean that you are reversing (could be just stopping) but can be vital information to a vessel astern of you that you are coming to a stop. There seems to be confusion around rule 17 which does not require the vessel being overtaken to maintain speed but frequently it is quoted that the stand on vessel is required to maintain course and speed. This really doesn't make any sense as you would be responsible for not traffic ahead but traffic astern. In really tight quarters, eye contact and hand gestures or VHF can yield less confusion in my opinion.

 

[psneeld]

The 3 shorts I believe "operating astern propulsion", not necessarily "backing yet".

Straight from NAVRULES book...* three short blasts to mean “I am operating astern propulsion”.*

 

[Hippocampus]

Have only done Norfolk to oriental since AIS been available. Didn’t depend upon AIS. Find the problem with radar is it doesn’t see around corners or over bumps like ships, small islands or land. Believe they’re complimentary and of course your eyes are the best for real time immediate information.

 

[psneeld]

I don't need it to see around corners.

I have always said on "major river systems" it is a different story. I would have one...but still wary of Class B transmitters as they aren't "good enough" in close quarters where seeing around corners and behind ships would be remotely necessary (I have never found the need) ... but I do see the value on river systems.

 

[markpierce]

https://www.godownsize.com/boats-horns-signals-explained/

 

[markpierce]

A prolonged blast is from 4 to 6 seconds and a short blast is 1 second.

That's correct. But here in small-boat world, a short is a tenth of a second, and a prolonged is a second.

Since my air tank is large, in the future I'll signal using much longer blasts.

https://www.godownsize.com/boats-horns-signals-explained/

 

[psneeld]

My philosophy for sound signals in small boats is pretty much don't use them if you are not going to do them correctly as doing them wrong might get you in more danger or trouble than not using one at all.

Fortunately warnings and agreements can be accomplished via radio rather than signals even though the rules only allow radio agreements for certain maneuvers.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

It drives me crazy that so few people actually display that day shape, as it conveys important information that I otherwise wouldn't necessarily know.

Well most of us don't even know what it means or ignored. Much like the Quarantine flag. Before COVID I rarely saw it. Maybe the rules are out dated. If you see ASD anchored in the PNW, during the daylight, good chance there will not be a black ball.

Correction in another post. On commercial fishing boats in Alaska what they were flying were ring, with a black net, not a ball. I was told it was required by AKFG if you were actively fishing.

 

[Comodave]

Why not display one? It is simple to do and the ball is cheap. It will help mitigate your liability if someone hits you while you are anchored.

 

[ranger58sb]

My experience with AIS is different. Seems to be accurate to just a meter or three.

I don't disagree about accuracy... just that the signal you receive (and the display it causes on your equipment) is where that boat WAS at the time of transmission.

In my "fast boat crossing" example, the boat's position was displayed ahead at about 15" to port for a long time... as I watched him cross our line... and then a few minutes later the display icon moved about 3/4 of a mile to our starboard. The display was correct for only a single short point in time.

I only more recently noticed the "radar vs. AIS" example, since we've only now got an MFD that will display radar, charts, and AIS signals all at the same time. (Prior, our radar was a standalone display.) Same thing, though. The AIS signal is accurate once, then time lag..... for a while.... the AIS signal moves away from the radar return... and then it's accurate again and catches up to the radar return. Repeat.

It's not reception (in-)accuracy; it's transmission-time-dependent (in-)accuracy.

-Chris

 

[Hippocampus]

Ok admit I have a skewed view of things that needs changing. Been a sailor so things move slowly. Have done mostly open water so benefits of AIS are more apparent. On last boat in open water range was ~12=16nm. That allowed enough time to get out of the way of a ship. Ships move fast so want to change course as early as possible to allow ~2nm point of closest approach. Try as I might crew tends to not do a full 360 every few minutes. Especially true for looking behind you. During the night they read on their device with their earplugs in listening to music. I want them to have only one plug in or better yet none. I want the full 360. Here the AIS is very helpful. They can vary course until I get the clearance I want. I can do the same with radar but many people can’t. The younger they are the harder it is to get them to take their eyes off the screen. So run AIS and radar. Even during the day. Haven’t got hit yet. Multiple times just knowing the names and details of the boats around me has been very helpful. Starting to accept the limitations of AIS coastally. Thanks.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

OK its mandatory but not enforced or published. This requirement isn't even in the Federal or Washington guidebooks.



When you review this Federal Document : A Boater's Guide to the Federal Requirements for Recreational Boats and Safety Tips AND/OR Adventures in Boating Washington Handbook, there is NO mention of the requirement in using an anchor ball as a day marker. NONE.

 

[jgwinks]

The 3 shorts I believe "operating astern propulsion", not necessarily "backing yet".

Straight from NAVRULES book...* three short blasts to mean “I am operating astern propulsion”.*

That's the way I read it too. It's in the section about passing signals and collision avoidance so more likely to mean "putting on the brakes" rather than actually moving backwards. A big ship with engines in reverse would still take a while to slow or stop with little visible indication. The signal would inform the other vessel of the intent slow to let them pass. The verbage doesn't specify though, I suppose you could back up to get out of the way and the signal would still be appropriate.
There's a car ferry here that backs out of it's slip across a marina entrance channel. They always sound one prolonged for leaving their berth then three short for astern propulsion. I'm not sure the three short is correct as they are not signaling any specific vessel.

 

[psneeld]

OK its mandatory but not enforced or published. This requirement isn't even in the Federal or Washington guidebooks.



When you review this Federal Document : A Boater's Guide to the Federal Requirements for Recreational Boats and Safety Tips AND/OR Adventures in Boating Washington Handbook, there is NO mention of the requirement in using an anchor ball as a day marker. NONE.

Neither are the vast majority of the US NAVRULEs which ARE part of the Code of Federal Regulations which apply to ALL US vessels.

From:

Code of Federal Regulations

§ 83.01 Application (Rule 1).
(a) These Rules apply to all vessels upon the inland waters of the United States, and to vessels of the United States on the Canadian waters of the Great Lakes to the extent that there is no conflict with Canadian law.

What pamphlet in the world covers all pertinent material?

It is published in several places... The NAVRULEs plus repeated in the CFRs.

Plus many, many places in boating safety courses and internet boating education sites....

https://www.boatsafe.com/dayshapes/...ond indicates your vessel is towing something.

 

[Comodave]

OK its mandatory but not enforced or published. This requirement isn't even in the Federal or Washington guidebooks.



When you review this Federal Document : A Boater's Guide to the Federal Requirements for Recreational Boats and Safety Tips AND/OR Adventures in Boating Washington Handbook, there is NO mention of the requirement in using an anchor ball as a day marker. NONE.

But it is in the Nav Rules and that is what matters. The other things you reference are not the law, they are synopses of the rules. You can come up with all the off the wall ideas but that still doesn’t relieve you from following the Nav Rules. And ignorance of the laws doesn’t usually hold up in court. Why not just buy a ball and be done with it. Then you will be one of the few that are in compliance with the law.