Choosing electronics...

[RCook]

Think I'd have called foul on the manager that made that decision; a format conversion safety net likely wouldn't have been difficult or expensive... even something as simple as Garmin doing the conversion, and offering properly-formatted downloads (for the old unit) to the few users left hanging in the wind. (Admittedly just guessing here, without knowledge of the actual units...)

-Chris

Garmin's format change was to go from the proprietary "Bluechart Data Card" physical chart media to the widely used SD card format. In a new generation of chart plotters, two generations advanced from the 2001-2002 plotters like the 2010C, or my identical but smaller 2006C.

Most thought this a pretty good move. Garmin offered PC software and a USB-connected reader for the old cards, which allowed me to suck in my routes and waypoints, convert them to other formats, keep backup of them, and export onto an SD card or PC chartplotting software format. No conversion for the charts themselves, however - the new chartplotters came with the charts built in.

My 14-year-old 2006C still works perfectly, and I haven't needed to do anything to update it for several years now. My routes and waypoints moved smoothly over to CE for my new boat.

I would not call foul.

 

[Bruce B]

My chart plotter experience whether Garmin, Raymarine or Furuno is that the plotters are lazy and time consuming as compared to a laptop based charting program like CE or Trident or XYZ. Either Windows or Mac can be used in fact one of my friends has a Mac that has Windows 10 installed and can run Trident on either.

So my earlier question is can the Garmin AP follow the course laid out on the laptop using non Garmin software? That is a must for any hard wired charting system IMHO. CE is coming out with some new software that should greatly ease data inputs into a laptop based system. There may well be more fun stuff to consider than Furuno vs Garmin boxed products.

The newest plotters are pretty quick!
We don't tend to use saved routes or waypoints anyway.
We plot our course as we go.
Of course we've been sailors who are accustomed to slower speeds...
We will see!
Bruce

 

[dhays]

Bruce, I think that you will find that your new electronics package will wonderful. I also am sure that you will find design issues that will drive you crazy at first but that you will adapt to. This would hold true for any system.

Modern electronics are truly amazing and all of the top manufacturers put out great products.

 

[ranger58sb]

I believe that the issue has something to do with the way Furuno attaches the glass to the unit. Apparently the bonding agent fails and the unit has to be returned for either replacement or repair.

Your story of the screen cleaner made me laugh, been there and done that too!

Luckily, we haven't had any other problem with out Furuno displays... although now I'm looking around quickly for some kind of wood to knock on!

You sound like the other IT people I know!

Have to admit, most of my IT-related assignments were in self-defense. Intended users often weren't able to adequately flesh out use cases... and I was usually a power user in that area... so... tag, I became it. (Especially when they discovered I had the right post-graduate degree as credentials...)

Usually worked out, although one system I was called in to troubleshoot had been started (well before my entry) with something like a $25M estimate and only $5M actually allotted... and my own estimate was closer to $76M... and even then, only IF I could also incorporate two other existing systems that had already cost closer to $208M. My first recommendation was to simply scrap it all, assuming the customer wasn't really serious. After that lead balloon, they got more serious about funding the project... but never did step up to what it really needed. Some of the deliveries turned out pretty well, but still not near the original requirements. Ah, well...

-Chris

 

[ranger58sb]

No conversion for the charts themselves, however - the new chartplotters came with the charts built in.

My 14-year-old 2006C still works perfectly, and I haven't needed to do anything to update it for several years now.

I would not call foul.

Not sure I understand. You mean the old unit works, but the charts are still old/outdated and you can live with that? Or am I misinterpreting?

-Chris

 

[sunchaser]

Chris

Another question is what constitutes an updated chart. I clearly understand what RCook is saying and have no problem using older electronic charts myself where prudent. For my money, RCook is about the savviest PNW cruiser on TF. Listening to him is a treat for our cruising style.

In areas that are with heavy silting and dredging and buoys changing constantly updates are one thing. In areas where there is no silting and a hard bottom or rocks are the low spots, updates for natural obstacles are long in coming. Knowing visually where the buoys are and what they mean, observing channel markers, being on the right scale on your electronic charts, using paper where available and keeping a lookout seems the best defense.

 

[LarryM]

So my earlier question is can the Garmin AP follow the course laid out on the laptop using non Garmin software? That is a must for any hard wired charting system IMHO. CE is coming out with some new software that should greatly ease data inputs into a laptop based system. There may well be more fun stuff to consider than Furuno vs Garmin boxed products.

If your laptop-based charting programs, whatever they might be, can output industry standard NMEA 0183 APB sentences, or NMEA 2000 127237, 129283, 129284 PGN's, then yes. Obviously, the laptop must be connected to the same network and be recognized (seen) as a valid navigation source by the other connected devices.

On the Garmin AP control, you go to the configuration menu and select your non-Garmin laptop as the preferred source and you should be fine.

 

[Donsan]

Not sure I understand. You mean the old unit works, but the charts are still old/outdated and you can live with that? Or am I misinterpreting?

While charts on the East Coast can change almost daily, charts for the PNW and for the Great Lakes almost never change. That is why we were still happy with our Garmin GPSMAP 2010C on Lake Michigan even though the charts aren't being updated anymore.

 

[Bruce B]

While charts on the East Coast can change almost daily, charts for the PNW and for the Great Lakes almost never change. That is why we were still happy with our Garmin GPSMAP 2010C on Lake Michigan even though the charts aren't being updated anymore.

The rocks seem to always be in the same place, year to year...
Bruce

 

[dhays]

While charts on the East Coast can change almost daily, charts for the PNW and for the Great Lakes almost never change. That is why we were still happy with our Garmin GPSMAP 2010C on Lake Michigan even though the charts aren't being updated anymore.

Yup. I have an updated chart set for my Raymarine but likely won't update it for years. I do buy paper charts and for the areas that can change more frequently, I will buy updated paper charts if I am going to visit that area.

For the most part Puget Sound is pretty static.

 

[BandB]

Yup. I have an updated chart set for my Raymarine but likely won't update it for years. I do buy paper charts and for the areas that can change more frequently, I will buy updated paper charts if I am going to visit that area.

For the most part Puget Sound is pretty static.

We update daily.

 

[ranger58sb]

I clearly understand what RCook is saying and have no problem using older electronic charts myself where prudent.

In areas that are with heavy silting and dredging and buoys changing constantly updates are one thing. In areas where there is no silting and a hard bottom or rocks are the low spots, updates for natural obstacles are long in coming. Knowing visually where the buoys are and what they mean, observing channel markers, being on the right scale on your electronic charts, using paper where available and keeping a lookout seems the best defense.

While charts on the East Coast can change almost daily, charts for the PNW and for the Great Lakes almost never change. That is why we were still happy with our Garmin GPSMAP 2010C on Lake Michigan even though the charts aren't being updated anymore.

Fair enough, I get that you're all saying you can live with old charts.

I wouldn't want to do that, though, and not having the capability to update affects everyone -- worldwide, I guess -- who has/had that unit, not just folks who are OK with using old charts.

That's why I think Garmin failed with their replacement program for that particular model/unit. From the outside, at least, looks like it could have been a relatively easy/low cost fix... which could have at the same time negatively impacted potential sales of their newer replacement products. Pretty sure I wouldn't have made the same choice they did (again, just guessing, given no additional insight)...

-Chris

 

[BandB]

That's why I think Garmin failed with their replacement program for that particular model/unit. From the outside, at least, looks like it could have been a relatively easy/low cost fix... which could have at the same time negatively impacted potential sales of their newer replacement products. Pretty sure I wouldn't have made the same choice they did (again, just guessing, given no additional insight)...

-Chris

Obviously the hurt their reputation with some people. I don't have the information on a couple of key factors. One is what the cost would have been to have continued to support the old system, now over 15 years old. Two is how many owners of the old system did they have still subscribing to updates. My guess is that's a small number with many of those with the old systems not updating anyway. To those who were I likely would have offered a low cost process for them to update their equipment.

At some point, all companies have to decide when to stop supporting certain products. That's a difficult decision as often the entire underlying code has been rewritten and it's a complete set of required software since there is no compatibility with the new. I read about the laptop in the basement from last century. However, software developers and hardware manufacturers assume a certain life and don't plan on support after. Again, I don't have the specifics of the Garmin situation to say what I would have done in their situation.

 

[Jeffrey S]

In the case of the GPSMAP 2010C, there apparently was a corporate decision to change the data card format starting in 2006.

Well, not really. At the time, there were 3 independent companies producing nautical charts for recreational use - C-Map, Navionics, and Transas. Garmin had decided early to license the Transas data for their early chartplotters. Around 2006, Transas decided to get out of the recreational market leaving Garmin stranded.

Garmin decided to create their own chart development and hired teams of cartographers and digitizers. I've been to the floors in their HQ where they operate and it is an impressive operation. The bottom line is that they now own their own cartography and no one can take it away. They do license some charts, like Explorer in the Bahamas, but I'd bet they have pretty great licensing agreements that don't allow them to just go away. I know first-hand that it took many months of license agreement negotiations with Garmin for ActiveCaptain. They definitely understand all the issues and are at the very top in this game.

One thing about using a Mac for Garmin installations...

Perhaps is was already mentioned but there is a native Mac HomePort application from Garmin. The great things is...it's free. Once you have a chartplotter onboard, you'll be able to pull the charts off it and run them directly on the Mac. You can create routes, move them to a data card to insert into the chartplotter and more. HomePort has ActiveCaptain support too - I've been a tester of it for Windows and I've used it for real for many years on Mac's.

One thing you should also get is a cellular iPad and then get Garmin's app (BlueChart Mobile) - put it on iPhones too - you can put it and the charts on up to 5 different devices. It's the same charts as the chartplotter but works on an iPad. You can create routes on the iPad and move them over WiFi to the chartplotter. I did that a lot too - it's a pretty great product.

As an aside, Transas has popped their head up again in the recreational market. After dedicating themselves to commercial ECDIS charts since 2006, they are the company behind the iSailor app. It's a pretty nice app but I can't help wondering if they'll eventually pull support and escape back to the ECDIS world if competition gets tough or they just get tired of the recreational market again. They can't seem to get enough marketshare for the app to make them a top developer in the space.

 

[BandB]

We use Transas, but were not aware of the iSailor product until you mentioned it. Going to have to download the app and just see what it does on our next trip. We do use their TX-97 charts. Will be interesting to compare the iTX-97 charts to them.

 

[sunchaser]

Fair enough, I get that you're all saying you can live with old charts. -Chris

That may be a simplification. Normally we run 2 different plotters, sometimes 4 just because have them. Confusion on where we are or hazards are pretty rare. The online updates seem considerable for the East coast but small for the PNW. The time and effort to update became a chore with so little if anything changing. The biggest changes in the PNW seem marina information, easy enough to find out with Waggoners or a phone call.

Plus, I hate taking the virgin laptops (two of them) on line with all the stuff trying to break into it.

But, I do understand that with so many having careers in IT or using digital devices for a hobby that many enjoy the time spent fooling around with all manners of electronic boat toys. I do too.

 

[kev_rm]

Shills

Please stop posting if you sell electronics. You know who you are.

 

[Baker]

Please stop posting if you sell electronics. You know who you are.

I do not know who you are referring to, but many people on here are "Commercial Members" and are allowed to post in their area of expertise....and other areas too. If you have a problem with a particular post, please hit the "report button"(the little triangle with the exclamation point in it) and let the Moderators deal with it.

 

[BandB]

I do not know who you are referring to, but many people on here are "Commercial Members" and are allowed to post in their area of expertise....and other areas too. If you have a problem with a particular post, please hit the "report button"(the little triangle with the exclamation point in it) and let the Moderators deal with it.

I think I do know and I'm the first to jump on what I feel is self promotion or advertising and I saw nothing wrong with the post. It was factual and from a position of knowledge. If someone asks a question about any number of products with representatives here, I'd hope they'll step up and just answer the question. If they then do a sales pitch that bothers me, I hit the "report" button.

 

[Bruce B]

I went back and reread every post. I have no sense that any answer here was made to "sell" a product. There are a number of posts written by people with good knowledge of the subject matter though...
I'm finding this thread helpful and interesting and I appreciate the input (at least most of it!)
Many thanks,
Bruce

 

[ranger58sb]

Again, I don't have the specifics of the Garmin situation to say what I would have done in their situation.

Yep, as I said, I'm just guessing too.... educated, but speculation...

And I haven't intended to sound like bashing the company; decisions gotta be made, and yep, sometimes those decisions put some customers at a disadvantage... but life's gotta go on...

This particular example wouldn't stop me from considering Garmin equipment if we were refitting. OTOH, likelihood of long-term support would be a factor driving my final decision.

-Chris

 

[ranger58sb]

We update daily.

We use Transas, but were not aware of the iSailor product until you mentioned it. Going to have to download the app and just see what it does on our next trip. We do use their TX-97 charts. Will be interesting to compare the iTX-97 charts to them.

How do you do daily updates? You mean on Garmin units?

-Chris

 

[Jeffrey S]

We use Transas, but were not aware of the iSailor product until you mentioned it. Going to have to download the app and just see what it does on our next trip. We do use their TX-97 charts. Will be interesting to compare the iTX-97 charts to them.

It's a pretty nice app and they've been pretty good about keeping it updated and adding new features. It's developed in Russia if that matters.

Another second tier app that could easily break through to be a top one is the Nobeltec/MaxSea TimeZero app. I'm pretty sure it is the only tablet app that can view real radar (as opposed to just sharing the screen of a chartplotter). They added direct support for the Furuno DRS4W wireless/WiFi radar. So an iPad with the DRS4W would make a complete backup solution with very little installation headache.

As with all "free" iOS/Android apps, you can't look at the star ratings, especially when they have fewer than 100 reviews. All of the apps in this genre are free - you pay in-app to get charts and extra features. So the barrier for a competitor to write a negative review is very low. Or worse, a lot of people download the free app and find that you actually have to pay for charts (surprise!) and then give it a negative review because they felt everything should be free.

 

[Greatlaker221]

I am at the same place as you were Bruce B. I need a complete system and am now down to Garmin and Furuno. I waited for the Chicago Boat Show to see the equipment. Garmin was there and asked a local retailer to quote me a show special. Furuno was NOT there, in fact I could not find a Furuno demo unit of any kind on the floor. Very Disappointed. West Marine doesn't handle Furuno so no way to demo the TZT2 in the Midwest.

That aside, I really like the Furuno DRS4DNXT. The 100 target ARPA overpowers the 10 target manual MARPA of the Fantom 24. Otherwise similar and both Doppler. Garmin has side scan sonar Furuno does not, both have CHIRP. Both have good MFDs. Garmin has a smart pump AP which may edge out Furuno AP.

As far as charts. I like the sat/chart view Furuno has but the upgraded Vision Garmin charts seem feature rich. Both need chart upgrades and are expensive to do the loop/Bahamas and update expense is vague.

The side scan software is in the 7612 software If I want that I have to go Garmin. So with all of this said, my question is, if I go with Garmin except for Furuno NXT radar, will the Garmin 7612 handle the NXT or is the radar/ARPA software in the MFD?

 

[Bruce B]

I am at the same place as you were Bruce B. I need a complete system and am now down to Garmin and Furuno. I waited for the Chicago Boat Show to see the equipment. Garmin was there and asked a local retailer to quote me a show special. Furuno was NOT there, in fact I could not find a Furuno demo unit of any kind on the floor. Very Disappointed. West Marine doesn't handle Furuno so no way to demo the TZT2 in the Midwest.

That aside, I really like the Furuno DRS4DNXT. The 100 target ARPA overpowers the 10 target manual MARPA of the Fantom 24. Otherwise similar and both Doppler. Garmin has side scan sonar Furuno does not, both have CHIRP. Both have good MFDs. Garmin has a smart pump AP which may edge out Furuno AP.

As far as charts. I like the sat/chart view Furuno has but the upgraded Vision Garmin charts seem feature rich. Both need chart upgrades and are expensive to do the loop/Bahamas and update expense is vague.

The side scan software is in the 7612 software If I want that I have to go Garmin. So with all of this said, my question is, if I go with Garmin except for Furuno NXT radar, will the Garmin 7612 handle the NXT or is the radar/ARPA software in the MFD?

My best guess is that the radomes are brand specific.
Once Garmin had the Doppler radar in the 24" dome I figured that it was enough. The other feature that the Garmin AP has is the shadow drive. The pilot knows when you grab the helm and disengages. It re engages once you stop turning.
By the way, my installer does not use the smart pump. He uses the same pump supplied by Furuno. He says that they're the best...
Also look for information about the TZT screen delaminating. It is a bit of a problem and it's real.
By the way, the TZT is a much more powerful display than the TZT 2.
Furuno suggested that I wanted the TZT for our application.
I really thought that we would go with Furuno until the last moment.
Have fun shopping!
Bruce

 

[BandB]

Furuno is one of those odd companies that actually services customers better than they sell.

As to Furuno radar with Garmin, I have no idea whether you can or not, but I wouldn't recommend it when Garmin's radar is very good. Now, we do use Furuno radar with Transas with no problems.

 

[Gordon J]

I just installed to Garman 8212s that I bought last fall for $1230 each. I just learned that by using Garman blue charts on my iPad I can transfer routes in waypoint seamlessly via Wi-Fi to my chart plotter's. This means my wife and I can take her iPad to go bar or to dinner plan The next days journey and transfer it to the plotter when we arrive at the boat. I think this is a pretty cool app.

Likewise using Garmin Helm I can walk around the boat and look at either chart plotter. I am using a ray marine auto pilot and it works well with the Garman equipment.

I have had both Ray Marine and Garman systems, and frankly don't see much difference between the two. I can tell you, that getting a hold of Ray Marine customer service can be an exasperating experience. I have been on hold for half hour, or 45 minutes, just to be disconnected before actually talking to a person. Their message that they will call us back never seems to work with me. Garman, on the other hand has never made me wait more than two or three minutes before finding a knowledgeable customer service rep on the other end.

I am ofen amused when people tell me that this technician or the technician recommends a particular system. I never know what that is based upon. It is not unusual to have a technician install a system, and never see it again. Even if it breaks the owner may be likely to hire another technician to repair it. So technicians may be able to tell you about ease of install but I doubt they they have a significant data base on installs issues and how the issues were resolved. It is all colloquial information. It may be better than no information but it is frustrating that we don't have a good source of quantifiable data upon which to draw.

Gordon

 

[twistedtree]

So with all of this said, my question is, if I go with Garmin except for Furuno NXT radar, will the Garmin 7612 handle the NXT or is the radar/ARPA software in the MFD?

The answer is no, I'm afraid. With products like these, radar to MFD, and sonar to MFD are the two features that a locked to a single vendor.

But you could use a furuno MFD for radar and chart plotting, and a small Garmin for sonar. And don't discount the Furuno auto pilot. I've been real happy with the NavPilot 700.

 

[twistedtree]

I am ofen amused when people tell me that this technician or the technician recommends a particular system. I never know what that is based upon. It is not unusual to have a technician install a system, and never see it again. Even if it breaks the owner may be likely to hire another technician to repair it. So technicians may be able to tell you about ease of install but I doubt they they have a significant data base on installs issues and how the issues were resolved. It is all colloquial information. It may be better than no information but it is frustrating that we don't have a good source of quantifiable data upon which to draw.

Gordon

Couldn't agree more. What you are hearing is an assessment of the installation process, how well the company supports the installer/dealer, and how many follow up calls the installer gets from the customer. Easy sales and no hassle installs will rate highly.

 

[BandB]

The technician who only installs telling you what is best is one of many unreliable sources. It's like the mechanic who tells you he sees twice as many of Brand A engines come in with problems as he does of Brand B. Sounds nice until you realize Brand A sells four times as many engines. But it's also like other boaters and TF. Even those of us with the widest experience still can only speak about a minuscule percentage of any brand's installations. We come here for opinions and typically 20 or 30 people respond and it's great information but it's 20 or 30 out of dozens or tens of thousands.

I try to understand where they are coming from by asking "Why do you say that." One came back and said, "Because they take a lot longer to install." I just stared, then said, "why do I care about that?" To him that was a stupid question and it seemed obvious I should, but I didn't intend to keep installing it.