Cleats and chocks

[markpierce]

Carey wrote:


markpierce wrote:

I prefer braided nylon.

A captain friend told me long ago to make each specific line just long enough that it won't quite reach the prop. Next time I am hauled out, I will make a complete new set, and color code for each position.


Doesn't seem practical.* The quarter springs and stern lines will end up being very short, too short to be useful?

*

 

[Carey]

markpierce wrote:

*
Carey wrote:

*
markpierce wrote:

I prefer braided nylon.

A captain friend told me long ago to make each specific line just long enough that it won't quite reach the prop. Next time I am hauled out, I will make a complete new set, and color code for each position.

*
Doesn't seem practical.* The quarter springs and stern lines will end up being very short, too short to be useful?
Not so. They work just fine. You can always rig a storm spring in a big blow. It's about eighteen feet from my center cleat to my prop.

 

[Marin]

We use 5/8" braided nylon for our dock lines because they are easier to handle and are more flexible for looping and locking onto a handrail, which is what we do. But I have been told and have read in many places that three-strand nylon is actually better for mooring lines (as well as anchor rodes, of course). The three-strand is apparently stronger and has more stretch that braid.

We've had some nylon lines of various thicknesses made up for use in our anchor bridle and also for use on a mooring buoy. All of these are braided and have stainless thimble's in the loop end to accept a karabiner or shackle. We had a local marine shop splice the thimbles into the lines--- it's not expensive and it's not something I have any interest in learning to do. I have spliced a loop in three-strand but I don't have the patience to do it on a regular basis.

-- Edited by Marin on Saturday 15th of January 2011 02:12:05 PM

 

[JohnP]

Marin wrote:

We use 5/8" braided nylon for our dock lines because they are easier to handle and are more flexible for looping and locking onto a handrail, which is what we do. But I have been told and have read in many places that three-strand nylon is actually better for mooring lines (as well as anchor rodes, of course). The three-strand is apparently stronger and has more stretch that braid.

We've had some nylon lines of various thicknesses made up for use in our anchor bridle and also for use on a mooring buoy. All of these are braided and have stainless thimble's in the loop end to accept a karabiner or shackle. We had a local marine shop splice the thimbles into the lines--- it's not expensive and it's not something I have any interest in learning to do. I have spliced a loop in three-strand but I don't have the patience to do it on a regular basis.

-- Edited by Marin on Saturday 15th of January 2011 02:12:05 PM

********* Marin,** What is an anchor bridle?** JohnP

*

 

[ARoss]

My docklines may be less elegant than professionally spliced braided nylon, but I have never had a well-tied bowline loop pull loose from my cleats. I have read the analysis of how a knot is only x% as strong as a splice, but with the 5/8"* 3-strand rope I am using, I don't expect a failure that wouldn't have happened with a spliced line.* The upside is when I see a little chafe, I can cut/retie the line and eliminate the weak spot without needing to get a pro resplice it.**

Since I am fortunate to have full-length floating walkways on both sides of my* slip, I rountinely use 8 lines.. ..2* springs and bow/stern lines on each side, so I am (knock on wood)* not going anywhere in a blow.


-- Edited by ARoss on Saturday 15th of January 2011 02:51:44 PM

 

[Marin]

JohnP wrote:Marin,** What is an anchor bridle?** JohnP

Sorry, snubber bridle.

*

 

[JohnP]

Oh,* I should have known.* Thanks

 

[Nomad Willy]

Al Ross,Very YES. Use bowlines and vary the size of the loop. Dosn't look as good but works better mostly. One could even loop the whole line and use the bowline loop to synch the whole thing tight like a trucker over his load. One could use the next size smaller line and still be stronger and w more stretch. That would work well around bull rails where its somewhat difficult to make a line tight. Glad you brought it up Al.

 

[Marin]

ARoss wrote:

My docklines may be less elegant than professionally spliced braided nylon, but I have never had a well-tied bowline loop pull loose from my cleats.

I don't know much about knots.* I think I know three--- a bowline, a square knot, and a trucker's knot, which is the knot I use more than any other on the boat.* But I recall being told and perhaps even reading that while a bowline is a very useful knot, indeed, it can only truly be trusted when there's pressure on it.* If there isn't any pressure on it, they apparently can "wiggle" or work themselves apart if the line they're in is moving around.

Which would seem to make them a less-than-ideal knot for a dockline because there are times--- perhaps many times, when the knots are not having any pressure applied to them but the lines are moving.* What do you think?

*


-- Edited by Marin on Saturday 15th of January 2011 04:25:30 PM

 

[Nomad Willy]

Don't compute*



but




I think I've heard that too.

 

[xfedex]

Bowline is supposed to be easy to untie after being pulled very tight so the wiggle free idea could come from that.

 

[ARoss]

Marin and Fedex are probably right about bowlines, and being able to untie and re-do them when I see chafe, etc is one plus of the knot. Having one work loose on its own hasn't happened yet.
When we have a named storm or anything approaching 40 kts we double the springs as well. Fortunately I'm only 5 minutes from the boat, and we also have a full-time dockmaster who walks the docks twice a day. With a total of 8 lines (see above) and ongoing visual inspection, I'm happy.

 

[markpierce]

It's been decided: a cleat will be added between each stern and midship cleat on the Carquinez Coot.*

 

[Marin]

Mark---

The photo of your bow shows a large Sampson post which I'm assuming is well-secured and braced to the hull structure. But this appears to be the only thing you can attach lines too. Since you said they're going to install additional cleats farther aft you might also consider having them install a cleat on each side of the bow, perhaps on the bulwark fore or aft of the bow hawse hole. The advantage of these cleats is that they can provide attach points for your bow lines when docked without having to run them in the air from the hawse or chock to the Sampson post. This would maintain unobstructed access to the bow, windlass, anchor, etc. in the event you needed to work on any of them.

 

[markpierce]

Marin, I'll consider your advice once I've gotten practical experience handling the Coot.* (There are already two chocks on top of the bulwark near the bow.) *The builder charges $200*per*additional cleat with SS protection*for the bulwark's paint.* Thanks!

-- Edited by markpierce on Wednesday 19th of January 2011 08:43:14 PM

 

[Marin]

That looks like a pretty smart way to attach cleats to a steel or aluminum boat, assuming the attachment of the base plate to the hull is substantial.

 

[markpierce]

Note extra cleat to be installed on my Coot: between the saloon windows.

 

[Sailor of Fortune]

Mark
There is another issue rather than the amount of cleats aboard. Many boats tie the dock to the boat, instead of tying the boat to the dock! Pass the eye of the mooring line ashore and make
adjustments aboard your vessel! Do you really want a dock urchin "helping "you tie up your rig?
Most are well meaning but in experienced. If you pass the eye ashore, and he puts it on the cleat,you then are free to "come into that line" easily and IN COMPLETE CONTROL.
When an experienced mariner walks a dock, he can tell instantly, who "gets It". Eyes aboard the boat are a sure give away.
If you are single handing, this is even more important. Just make the spring up to the proper length, approach the dock and have the dock hand put it around the cleat- done. Now you are free to pass stern, bow etc, while your engine/spring hold you alongside.

 

[C lectric]

I would agree about handing the eye off to the dock guys but there are always flies in someone's ointment.

Where I boat we have bull rails mostly, very few or no cleats, so that won't work. I always retie after being helped.

At my current marina we have closed ring eye bolts that you can't get anything through unless it's the end of the line and it's fed through. No eyes or doubled lines.

I added cleats to suit myself but I still tie my boat to the dock so I don't have to rearrange everything when we come home.

Rules are great except when they aren't.

 

[Conrad]

C lectric wrote:

I would agree about handing the eye off to the dock guys but there are always flies in someone's ointment.

Where I boat we have bull rails mostly, very few or no cleats, so that won't work. I always retie after being helped.

At my current marina we have closed ring eye bolts that you can't get anything through unless it's the end of the line and it's fed through. No eyes or doubled lines.

I added cleats to suit myself but I still tie my boat to the dock so I don't have to rearrange everything when we come home.

Rules are great except when they aren't.

I was about to say exactly the same thing. Bull rails are a very efficient way to provide places to tie to - from the marina's perspective, but not necessarily from the boater's. In fact having eyes on docking lines in our area (southern coast of BC, don't know the north) is a bit of a waste of time I think. I consider dock cleats to be a nice luxury if you can find them.

*

 

[Sailor of Fortune]

Clark
That is no fly in the ointment. I believe you and Conrad missed the point. The crucial part of the equation is to control from the vessel. Whether there is an eye or not has little bearing on the evolution. If the dock has rings, you want the bitter end led through and back to the vessel for its crew to make fast (This is called 2 parting a line). A bull rail, the same way. What you don't want is to have someone else (on the dock) to decide and or make fast your bow or stern.
Bullrail, dock ring, piling or cleat it doesn't matter. You are trying to get a spring line to control and hold vsl. Twin screw, single screw , bow thruster is irrelevant.

When I used to teach boathandling, I made the owners/operators have their wives present. The women would usually outshine the men. They had no preconceived notions on how things should be done. They learned quickly because they visualize what was presented and why it worked.

 

[Conrad]

Sailor of Fortune wrote:

Clark
That is no fly in the ointment. I believe you and Conrad missed the point. The crucial part of the equation is to control from the vessel. Whether there is an eye or not has little bearing on the evolution. If the dock has rings, you want the bitter end led through and back to the vessel for its crew to make fast (This is called 2 parting a line). A bull rail, the same way. What you don't want is to have someone else (on the dock) to decide and or make fast your bow or stern.
Bullrail, dock ring, piling or cleat it doesn't matter. You are trying to get a spring line to control and hold vsl. Twin screw, single screw , bow thruster is irrelevant.

When I used to teach boathandling, I made the owners/operators have their wives present. The women would usually outshine the men. They had no preconceived notions on how things should be done. They learned quickly because they visualize what was presented and why it worked.

Hi Jack...my comments were not intended to debate your valid argument but rather to express general frustration at having to use bullrails vs cleats.*The previous owner of our boat was adamant that when docking, lines were never to be handed to anyone on the dock; rather, someone on the boat would have them in hand as they disembarked to handle the docking chores.

*

 

[Nomad Willy]

We have bull rails and they're not perfect either but almost always offer more possibilities. I don't like spliced eyes but they work quite well when used as Jack says and while cruising and while one is'nt using a chock. Most chocks are poorly designed and present a rather sharp edge to the line. They work well cruising because one ties and/or makes a line fast in different places all the time so the wear on the line is dispersed. We talked about bull rails before and some wern't familiar w them so I offer these pics. The 1st is in Thorne Bay and the 2nd is in Craig ...where we are going in the morning for our weekly trip to town.

Mark,
I'd add another cleat about where the aft window is on the fore-cabin.
PS Mark, Do you have fender cleats?


-- Edited by nomadwilly on Wednesday 9th of March 2011 07:13:18 PM

 

[C lectric]

Jack,

I maybe did miss your point a bit. I do understand the point of not losing control of the lines and having neophytes create difficulties when handing off lines. I should have read your point more carefully.

 

[FF]

I guess it could be done , but I have yet to see a yacht with cleats that are too large.

ON a new build I would look at 16 inch (as a minimum ) for ( 16/16) 1 inch line or a bunch of smaller lines.

An 8 inch cleat is only for one 8/16 line , way too small for most docking tie ups.

 

[markpierce]

FF wrote:

I guess it could be done , but I have yet to see a yacht with cleats that are too large.

ON a new build I would look at 16 inch (as a minimum ) for ( 16/16) 1 inch line or a bunch of smaller lines.

An 8 inch cleat is only for one 8/16 line , way too small for most docking tie ups.

One line per cleat, please.* A "bunch of smaller lines" equals Gordian knot to me.* (Where's my sword?)

*

 

[Tidahapah]

Jack,
You are spot on.
First the spring and then it is all a cake walk from there.........normally.
Don't let any one on the dock side talk you into any thing else. Stick to your plan.
Please put the spring line loop around that cleat, make fast on board, hard over and a little power and the stern is snug alongside, ready for the Boss
to step off and take other lines.

I don't have any cleats on my boat just sampson posts, fwd post, one each at the wheel house doors P & S and one each P & S aft.
Sampson posts will take more tan one line with out being a mess.

Benn

 

[Nomad Willy]

Benn wrote:"Sampson posts will take more tan one line with out being a mess."
Yes. Especially if the lines have spliced eyes or bowline loops.
On most I think the pins are too short.

 

[Tidahapah]

Eric,
Here is a couple of photos of mine, bow and midship.
Funny when you look for specific photos , one can't find them.

Benn

 

[Nomad Willy]

Willy,A warm welcome to you. I was one of the 1st several boats to moore at Captian's Cove Marina in about 1972. Loved to run the river * * *..even to Pitt Lake. My boat's name is Willy and I'm well known here so sooner or later someone's going to think you're me or whatever. We had another guy I miss quite a lot named Willy and his user name was Old Fish Boat. He had a boat not unlike your own. Anyway we kick a lot of stuff around here and seldom does anybody change the way they do things but we learn. Actually I've changed opinions and ways on several issues but still remain firm and opinionated on many. Looks like you have one of those old gill net boats they built so many of down in Steveston. Very good boats.
Benn,
I see. You have very tall and probably stout posts. Like.


-- Edited by nomadwilly on Thursday 10th of March 2011 09:31:58 PM