Collision and demasting

[Don L]

I am confused. If your boat is uninsured, why is there any discussion on agreed value vs real worth?

I met under insured

 

[O C Diver]

on their report they say it is a shrimper

I don't have a great working knowledge of shrimpers other than you would have likely gotten tangled in their rigging under the outrigger if they were actively shrimping.

As a point of reference, a vessel doesn't loose their " engaged in fishing " status when they pull their trawls or dredges up to dump the catch on the deck. That being said, I'm still surprised you weren't hung in at least the cable for the outrigger fish.

Ted

 

[psneeld]

You tube underwater video of a shrimp net in action.... starts around minute 1:30.

 

[Cargile]

I wish I had never posted this thread here.

It's the internet. The roomper room of life. These posts always garner a tremendous number of responses as you see. Too many from arm chair Admirals spouting what they believe to be sage opinions. I read the first, maybe 2 pages then when to breakfast.

 

[Mac G]

Okay. But the day you think you know everything is the day you stop learning.
I enjoy reading all sorts of different opinions and perspectives and boil that all down and mix it around with my own knowledge and what I think I know, but sometimes I am wrong and will welcome being corrected.
Have never been afraid to admit I do not know something or can learn more.
Have never been afraid to raise my hand in class and ask a stupid question only to be met with others afterward who had the same question but were too embarrased to ask.
I try to learn every day and become a different person every year.
As a former sailor for 50+ years I am starting over now as a powerboater.
So I am a white-belt again; well, maybe yellow-belt because I know how to tie up dock lines.

 

[Hippocampus]

Okay. I expect you will all excoriate me and run me through the coals now as you all seem firm proponents of radar, and am not saying you should not have one; However, any electronic device should only be used as an assistance, an additional tool to have. After all, what if a lightning strike or some big battery problem knocks out all your electronics? What then?

Back in the 1960's when I was a newbie learning from the old salts of the day, very few pleasure vessels power or sail were equiped with radar. No one had gps. No one had a chart-plotter. We learned to stand watch by "standing" and getting up out of the cockpit and viewing the horizon from the mast where your eye is higher above the horizon. You cannot see well from behind a dodger down in the cockpit, especially if there are seas, or if your eyes are being blinded by lights left on down below. If you don't like getting wet or feeling cold then buy better gear to wear or take up a different sport.

And your night vision will be blinded and compromised from staring at a screen. Expecting to be able to see anything in the darkness after looking at anything lighted is foolish. Back then, the only thing in the cockpit with a light was the binnacle, and that was only very dimly lit. Now days I see folks with big colorful brightly-lit chartplotters mounted to their binnacles!
I always kept electronics down below where they are dry and unable to blind the night watch. Always held a paper chart on deck too and nowdays many folks do not even carry paper charts for their itinerary.

Am an old-school proponet of dark decks when standing watch. And a firm believer in getting up and looking around frequently. Have sailed many miles for many years in all conditions with no radar. Am not saying don't get one, but am suggesting it should not be relied on to the sacrifice of basic watch-standing prinicples.

On the sailboat radar was on gimbals. Had had no effect.

In the past when radar took awhile to “heat up” and used a lot of juice would turn it off mid ocean except when conditions suggested it was useful. For quite some years that’s no longer true and it just stays on 24/7. That was also true when n the sailboat.

On multiple occasions radar has been confusing. Go through a host of trawlers or heavy traffic. Some shadowed by others. Some appearing and disappearing. Or in big swells/breaking waves where even decent size boats appear and disappear Or seasmoke or other reasons for false returns. Turn on “rain” or turn down clutter and sensitivity decreases a bit but screen is better. Auto is definitely better than you’re tuning as it takes less time. Of interest the gimbals got rid of heel but did move with gusty winds.
When doing celestial you’re taught to increase accuracy to take at least simultaneous observations of three objects. Think it’s the same avoiding collision.
My big three are
Radar/AiS. Both show on the same screen so lumped together.
My senses. Eyes and ears mostly.
Another observer in high risk settings.
Secondary is VHF but very helpful if a conversation can be established.
I view the statement that if you have the means to use aids to navigation you better d-mn use them. You will be found at fault if you don’t use them or you don’t know how to use them properly if that can be proven.
I spent a lot more money outfitting the sailboat than I have the powerboat. With long range radar high up on the mast there’s a risk small craft nearby will be under the beam. Choosing how much angle that beam subtends is a quandary. Even leaving tracks of the targets can clutter the screen. Switching back and forth to get AIS information takes more time than your eyes.
So be busy bee. Use them all. As regards limitations. Seeing a cruise ship you can see the glow under the clouds. Sure when still miles away they show on AIS/radar. But I can make a two or three degree course correction if watching for glow but a 5-10 nm if depending upon my electronics. Also my electronics can (and have failed) in part on entirely. Much less likely with my eyes. Just like it’s important to use your radar during clear mild days to train yourself to correlate returns with reality it’s important to do that with your eyes and ears.
We have always had red lights on all our boats. Even then often turn off all lights in the pilot house. If you wait it’s surprising how well your rods work. Never ever let people use head lamps near the helmsman. Don’t like current screens where you can’t go to red and turn down the red. But in white if you dark accommodate and turn them way down you get by.
I mentioned the fish boats off PR. Let me expand. Early trip Newport to BVI but had solid state auto tuning radar and AIS transceiver. The fish boats may come out all the way to the land side near the trench. Many are fairly small and wood. Next to no superstructure. Weather for 2 days before so a goodly swell running. Sheets of rain still occurring but wind had fallen. Sea had yet to moderate much. You could see them when there was a bunch together and/or not moving or moving slowly. But the singles at plane would come and go. To make it worse birds were working giving additional returns. Best setting was harbor not birds or bouy. On the one or two occasions neither of the two up saw them they’d disappear when close. Eyes worked and didn’t hit any. Subsequent years just head more east before turning south and missed that area all together.

 

[marcs]

I have limited experience with radar, having operated a total of two different sets.

But wow radar has come a long way. I upgraded from an old green screen Furuno 1942 to a DRS12ANXT solid state Doppler radar last year and what a game changer for navigation in all conditions, day and night, fog, smoke and perfect unlimited visibility. Previously it took so much effort to track and interpret the radar that it was a significant distraction from normal watch keeping and weak returns would have me constantly on edge, but no more.

The automatic target acquisition and plotting ARPA is very good (I think only Furuno has that in recreational models, unless that has changed), and even in the absence of ARPA having approaching targets highlighted in red from the doppler shift is incredible. It only takes one or two (not actually sure, I think only one...) sweeps of the radar to show up in red, it doesn't have to be "acquired". Is amazing for discerning shore clutter from boats emerging from it.

The instant on and much lower power use is also a big improvement. Not cheap, but there are lower end models that have most of the functionality. And you can mirror the display onto a tablet or any HDMI display so crew can help.

For anyone thinking radar is not worth investing in any more... think again.

 

[PierreR]

I have an old Furuno green screen 48 mile radar that does a pretty decent job of painting crab pots. Useful at night.

 

[psneeld]

I have an old Furuno green screen 48 mile radar that does a pretty decent job of painting crab pots. Useful at night.

Some of the older medium to high end Furuno radars were dang good.

For quite awhile preferred by pros over the newer Radars. Today, probably couldn't go head to head but still capable of keeping you safe.

 

[rslifkin]

Some of the difference between older and newer radars is outright performance (in at least some scenarios). But a big part of it is that the older radars require a good bit of skill to get all of the performance they can deliver. The newer radars require far less user skill and interaction to give very good results.

 

[marcs]

Some of the older medium to high end Furuno radars were dang good.

For quite awhile preferred by pros over the newer Radars. Today, probably couldn't go head to head but still capable of keeping you safe.

Yup, my old Furuno wasn't lacking in raw power and was very solid for what it is, but simply can't compete with the sheer processing power and feature set available now in solid state radars.

Either is great out in an empty ocean, but when things get busier and tighter and start happening faster the assistance from having much more advanced processing happening on the radar signal is invaluable so you can spend less time glued to the radar and can still focus on other things, especially without a dedicated radar operator.

A pro may or may not find the improvement that big if they are very good at their craft, but I think your average recreational boater with an old radar would be amazed at how much easier and lower stress a modern radar setup is.

It is still a totally different more nuanced story if you are using your radar for finding birds for fishing, but you don't need a huge range for navigation purposes.

 

[psneeld]

Older radars and the average rec boater were like oil and water.

When working at a marine electronics firm I spent many a day tutoring owners on the most basic of radar things.

You just can't get good at things when only using them occasionally.

 

[Hippocampus]

Older radars and the average rec boater were like oil and water.

When working at a marine electronics firm I spent many a day tutoring owners on the most basic of radar things.

You just can't get good at things when only using them occasionally.

Old knew anything. Totally agree. Excellent point.
Even after some decades of boating still turn the radar on before moving always. Find I still learn fooling around on low stress pleasant days and benefit correlating what I see with my eyes and how it looks on radar. Also benefit just fooling around with it when I’m not depending on it. Find it’s especially helpful after a hiatus off the boat. Then when it’s no moon night or fog I’m confident.

 

[Pascall]

When I got my commercial radar patent, there were strict requirements for you to get the patent.
First 5 years of experience as a sailor (practical experience) only then could you start the study to get the big sailing license, this for being allowed to sail commercial ships as a captain.
Only if you had the large boating license in your possession could you start studying for the radar patent.
The radar lessons are given on a simulator.
With 5 simulators at the same time you get a real life situation, the VHF traffic between them plays a crucial role in this.
One of the most important spearheads in the training is, place familiarity, if you are not known locally, you will not sail if you have the choice.
Another one is, you're sailing on radar so you're only looking at your radar screen, not looking around!!
You often see that the windows of the wheelhouse are blinded to prevent you from looking outside.
This is for sailing on canals and rivers where there is very intensive shipping and very little space, at sea it is a lot easier.
Each river also has different requirements for the radar equipment, for example, what is allowed for one river is not allowed for another.
With the highest classes of radar equipment you can sail anywhere, these are the width scanners with the greatest distinction.

Greeting

Pascal.

 

[PierreR]

Okay, not sure where I am going with this info. Until this boat, I have never used radar and have just played around with the radar in good weather where I can compare. The surveyor told me "Don't get rid of this radar until it breaks. This was a very good unit". I played around with it and developed a sense of how to interpret it but!, it appears from reading here that I have an ignorant sense of bliss.
I am not a techy and will be starting my own thread as I am about to replace everything. That is I was going to replace everything but the radar.

 

[psneeld]

Okay, not sure where I am going with this info. Until this boat, I have never used radar and have just played around with the radar in good weather where I can compare. The surveyor told me "Don't get rid of this radar until it breaks. This was a very good unit". I played around with it and developed a sense of how to interpret it but!, it appears from reading here that I have an ignorant sense of bliss.
I am not a techy and will be starting my own thread as I am about to replace everything. That is I was going to replace everything but the radar.

Good basic Radar is essentially all you need.

The newer ones are just doing automatically which others did before. Especially things like ARPA and autotune. These things help the shorthanded crew so it is a plus.

Yes, the advances in technical aspects of sending and receiving the microwaves makes them more capable in some ways, but a higher powered, large open array Radar even 20 plus years ago was dang good.

The smaller 1-4Kw Radars before the Raymarine Pathfinders were not very good. It was the Pathfinder series (I believe) started the rage of variable wavelengths to make the weaker Radars more sensitive at the different ranges.

Not sure if this thread should spin off to a Radar thread as Radar in depth is a small part of the OP.

 

[Portage_Bay]

A thread dedicated to radar would be very valuable. Ideally the discussion would cover good basic radar sets and how to use them properly as well as the newer technology making radar easier to use for the less experienced.

I may be able to contribute regarding older good basic radars because that's all I have used.

Good basic Radar is essentially all you need.


Not sure if this thread should spin off to a Radar thread as Radar in depth is a small part of the OP.

 

[Don L]

if this thread is now a radar thread I will stop checking it

 

[psneeld]

So far 3 votes for a Radar spinoff thread.

 

[Old Sea Dog]

I for one would like to know why the USCG would accept a statement from someone that was not on scene as opposed to the crew that was. Sounds to me that the trawler crew has something to hide. Granted there was no loss of life or serious bodily injury, but sounds like an incomplete and biased investigation. Those with more knowledge and experience please tell me why the crew on board the trawler were not questioned.

 

[sunchaser]

I for one would like to know why the USCG would accept a statement from someone that was not on scene as opposed to the crew that was. .

So did the USCG accept or receive it? Those are two very different things for the linguists here.

Don L has every right to send the USCG a self-serving statement if not already done.

 

[psneeld]

I for one would like to know why the USCG would accept a statement from someone that was not on scene as opposed to the crew that was. Sounds to me that the trawler crew has something to hide. Granted there was no loss of life or serious bodily injury, but sounds like an incomplete and biased investigation. Those with more knowledge and experience please tell me why the crew on board the trawler were not questioned.

A statement does not make for an "investigation".

If the USCG does an investigation I believe it would be more than just comparing the 2 statements from the 2 vessels. If they don't do an investigation, they may just file the statements.

I am surprised that the crew was not questioned either...although are we sure they weren't questioned?

 

[Don L]

So did the USCG accept or receive it? Those are two very different things for the linguists here.

Don L has every right to send the USCG a self-serving statement if not already done.

The CG accepted getting it and I got it via my insurance that filed a request for it. I wasn't even going to file a report because I knew the CG would hold both boats at fault. But after I got and read the "appeared to be intoxicated" comment I filed a report.

The fishing boat owner sure was able to write in the most damming way aganist us.

 

[Don L]

My wife is feeling extra terrible because she was on watch. But today she said something she hadn't before while talking about it. She said "I was looking forward and in that direction and it was just darkness, then suddenly there was that boat all lit up".

You can decide how you want to take this.

 

[psneeld]

The USCG investigators (if there are any beyond those that took the statements) aren't on their first rodeo with fishing vessels.

Like any investigator, they will look for corroborating evidence or piece together enough for a professional, educated guess.

 

[High Wire]

Wouldn’t there have been mandatory for cause drug testing required following an accident? I’m assuming the fishing boat crew was licensed.

 

[psneeld]

The question is if the incident was ruled a "serious marine incident" (SMI).

I know for a fact that alcohol testing is usually done for almost any commercial involved incident, been involved with those, but not sure mandatory drug testing unless classified as an SMI.

Can't relate in this case, as I am not sure why anyone from USCG or local enforcement didn't ever arrive-on scene or meet either/both vessels at the dock soon after the accident. Usually at that point alcohol testing would be done on recreational boaters with probable cause and commercial guys as the law prescribes.

 

[Don L]

CG the morning after the collision told us on the phone they were going to go inspect the fishing boat. That would have been over 12 hours after the event. The CG did not meet us at our boat till 60+ hours after.

The fishing boats report says the master was at the helm, that the CG requested a drug test, and the the Master had taken one.

You know what this means? Not a freaking thing.

These freaking guys LEFT us out in the water disabled not knowing if we were going to be OK. They didn't tell the CG they were leaving. You think I believe any damn thing they say?

 

[BruceK]

On what I`ve read the fishing boat version would be approached with caution but, to be fair their leaving the scene may stem from a misunderstanding of instructions to move away. Which might well in the circumstances have been given, across the water absent VHF communication, in the direct terms the OP might use.

 

[Old Sea Dog]

Don agree with you wholeheartedly.
This situation is fubar. Any half wit accident attorney would have a field day with the investigation timeliness.
Hope you come out good.