Collision and demasting

[O C Diver]

My wife is feeling extra terrible because she was on watch. But today she said something she hadn't before while talking about it. She said "I was looking forward and in that direction and it was just darkness, then suddenly there was that boat all lit up".

You can decide how you want to take this.

I will offer this: when a vessel is coming on a reciprocal course and close to you, the deck lights maybe obscured by the bow, and the running lights may be above where you're looking. I've had this same thing happen to me. In my case, I knew the vessel was coming up the channel towards me. I was looking parallel to the water when the running lights were over 50' above the water.

Your wife may have only seen the deck lights when they weren't obscured by the bow of the fishing vessel, or if the boat was turning, maybe to avoid you.

Ted

 

[DavidU]

Don L, first let me say thank goodness you and your wife are ok. Second, thank you for posting. I'm brand new to this game and utilize TF as a place to learn. Your post initiated a conversation which educates a newbie like myself. I'm sure there are many like me, and many, with much more experience, who will read your post and experiences, and the exchanges that ensue, and change their habits, attentiveness or thought processes to make better decisions. Feeling persecuted is not fair, but sharing your story, most likely saves lives or at least helps prevent future incidents. I think that's why you initially posted and I thank you.

 

[mvweebles]

Don L, first let me say thank goodness you and your wife are ok. Second, thank you for posting. I'm brand new to this game and utilize TF as a place to learn. Your post initiated a conversation which educates a newbie like myself. I'm sure there are many like me, and many, with much more experience, who will read your post and experiences, and the exchanges that ensue, and change their habits, attentiveness or thought processes to make better decisions. Feeling persecuted is not fair, but sharing your story, most likely saves lives or at least helps prevent future incidents. I think that's why you initially posted and I thank you.

Well said, and I agree. Again, my learnings: I would buy a better radar. The mile-range marketing stuff is fluff - sure, curvature of earth is one limiting factor, but a high-power radar has much better definition within a 5-10 mile zone.

Peter

 

[Portage_Bay]

Excellent point. Sometimes it's what you don't see that alerts you to the presense of a larger vessel. An extra dark area, no lights on shore, no moon or starlight reflections on the water. Looking through the dodger would make this harder to interpert. Not cutting the FV any slack here.

I will offer this: when a vessel is coming on a reciprocal course and close to you, the deck lights maybe obscured by the bow, and the running lights may be above where you're looking. I've had this same thing happen to me. In my case, I knew the vessel was coming up the channel towards me. I was looking parallel to the water when the running lights were over 50' above the water.

Your wife may have only seen the deck lights when they weren't obscured by the bow of the fishing vessel, or if the boat was turning, maybe to avoid you.

Ted

 

[rslifkin]

Don L, first let me say thank goodness you and your wife are ok. Second, thank you for posting. I'm brand new to this game and utilize TF as a place to learn. Your post initiated a conversation which educates a newbie like myself. I'm sure there are many like me, and many, with much more experience, who will read your post and experiences, and the exchanges that ensue, and change their habits, attentiveness or thought processes to make better decisions. Feeling persecuted is not fair, but sharing your story, most likely saves lives or at least helps prevent future incidents. I think that's why you initially posted and I thank you.

Agreed. Seeing stories like this and thinking through what could possibly prevent it hopefully avoids future stories like this.

 

[Hippocampus]

CG the morning after the collision told us on the phone they were going to go inspect the fishing boat. That would have been over 12 hours after the event. The CG did not meet us at our boat till 60+ hours after.

The fishing boats report says the master was at the helm, that the CG requested a drug test, and the the Master had taken one.

You know what this means? Not a freaking thing.

These freaking guys LEFT us out in the water disabled not knowing if we were going to be OK. They didn't tell the CG they were leaving. You think I believe any damn thing they say?

Most disturbing post in this thread

 

[psneeld]

Post #179 bears to be reread if anyone skipped or brushed by it. I consider the post realistic, but still no facts....

Couple with the fact that the fishing boat may have not suffered any damage and did not necessarily transmit everything clearly to the USCG right away.

If the S/V did not chose to file their own statement and somehow talked the Coast Guard into not coming till they repositioned to Jacksonville, as a USCG officer who had to make similar calls many times, the lack of urgency on either party may have cooled the situation to where the Marine Casualty Inspection team also saw no need for urgency....assuming the F/V complied with the required crew testing.

 

[Gulf Comanche]

I want people to read it and learn whatever lessons they can. But don't want to feel I am under any attack by people who were not there. The only "guessing" on my part I included in my original posts was whether the fishing boat was in fact fishing and whether they had their lights on earlier than moments before the collision. Far as "fault" neither those really matter because both boats were responsible to avoid a collision.

BTW - in a post a few ago someone wrote "if they feel they have the right of way". I wish people would STOP using this "right of way" term as it does not exist and there is no such thing on the water.

Thanks for putting this on here, I appreciate it. I've learned a few things regarding "right of way" and how boats are measured for ability to stay upright.
Mike

 

[Mark Laurnen]

What a shocking, and scary tail. I am really disappointed that the fishing boat did not stand by. That behavior seems unconscionable in this circumstance, almost incriminating.

 

[psneeld]

What a shocking, and scary tail. I am really disappointed that the fishing boat did not stand by. That behavior seems unconscionable in this circumstance, almost incriminating.

As posted in post #179, could have been a misunderstanding causing them to leave.

Not uncommon in emergency situations.

But certainly their actions are up for question till more facts roll in.

 

[BluewaterN47]

Thanks for your comprehensive report, Don. What a chilling encounter--a nightmare! Sounds like you and your wife dealt with it calmly and extremely well. Lots of lessons can be drawn from your experience.



Just one question: I take it you were not operating radar at the time, correct? Curious whether you carried radar and just weren't using it or do you not have radar?


AIS and other electronics notwithstanding, operating radar offshore at night (or in limited visibility) and watching it regularly makes me feel much safer. Monday morning quarterbacking, using radar might well have helped you avoid that collision.


Thanks again,


Milt Baker, American Tug 34 Bluewater V

 

[psneeld]

Thanks for your comprehensive report, Don. What a chilling encounter--a nightmare! Sounds like you and your wife dealt with it calmly and extremely well. Lots of lessons can be drawn from your experience.



Just one question: I take it you were not operating radar at the time, correct? Curious whether you carried radar and just weren't using it or do you not have radar?


AIS and other electronics notwithstanding, operating radar offshore at night (or in limited visibility) and watching it regularly makes me feel much safer. Monday morning quarterbacking, using radar might well have helped you avoid that collision.


Thanks again,


Milt Baker, American Tug 34 Bluewater V

Form the OP's post #111

"My radar stopped working a few years ago. But even back when it did work I didn't run it much on a clear night as it was power hog.

The fishing boat said he had his radar on, but it didn't pick us up. We have a LOT of metal on our boat and our 22 year radar before if died could pick out a sea buoy mile away.

We were healed and at 5 degrees at the most."

 

[Don L]

As posted in post #179, could have been a misunderstanding causing them to leave.

Not uncommon in emergency situations.

But certainly their actions are up for question till more facts roll in.

By that time our hand held VHF was working and we had been talking with CG on/off.

I would think the fishing boat heard this as it was on 16. If they didn't understand they could have called. They never answered when I called them!

They just left, didn't even tell the CG according to the CG.

 

[psneeld]

By that time our hand held VHF was working and we had been talking with CG on/off.

I would think the fishing boat heard this as it was on 16. If they didn't understand they could have called. They never answered when I called them!

They just left, didn't even tell the CG according to the CG.

Did you specifically ask them to stay? I saw you tried with no answer...hard to say why...but not looking good for them.

If not, then the waveoff for their safety from tangling your rigging (good call on your part) could be misinterpreted depending on exactly what you said.

As you said, lots going on...probably on both boats.

 

[rgano]

Lesson learned:

I will remember this tale and if am ever in a similar uncertain condition will make a declarative VHF radio statement to the other vessel and the USCG, "I am uncertain of my ability to continue and want the (vessel name) to standby me until I release him."

 

[psneeld]

Lesson learned:

I will remember this tale and if am ever in a similar uncertain condition will make a declarative VHF radio statement to the other vessel and the USCG, "I am uncertain of my ability to continue and want the (vessel name) to standby me until I release him."

It is my experience the USCG usually asks vessels to stand by until the USCG is certain that sufficient help is on the way and in time...or they will release when all concerned think they are no longer needed.

Understand, I did say "usually" and in my experience. So a affirming radio call would be a good idea.

You have probably experienced the more players at sea involved in an operation how quickly it becomes necessary to double check everything and run it through the common sense filter. Especially during mishaps.

 

[Don L]

did you specifically ask them to stay?

i specifically had more important things going on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Bill Wells]

At least you folks were not injured!

 

[psneeld]

i specifically had more important things going on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You make my point and the exclamation points are wasted on me who was present for hundreds of situations like and far worse than yours plus supervised from an operations center for many more.

 

[Don L]

I have a lot going on and lots of stress,. Time to accept some PM advise and make a change to my reading of posts to reduce it.

 

[psneeld]

I have a lot going on and lots of stress,. Time to accept some PM advise and make a change to my reading of posts to reduce it.

I wouldn't get too stressed. The fishing boat probably is in no better position than you, unless someone can prove a lot more than what you have described. If others have been PMing you advise, unless they have way more info than what's posted here, I have no idea what they could be advising you on past getting a great maritime lawyer that could cost as much as replacing your boat.

Sorry about the loss of your boat and that is huge in itself...unfortunately I have no advice there as much of that would be personal.

 

[BruceK]

Did you specifically ask them to stay? I saw you tried with no answer...hard to say why...but not looking good for them.

If not, then the waveoff for their safety from tangling your rigging (good call on your part) could be misinterpreted depending on exactly what you said.

As you said, lots going on...probably on both boats.

The fishing boat may be susceptible to criticism, but before judging it on the issue of standing by, it would help to know exactly what the OP said to them about moving away when they attempted to came close ? alongside while there was debris in the water.

 

[Bill Wells]

My advice would be to be cautious about posting things on social media about the incident until it is settled. The best advice my father ever gave me was "never put anything in writing you don't want read in court" I have tried to live my life with that as my slogan......

 

[psneeld]

The fishing boat may be susceptible to criticism, but before judging it on the issue of standing by, it would help to know exactly what the OP said to them about moving away when they attempted to came close ? alongside while there was debris in the water.

I agree, I hope I successfully inferred that 2X so far.

Tried to emphasize your first post about it.

 

[Osprey69]

My advice would be to be cautious about posting things on social media about the incident until it is settled. The best advice my father ever gave me was "never put anything in writing you don't want read in court" I have tried to live my life with that as my slogan......

Ding Ding...and as a corollary, imagine any action of yours being cross-examined by a plaintiff's attorney. " let me understand this...you did...?"

 

[PNK]

Collision and demoting

Don,

I have sailed those same waters in a 42' sailboat, but since I wasn't there I can't really say anything about the accident, except that I am in awe that you and your wife kept your heads and were so 'cool under fire'. I would like to think that I would have reacted as well as you did, but I can't say, and to make the boat safe in such a relatively short time, in the middle of the night offshore, and get safely to port, is something you should be proud of.
This kind of accident is something everyone who sails offshore thinks about, but most of us, fortunately, never have to experience.
Hopefully your insurance company will treat you right, and you will be able to properly restore your boat.
Good luck, and we are all glad both of you are safe.

Peter

 

[Don L]

Ding Ding...and as a corollary, imagine any action of yours being cross-examined by a plaintiff's attorney. " let me understand this...you did...?"

Some of you watch too many TV shows. I have provided the same statement to the CG and insurance company I have provided here. The FV claims no damage and by an incredible miracle my wife and I were not seriously hurt (been over 2 weeks and my tailbone still hurts) or killed! There isn't going to be any "action" over my $60k AGREED VALUE claim.

Don't be thinking I am so stupid to have started this thread before the initial investigation and the he said/he said stage of the event.

 

[SteveK]

..........................

Don't be thinking I am so stupid to have started this thread before the initial investigation and the he sail/he said stage of the event.

Yabut, you have posted information here as if it just became apparent, after the fact, so new to the investigation, that could be used against you.

 

[Osprey69]

Some of you watch too many TV shows. I have provided the same statement to the CG and insurance company I have provided here. The FV claims no damage and by an incredible miracle my wife and I were not seriously hurt (been over 2 weeks and my tailbone still hurts) or killed! There isn't going to be any "action" over my $60k AGREED VALUE claim.

Don't be thinking I am so stupid to have started this thread before the initial investigation and the he sail/he said stage of the event.

Don...that was a generic statement not directed at you. I should have been clearer. Stepping away from this string.

 

[Don L]

Yabut, you have posted information here as if it just became apparent, after the fact, so new to the investigation, that could be used against you.

Please tell me what information I have posted here that wasn't in post #1.

Far as I know the only new thing from post #1 was that my wife the other day say she "saw darkness" right before seeing a fully lit FV. I don't feel she understood (which is not unreasonable really) that darkness was probably an unlit boat that sudden saw us and turned on its' lights.

She was looking directly at where that FV came from as we were talking about the moon should have come up and she was telling me she didn't see it. I am pretty sure I now understand why.

I of course can not prove anything as it would require I had video of the whole thing, but the only thing to us no matter how many times we run it through on minds is that the FV was dark til the last moment.

Yet I have not said we were blameless even though we didn't stand a chance.