Bow Damage during delivery

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

Good conversation. I am still amazed that this requirement is not enforced or part of Federal or State training programs.

 

[psneeld]

Thus the good use of these forums...you read about stuff you have never heard of.... then go look it up. Everything from NAVRULES to solder/heat shrink connectors.

NEVER trust most of the stuff posted as way too much is incorrect or only part of the story.

Good posts usually give a link or direction for better and easy to find source(s).

 

[Comodave]

You do have a copy of the Nav Rules onboard your boat, right?

 

[Hippocampus]

Atlantic highlands right this minute. Obviously steel and probably over 60’

 

[Hippocampus]

Google it and chart one easy to keep aboard

 

[psneeld]

I have always interpreted Rule 30 (and related others) to place the ball "in a place where best seen".... while the bow is preferred, if the ball can't be seen from 360 degrees, not sure if it fulfills the rule......

RULE 30
Anchored Vessels and Vessels Aground
(a) A vessel at anchor shall exhibit where it can best be seen:
(i) in the fore part, an all-round white light or one ball; and
(ii) at or near the stern and at a lower level than the light prescribed in
subparagraph (i), an all-round white light.

 

[Hippocampus]

So is the ball in the picture above in violation? Can’t be seen from astern. Seems it wouldn’t be awkward on the front part of the flybridge

 

[Comodave]

I think that most people read it as in the bow and ignore the best seen part. I see them in the bow.

 

[Hippocampus]

On sail boats typical to attach it a quarter of the way down on a headsail sheet. That way in the forward third of the boat and high up enough to be seen 360. Sometimes we put it on a flag halyard and brought the halyard forward.

 

[psneeld]

I have always flown mine from the unused spreader and I have seen them in different places....not enough to say "usually the bow"...then again like many say...it's just rare to see them at all on smaller vessels.

Usually I have seen them on the bow of barges, but from large vessels they can be seen from astern of the barge.

My thought is if blocked by superstructure for some of the time, it is near worthless.... the fact that it is still in the forward part of the vessel signal where the anchor usually is then an all around visible location would solve both requirements (never thought before if anchored by the stern should the anchor ball be in the aft half of the boat?)

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

You do have a copy of the Nav Rules onboard your boat, right?

Yep

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

So in the book above:

Inland, lights and shapes, Rule 30, subsection 83.30:

(a) A vessel at anchor shall exhibit where it can best be seen:

(i) In the fore part, an all-around white light OR one ball.

So a ball is NOT required if you have an all-around light.

 

[rslifkin]

So in the book above:

Inland, lights and shapes, Rule 30, subsection 83.30:

(a) A vessel at anchor shall exhibit where it can best be seen:

(i) In the fore part, an all-around white light OR one ball.

So a ball is NOT required if you have an all-around light.

Not quite. That wording is correct, but it's clarified by rule 20 (which is the same for both Inland and International). Basically when the other rules list a shape and a light, you have to display the shape during the day, the light at night and in restricted visibility.



RULE 20
Application
(a) Rules in this Part shall be complied with in all weathers.
(b) The Rules concerning lights shall be complied with from sunset to
sunrise, and during such times no other lights shall be exhibited, except
such lights as cannot be mistaken for the lights specified in these Rules or
do not impair their visibility or distinctive character, or interfere with the
keeping of a proper look-out.
(c) The lights prescribed by these Rules shall, if carried, also be exhibited
from sunrise to sunset in restricted visibility and may be exhibited in all other
circumstances when it is deemed necessary.
(d) The Rules concerning shapes shall be complied with by day.
(e) The lights and shapes specified in these Rules shall comply with the
provisions of Annex I of these Rules.

 

[Eli27]

So in the book above:

Inland, lights and shapes, Rule 30, subsection 83.30:

(a) A vessel at anchor shall exhibit where it can best be seen:

(i) In the fore part, an all-around white light OR one ball.

So a ball is NOT required if you have an all-around light.

Yep,,, and i saw the light on the whole time! (lol)(i made a phunny)

Eli

 

[psneeld]

So in the book above:

Inland, lights and shapes, Rule 30, subsection 83.30:

(a) A vessel at anchor shall exhibit where it can best be seen:

(i) In the fore part, an all-around white light OR one ball.

So a ball is NOT required if you have an all-around light.

You are falling into the trap of reading "the book" without the experience to get the complexities of it.

There are lights for night/limited visibility and DAY Shapes for daytime, good visibility.

It is not either or, it's both depending on the environmental conditions as to which you display.

Don't feel bad, lots of non-pros often misinterpret the rules. Reading excerpts rather than the whole book can lead to not seeing the big picture.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

I have always interpreted Rule 30 (and related others) to place the ball "in a place where best seen".... while the bow is preferred, if the ball can't be seen from 360 degrees, not sure if it fulfills the rule......

RULE 30
Anchored Vessels and Vessels Aground
(a) A vessel at anchor shall exhibit where it can best be seen:
(i) in the fore part, an all-round white light or one ball; and
(ii) at or near the stern and at a lower level than the light prescribed in
subparagraph (i), an all-round white light.

When looking at your post, you state 83.30 (a)(i) in the fore part, an all-around white light or one ball AND;

The rule DOES NOT have the word "AND." Adding this word would make ss (a) (ii) mandatory with ss (i).

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

You are falling into the trap of reading "the book" without the experience to get the complexities of it.

There are lights for night/limited visibility and DAY Shapes for daytime, good visibility.

It is not either or, it's both depending on the environmental conditions as to which you display.

Don't feel bad, lots of non-pros often misinterpret the rules. Reading excerpts rather than the whole book can lead to not seeing the big picture.

I am not a professional mariner rather a recreational boater and an aviation maintaner expert with quite a bit of experience.

If you look at rule ss83.30 (i) state, in part, an all-around white light OR one ball;

Why would it state "or," instead of "and?" Environmental conditions like fog?

 

[Eli27]

I am not a professional mariner rather a recreational boater/aviation expert with quit a bit of experience

I saw the comment about being the pros and all. I didnt say anything but i have to now,,,,,, RETURN FIRE ( lol ) all in good phun guys

Eli

 

[psneeld]

I know it is a stretch for even many professional mariners to retain and understand a lot in this book of things they rarely see or use. I am not pointing fingers or looking down at anyone at all.

But as was posted earlier, the beginning of every section usually explains a few details that make the less obvious wording throughout the rest of the section a little more clear or point out exceptions, etc.....

So yes, browsing this book on a regular basis and being on the water A LOT and under the direction of really experienced guys to explain the "nuances" of the seemingly vague or contradictory rules is the only way to really understand them. Also what helps is reading hundreds maybe thousands of accident/incident reports where experts and legal rulings further explain the rules.

No most boaters are not expected to know the rules by heart, but unfortunately in life if something legal drags you into the fray..... you might still be accountable.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

Thank you for the lesson.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

I saw the comment about being the pros and all. I didnt say anything but i have to now,,,,,, RETURN FIRE ( lol ) all in good phun guys



Eli

Well you just have to have fun with learning. Never in 63 years have I ever heard of the black ball for day anchoring. Now I know. Am I getting one, probably not.

 

[slowgoesit]

YepView attachment 133001

Nope, that one is no good, it's written backwards!

 

[Delta Riverat]

After 6 pages I ordered up one of these. Twenty bucks and stores in the glove box.

If some drunken PWC dude rams into me and offs his self, I'll have one less attorney to worry about -

 

[Comodave]

After 6 pages I ordered up one of these. Twenty bucks and stores in the glove box.

If some drunken PWC dude rams into me and offs his self, I'll have one less attorney to worry about -

That is what I have.

 

[rslifkin]

That's what I use as well. I keep it tied to an extra boat hook to minimize setup time. Just carry it forward and set in place when anchoring, remove when departing.

 

[Comodave]

I am not a professional mariner rather a recreational boater and an aviation maintaner expert with quite a bit of experience.

If you look at rule ss83.30 (i) state, in part, an all-around white light OR one ball;

Why would it state "or," instead of "and?" Environmental conditions like fog?

Because it is the day shape during the day or the anchor light during the night. Time to let this go…

 

[Eli27]

Well you just have to have fun with learning. Never in 63 years have I ever heard of the black ball for day anchoring. Now I know. Am I getting one, probably not.

What really sucks is we are all talking about something that does have its importance to a degree. But the actual suck of it all was brought upon us by an idiot on a PWC cruising around like an idiot only to smash himself into an anchored boat and kills himself.

Seriously try to make me understand how the ball atop his mast would of prevented this.

I know when i get on a PWC im ALWAYS LOOKING UP TO CHECK BALL AND VERIFY WHOS ANCHORED!

Anyway, bottom line is this,,, if everybody had common sense the world would be dull and safe. I guess we need a bit of excitement now and again.

Eli

 

[Comodave]

Unfortunately the new class of boaters don’t know enough to know what they don’t know and it puts everyone at risk.

 

[Eli27]

Unfortunately the new class of boaters don’t know enough to know what they don’t know and it puts everyone at risk.

Absolutely! Not worried about the boater who knows he doesnt know (me). Im worried about the boater who doesnt know he doesnt know.

If he knew what he didnt know, he wouldnt not know it!

Eli

 

[BruceK]

What really sucks is we are all talking about something that does have its importance to a degree. But the actual suck of it all was brought upon us by an idiot on a PWC cruising around like an idiot only to smash himself into an anchored boat and kills himself.

Seriously try to make me understand how the ball atop his mast would of prevented this.

I know when i get on a PWC im ALWAYS LOOKING UP TO CHECK BALL AND VERIFY WHOS ANCHORED!

Anyway, bottom line is this,,, if everybody had common sense the world would be dull and safe. I guess we need a bit of excitement now and again.

Eli

There should be a causal connection between the non compliance and the event. Is there here? Doubt it.