Build Quality Matters

[FWT]

This example is sail, but the issues are the same regardless

I can't imagine the pain involved with receiving a new build and finding issues of this magnitude. Wow.

 

[firehoser75]

Wow, is all I can say. Definitely a brand (and factory) I would avoid!!!
You have to ask, how can such terrible workmanship leave the production line??? No inspections, no quality control, no pride in workmanship?? Finding similar issues in other boats from the same manufacturer leads one to think this "poor workmanship" could be very widespread in their products? Not a chance I would want to take.

Problems like this (when widespread in the product line) often lead to insolvency.
I feel for these people.

 

[chanprr]

If you desire a custom, well built and fine quality trawler, Helmsman stands at the top. When I decided to upgrade to the H46, I looked closely at several Nordhavens, which no doubt are terrific vessels. Our 38E was occasionally mistaken for a Nordhaven by passing cruisers! However, none of the 47-475 Norhavens we examined closely had the workmanship, fit and finish, or roominess feeling of our 38E. Seeing the newer 38E's on various posts this past year, it is evident that Helmsman continues to and is determined to produce a custom, excellent quality trawler. The prospect of having the first H46 was a bit daunting at first, but with the past experience of our 38E, the decision to go with Scott and the H46 was easy to make. Thus far, with many, many hours of discussion on design, Scott and Van have been a pleasure to work with. We look forward to a December 2023 commissioning in Lake Union, Seattle, WA.

 

[Simi 60]

Production boats
Would never have one in a multi.

Anyone who knows anything about multihull design and construction knows that building as light as possible is paramount for performance.
Coremat and chop strand glass is at the extreme opposite end of the performance/lightweight scale.

And the say epoxy in the commentary - it ain't epoxy

Should also point out that tapping around the hull with the tip of a finger would have picked up on those issues - there is a sound difference.
Visually would have seen it as well if big enough spot.

 

[Larry M]

Leopard makes ~190 boats per year. That is production! The charter industry depends on them and there’s a reason why. They are Tupperware boats.

 

[DDW]

Leopard is not exactly the high end of the catamaran market, more like bottom fishing. This is however a somewhat common problem with resin infusion - without a lot of attention, there can be dry areas (and flooded areas). Done in a female mold against gel coat, there is no way to visually inspect. Certainly that bad should have been caught on a survey (did they buy this new? should have had a survey anyway....). With hand layup, or infusion on a male mold (both increasingly rare) you would see these problems, at least on white glass. On carbon it will be hidden even then.

 

[FWT]

If you desire a custom, well built and fine quality trawler, Helmsman stands at the top. When I decided to upgrade to the H46, I looked closely at several Nordhavens, which no doubt are terrific vessels. Our 38E was occasionally mistaken for a Nordhaven by passing cruisers! However, none of the 47-475 Norhavens we examined closely had the workmanship, fit and finish, or roominess feeling of our 38E. Seeing the newer 38E's on various posts this past year, it is evident that Helmsman continues to and is determined to produce a custom, excellent quality trawler. The prospect of having the first H46 was a bit daunting at first, but with the past experience of our 38E, the decision to go with Scott and the H46 was easy to make. Thus far, with many, many hours of discussion on design, Scott and Van have been a pleasure to work with. We look forward to a December 2023 commissioning in Lake Union, Seattle, WA.

Totally concur with ALL points made.

 

[FWT]

Its not just the Leopard.

Check out the YouTube channel by The Wandering Hillbilly who got an Aquilla 54 power cat. LOTS of drive train issues in particular with his Volvo pod drive systems that culminated in a lot of expensive warranty replacement work. Look back to videos of about a year ago.

 

[FWT]

If you desire a custom, well built and fine quality trawler, Helmsman stands at the top. When I decided to upgrade to the H46, I looked closely at several Nordhavens, which no doubt are terrific vessels. Our 38E was occasionally mistaken for a Nordhaven by passing cruisers! However, none of the 47-475 Norhavens we examined closely had the workmanship, fit and finish, or roominess feeling of our 38E. Seeing the newer 38E's on various posts this past year, it is evident that Helmsman continues to and is determined to produce a custom, excellent quality trawler. The prospect of having the first H46 was a bit daunting at first, but with the past experience of our 38E, the decision to go with Scott and the H46 was easy to make. Thus far, with many, many hours of discussion on design, Scott and Van have been a pleasure to work with. We look forward to a December 2023 commissioning in Lake Union, Seattle, WA.

I was aboard a N41 at a boat show last year. I was expecting to see something special. I was underwhelmed. Apart from being cramped, the fit and finish was way lower than Helmsman. Not even close.

 

[Fletcher500]

There are some very good builders out there and Helmsman is among the top of the list as far as I am concerned. If we lost our boat, I would get back in line for another one and specifically the 43 which works really well for us as far as the layout. With that said, I disagree with the previous comments regarding Nordhavn's except for the N41 that has the lighter build materials and corresponding craftsmanship. That model is targeted at a specific buyer who wants the Euro styling. On all of the other Nordhavn's I have been on (40 to 64) I thought the build quality was very good as well as the fit and finish.

 

[FWT]

There are some very good builders out there and Helmsman is among the top of the list as far as I am concerned. If we lost our boat, I would get back in line for another one and specifically the 43 which works really well for us as far as the layout. With that said, I disagree with the previous comments regarding Nordhavn's except for the N41 that has the lighter build materials and corresponding craftsmanship. That model is targeted at a specific buyer who wants the Euro styling. On all of the other Nordhavn's I have been on (40 to 64) I thought the build quality was very good as well as the fit and finish.

I am no expert on Nordhavns. At all. I've been on a grand total of one. The 41 I saw at the boat show. So I can't slam the brand, and not trying to.

It wasn't the styling, and the layout while cramped is something you buy into or not based on preference and needs. It didn't fit my needs, but that's me.

The interior wood is said to be walnut on the website at the time. That's fine, because I find walnut to be attractive to my eye. But it was unlike any walnut I've seen before. The top finish was orange-peeled ... rough and bumpy, perhaps by intent or perhaps not. Either way, the combo of the odd walnut and rough finish made it come off as looking like an odd formica rather than "rich" looking.

Maybe that one boat was some sort of one-off spec request. I can't say.

 

[Simi 60]

If you desire a custom, well built and fine quality trawler.......

Define fine quality?

If it's just finish, perhaps you have heard the saying "putting lipstick on a pig"

I have seen plenty of boats over the decades that have had people ooh and ahh about how good they are but actual build, under the shiney stuff, has been lacking

 

[Comodave]

When I was first watching the video I thought maybe the boat was built on a Friday. But towards the end when they found 2 other examples of the problem in other boats I began thinking that maybe Leopard only builds boats on Fridays…

 

[Delta Riverat]

Gotta suck for the owners. Don't think they are gonna get reimbursed.

"Your choice of waters has dissolved the resin obviously"

As long as the charters have a running backlog...

Yeah, you really don't want to order one long term eh?

 

[Barking Sands]

That piece of masking tape several layers under the glass is just shameful. Pure laziness.

 

[chanprr]

Define fine quality?

If it's just finish, perhaps you have heard the saying "putting lipstick on a pig"

I have seen plenty of boats over the decades that have had people ooh and ahh about how good they are but actual build, under the shiney stuff, has been lacking

My Helmsman 38E quality definition = Excellent materials, superb craftsmanship, all jointwork square, cabinet work flawless, excellent finish, interior spotless, and clean below deck spaces. Helmsman invites the owner to be present at offloading and delivery. No mechanical issues on a month long shakedown.
The 38E was my 5th boat so I had a lot for comparison. She was the best overall. That's Helmsman quality.

 

[Simi 60]

My Helmsman 38E quality definition = Excellent materials, superb craftsmanship, all jointwork square, cabinet work flawless, excellent finish, interior spotless, and clean below deck spaces. Helmsman invites the owner to be present at offloading and delivery. No mechanical issues on a month long shakedown.
The 38E was my 5th boat so I had a lot for comparison. She was the best overall. That's Helmsman quality.

And I daresay the owners of the leopard thought the same, it's why they signed on for one
But it's not until they started cutting into it that they found issue.
The lipstick had done a great job at hiding the pig.

Now, I am not suggesting for a second that a helmsman is the same
But hiding stuff happens in many industries.

Go to any boat show and my hand can come out of places covered in dust and blood, if it's hidden behind panelling, it generally doesn't get finished that well.

I know people that own a Palm Beach 65 and I'm sure most would say they are a magnificent vessel and they are, not my cup of tea but they are nice for sure.
The owners went on for hours about the quality of build, joinery etc etc but, I did my apprenticeship in boatbuilding in the 80's doing superyachts so have a critical eye and while the joinery and general workmanship was neatly done it certainly wasn't to the standards done on the superyachts back in yard I worked in.
But even they weren't perfect, they had flaws if you knew where to look.
People are human and rarely perfect.

Houses are the same
I have been in show winning homes and that damned critical eye of mine is forever finding walls not straight, lines not true
But, people who don't have that eye or aren't in the industry would likely never see it.

 

[chanprr]

Simi 60: Thanks for your reply, and I agree that poor workmanship can be covered only to be discovered later on. No worries regarding your 'lipstick' comment. Keep posting!!

 

[N4061]

Discussion on Quality

Having owned three Nordhavn's and the first Helmsman 38E in addition to a few other boats of different types and styles I have a few thoughts on this subject which is very important to us. Before one can start comparing different builders and boats its important (IMO) the boats be correctly categorized or else we can end up talking about apples and oranges.

When I see people comparing Nordhavns (excluding N35) which are Category A (open ocean) designs built heavier including systems and hardware to lesser demanding categories the comparison needs to end there. Now if want to compare the N35 to H38E while still not a perfect comparison we are getting close. Both companies build quality boats but for different purposes and each have their market.

If I start with our personal Nordhavn experiences I can advise the quality of our two new builds in China was higher than earlier, US built boats. This observation includes both design and workmanship. Taking this Nordhavn observation one step further but a different design boat is that our N3522 showed better quality in some areas (fit and finish) to the larger Nordhavn's that I attribute to the boat being built in Taiwan with more experienced craftsman.

The N3522 is a different design classification then the rest of the Nordhavn fleet and closer to the Helmsman 38E. If I was to compare these two boats, I would say their fit and finish are comparable with the Helmsman providing a better engine room. The N35 is built a little heavier due to the company's heritage and was the reason for her initial slower speeds. I would give Nordhavn the edge on interior and woodworking but not by much. Hardware including windows would also go to Nordhavn. The Helmsman 38E being a larger boat with full width salon offers greater interior space and layout but the N35 offers a walk around master bed which is something my wife and I both prefer. Again, these are small details and both boats are in my opinion well-built or else we would not have purchased them. I would purchase boats from both builders again if we were in the market for their designs.

Another observation regarding quality of any boat can be made with our recent acquisition of a custom, all wood rowing tender. At only 11' long I have examined every square inch of this beauty and have to say see is a true work of art that no affordable 40-footer could match simply due to the cost it would take build. A real test for us is commissioning the build of our custom designed 17' Launch and driving hard for the same level of quality as the rowing tender but with more systems and hardware. While the launch will only be six feet longer and three feet wider, the costs will be significantly higher so again one needs to be careful discussing quality between boats. The builder knows we are demanding "yacht like finish" and willing to pay for it but still working with a budget. If we ever get to building a custom trawler in the 40' - 47' range (we are thinking about it), we could not afford the same level of quality and will need to make choices. So, as you can see it's all relative. Fun stuff to discuss.

John

John

 

[Bmarler]

And I daresay the owners of the leopard thought the same, it's why they signed on for one
But it's not until they started cutting into it that they found issue.
The lipstick had done a great job at hiding the pig.

Now, I am not suggesting for a second that a helmsman is the same
But hiding stuff happens in many industries.

Go to any boat show and my hand can come out of places covered in dust and blood, if it's hidden behind panelling, it generally doesn't get finished that well.

I know people that own a Palm Beach 65 and I'm sure most would say they are a magnificent vessel and they are, not my cup of tea but they are nice for sure.
The owners went on for hours about the quality of build, joinery etc etc but, I did my apprenticeship in boatbuilding in the 80's doing superyachts so have a critical eye and while the joinery and general workmanship was neatly done it certainly wasn't to the standards done on the superyachts back in yard I worked in.
But even they weren't perfect, they had flaws if you knew where to look.
People are human and rarely perfect.

Houses are the same
I have been in show winning homes and that damned critical eye of mine is forever finding walls not straight, lines not true
But, people who don't have that eye or aren't in the industry would likely never see it.

That critical eye is both a blessing and a curse. Just ask my kids. You can’t stop yourself from having your eye drawn to the flaws in everything.
This happens from decades of being someone that makes, builds, restores, etc…

 

[Nepidae]

Those who are in the rarified position of buying new boats from the factory. hire people like Steve D'Antonio to go to Asia where most are built to keep an eye on the build or in the least, when the boat hits US shores to go to the dealer who is prepping the boat to check for any and all issues.

From what I have read it isn't a unique situation to find more than a few issues on these builds.

 

[DavidU]

Such a valuable thread for me. My wife and I were considering the new 40 Leopard vs an Aquila 42. That just ended. Leopard is out and no need to charter to compare preference between the 2. I will not but a Leopard after seeing that lack of quality control in any factory. No confidence. I love the comparisons between Nordhavn and Helmsman. The more I see, the more Helmsman vaults to the top of the list for value and quality. Decisions getting easier and easier, which is why we are here. Thank you all