Buying a European Electrical Spec Boat

[Noodlyarm]

Hello All,

I’m looking a buying a 2009 Selene in Europe and shipping to Seattle. I’m still working or I’d just start our cruise in Europe - but that’s not the purpose of this post.

What challenges and costs should I anticipate with regards to the electrical systems, appliances, and other electronic devices?

Outside of the obvious power converter, I’m left with a boat whose internal systems are all designed around 220v 50 cycle.

Is there a cost effective way to deal with this? If I just convert the ac to 110v 60 cycle won’t the wire gauges be undersized, not to mention I’d have to replace every electrical component that can’t handle 110v 60 cycle power. Not an expense I’d like to incur...

Should I just pass on this boat?

Thanks for any insights and advice.

 

[Nomad Willy]

I doubt it (sorry) because half the voltage means twice the current and I think one would need to re-wire to accommodate the increased current.

 

[alfamike]

European electric powered baot moving it to USA

I don't know what they do different for European boat wiring size copaired to USA boats wiring size.

The big issue I see is the 220/ 240 volt system will have wiring that is too small for the 110 voltage in USA.

When you cut the voltage in half, the amps doubles for same amount of useable watts, so bigger wiring is needed for the lower voltage.

That would be VERY expensive to rewire the entire boat.

need to talk to the manufacturer to see of the wiring is same size for US & Europe bound boats.

rest is not cheap, but relatively easy. new appliances, bulbs, plugs, chargers, inverters, etc.

good luck, but do your research. Buyer beware !

Alfa Mike

 

[Noodlyarm]

Thanks. I figured the wire gauge would be too small. EU spec boats are typically 16 or 18 gauge while US spec is 12 or 14 gauge.

If I just leave the internals as 220v 50Hz and use a power converter for the shore connections that would be relatively straight forward. But then I have to continuously deal with appliances and devices that US dealers for which probably don’t stock parts...

Hmmmmm...

 

[ScottC]

Might be worth asking Selene directly, giving them the hull number. Could it be possible they use the same gauge wiring for all the boats they build, since they have a global market? Obviously you would still have to change the breakers, appliances, outlets, etc. (I’m not an electrician...so realize this could quite possibly be a stupid suggestion...)

 

[DavidM]

You can do two things:

Always use 50A 220V shore power and use it as is. And/or install a transformer to convert the incoming 30A 110 to 15A 220. The latter may not be enough power. I suspect you can come up with a scheme to deal with both, maybe a shore power adapter to go from 50A/220/110 to one leg of 50A 220 feeding the transformer. With only 30A 110V shore power you use and adapter.

Then you can change out any 50 hz motor that can't operate at 60 hz to a 220/60 hz motor. Probably only the A/C.

But unless this boat is the apple of your eye and cheap, I would pass.

David

 

[mvweebles]

I had a client years ago that got a smoking deal on a nice Dutch built motoryacht. Finding an electrician who would work on the system was impossible. Finding a 220v 50hz refrigerator or microwave or coffee maker in the US was impossible, though that was pre-amazon so maybe better now.

Devil is in the details. Generator and inverter are 220v. Rewiring is likely impractical, but you may be able to install a parallel wiring system for core items fairly cost effectively. A 120v outlet right next to the 220v one behind the fridge for example.

Maybe someone has a better idea, but my hunch is it will be a pox on your boat for the duration of ownership. And then there's resale......

Peter

 

[Portage_Bay]

I suggest contacting experienced owners and professional services.

Klee Wyck owns European boats and operates out ot the PNW. I'd pick his brain for solutions.

Among the electric shops in the Seattle area Elmore electric has experience supporting European electrical systems on boats.

I brought a Scottish built boat to Seattle for my employer just prior to retirement. The crew decided to leave as much as possible European. Especially ship's systems. Add North American circuits where needed.

Electronics will be easy. DC is DC. It's easy to find consumer grade electronics that are universal in that they plug into Europe or North American power.

Small European appliances can be found on Amazon.

It can all be done but will be costly. And there will be delays beyond normal when repairs and servicing are needed. Add in the cost to get the boat home. It may not seem such a good idea when you've taken it all into consideration.

 

[bayview]

Simple thing will be difficult. Plugging in anything will require thought though many items with wall warts these days will handle 220V 50 cycles

Resale will be a problem

 

[Noodlyarm]

Shoot, I think your collective advice is spot on. I was hoping there would be an easier/more palatable solution. I've got a call out to Selene to better understand their electrical and wiring standards.

Thank you!

 

[tiltrider1]

The cheap way to do things. The shore power is rewired to only a battery charger. The rest of the boat is only wired to an inverter. The challenge is finding an inverter big enough to handle the loads. The hot water heater can easily be replaced and rewired to work off of shore power. Washer/dryer can be replaced and rewired to work off of shore power. AC is a bit more expensive to work around. The rest of the boat should work off the inverter with no need to rewire or replace systems.

 

[klee wyck]

I suggest contacting experienced owners and professional services.

Klee Wyck owns European boats and operates out ot the PNW. I'd pick his brain for solutions.

Among the electric shops in the Seattle area Elmore electric has experience supporting European electrical systems on boats.

I brought a Scottish built boat to Seattle for my employer just prior to retirement. The crew decided to leave as much as possible European. Especially ship's systems. Add North American circuits where needed.

Electronics will be easy. DC is DC. It's easy to find consumer grade electronics that are universal in that they plug into Europe or North American power.

Small European appliances can be found on Amazon.

It can all be done but will be costly. And there will be delays beyond normal when repairs and servicing are needed. Add in the cost to get the boat home. It may not seem such a good idea when you've taken it all into consideration.

Yep, Klee Wyck runs Euro boats....
Everyone has a different tolerance for compromises. Here is mine:
I put in a Victron charger that can accept almost any power source around the world to charge a 24 volt bank with 740 AH (equivalent 0f 1480 AH at 12 volt) using 2 volt industrial cells. The boat runs off the inverter even when tied to the dock.
The main inverter takes in 24 volt and puts out 230v/50hz AC at 4500 watts continuous and can start 12000 watts max. Most of the boat is DC.
We have bought in the US, AC appliances that use 220/50 like coffee makers, toaster, vacuum, hair dryer, curling iron, griddle, space heater, etc using a couple of US sources delivered to our door. Easy. Plugs right into the Euro outlets. If the bigger stuff(freezer, frigs, washer/dryer etc gives me any trouble and I have a hard time sourcing anything, my backup plan was to add a second inverter putting out 120v/60 hz. Has not come to that. Not worried about it.
I did not rewire anything beyond the new charger and a clean up of the AC panel. Nothing cost much.
For me and the compromises I am comfortable with, this was no heartburn and not that much moola.
I don't worry about the electrical chasing buyers off, it is already a rare bird that likes the kind of boats that I like and I have no trouble accepting that.

 

[guy with a boat]

Whatever you save on the purchase you will give back, plus some when you sell.

 

[Noodlyarm]

Is it feasible to just use a power converter at the point where the shore power enters the boat and leave all internals at 220V 50Hz? Seems like a lot of appliances and devices are dual power compatible.

 

[Hippocampus]

Have used European when forced too. Changing voltage supply to the boat is trivial. Step down or up isn’t that hard. Changing frequency isn’t. Biggest deal is the motor in AC units. Ours ran fine on 50hz but told it does shorten service life. Fortunately it’s such a rare occurrence for us I don’t think it matters much. When not using HVAC we just use shore power to charge the batteries and take AC electrical supply from the invertor not shore power. Get 60hz out of the invertor so no issues. So just make sure the big electrical motors will accept 60 or 50hz. The rest you can work around. See if the invertors can be switched or at baseline accept either and can put out either. . Have your plugs all sorted out if you’re doing international travel. Not only for power towers but also hand held electronics such as laptops, phones and pads. All too often you’ll find yourself needing a charge and having a socket available but no compatible plug.

 

[Portage_Bay]

An easy to understand article on running 60Hz motors on 50Hz power and vice versa

http://www.50hz60hz.com/60hz-motor-running-on-50hz-power-supply.html

 

[woolf]

We have just prepared our 240/400VAC, 50Hz EU built boat for a number of seasons in the PNW– hopefully relocating soon, pending Covid situation.

We newly installed a Mastervolt power supply system, where all individual parameters can be monitored and regulated via MasterView displays, or via PC software, all on a CANBus.

Shore power coming in via 3 x 100A @ 24VDC chargers, that accept all EU and USA/CAN voltage and frequencies, charging 2 x 900Ah Firefly house battery banks. Plus 2 x 300A @ 24VDC alternators on the main engines for charging under way.

Power supply provided from the battery banks via 3 x 4KW = 12KW 3-phase 50Hz inverter power, plus 2 x single phase 50 Hz inverters for back-up of critical systems and navigation systems.

So far all runs very smoothly, only AirCo requires the generator. For longer periods in tropical waters (not on the schedule so far, and for colder climates we have a Kabola heating system) we might run a separate shore power connection directly to the AirCo compressors for marina use.

 

[Noodlyarm]

Where do you buy 50Hz appliances in the PNW? I went to my local store and they couldn’t even spell 50Hz... They had no idea and could not refer me to another store.

I poked around Amazon looking for similar and could find none.

How do you solve this problem?

 

[woolf]

To buy North American equipment for shipment to the EU, I go to the Amazon US or CAN web page and look for sellers offering delivery to Europe. Works all the time, with my usual login data.

Should work the other way around as well, I guess.

 

[Noodlyarm]

Thanks! I’d only looked at Amazon.com and didn’t see anything. Duh!

 

[Peter B]

Is it feasible to just use a power converter at the point where the shore power enters the boat and leave all internals at 220V 50Hz? Seems like a lot of appliances and devices are dual power compatible.

Didn't you read Klee Wyck's post #12..? Makes quite plain you can, if you then run all AC on board off the right type of inverter.

 

[RMY]

EU boat

Yep, Klee Wyck runs Euro boats....
Everyone has a different tolerance for compromises. Here is mine:
I put in a Victron charger that can accept almost any power source around the world to charge a 24 volt bank with 740 AH (equivalent 0f 1480 AH at 12 volt) using 2 volt industrial cells. The boat runs off the inverter even when tied to the dock.
The main inverter takes in 24 volt and puts out 230v/50hz AC at 4500 watts continuous and can start 12000 watts max. Most of the boat is DC.
We have bought in the US, AC appliances that use 220/50 like coffee makers, toaster, vacuum, hair dryer, curling iron, griddle, space heater, etc using a couple of US sources delivered to our door. Easy. Plugs right into the Euro outlets. If the bigger stuff(freezer, frigs, washer/dryer etc gives me any trouble and I have a hard time sourcing anything, my backup plan was to add a second inverter putting out 120v/60 hz. Has not come to that. Not worried about it.
I did not rewire anything beyond the new charger and a clean up of the AC panel. Nothing cost much.
For me and the compromises I am comfortable with, this was no heartburn and not that much moola.
I don't worry about the electrical chasing buyers off, it is already a rare bird that likes the kind of boats that I like and I have no trouble accepting that.

Need to pick your brain about an EU powered boat in US. Survey for purchase tomorrow. From the sound of your reply, buying an EU boat for use in US is NOT a deal breaker. Likely cost for electrical modifications you suggest. Please PM me.

 

[mvweebles]

Need to pick your brain about an EU powered boat in US. Survey for purchase tomorrow. From the sound of your reply, buying an EU boat for use in US is NOT a deal breaker. Likely cost for electrical modifications you suggest. Please PM me.

Tough call. As mentioned up thread, I ran a boat for an owner of a Storboro, a higher end Swedish (??) built motoryacht. Everything is possible, but it's harder and workarounds abound. Finding electricians to work on the boat was interesting. Europeans have a different approach to bonding and grounding a boat. Replacement circuit breakers were difficult to source. There were a lot of nuances that kept popping up that took time, skill, and money to resolve. Just depends on the cost/benefit. I struggle with standard electrical systems so a bad fit for me, but maybe not for others.

Might be easier in today's internet-ready world. But sure seemed like am annoying gift that kept on giving.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

Peter

 

[Choices]

Most household appliances can handle both frequencies, but not dual voltages. The issue can be the cooling fan. Look for a spec lable, 110-230, 50/60, you might just need to change the plug.

I doubt the wiring is different. But you may need to get a chart to compare sizing. Easy enough.

The ideas to put a vfd on the incoming is the way to go. Not that expensive, and some benefits.

Also adding a 120/60 circuit is a good idea for each room. This could be a small inverter, another benefit.

The buzzword for researching electrical is IEC or Euro spec. Euro spec equipment's electrical tolerances are tighter than US.

I would not have an issue with a Euro spec boat. Just have to nail down your spare parts suppliers. No big deal with the net.