De icer question

[paulga]

Hi,
I want to install a Kasco bubbler 2400D for the winter. The marina allows me to plug in from an available pedestal. I plan to use this pigtail adapter to connect the bubbler.

There are two questions. First, the plug end says L5-20P, I think the pedestal socket is L5-30P, is there any concern that this adapter working in a 30P socket?

Second, the bubbler requires a GFCI protected circuit. This pigtail adapter does not have GFCI protection. I plan to add a regular outdoor timer, like the GE extreme weather outdoor 24 hour timer, but the specs of such mechanical timers do not include GFCI. How to meet the GFCI requirement?

 

[Comodave]

Get a waterproof electrical box and mount a 20 amp GFI in it. Run a cable from the outlet on the adapter to the electrical box. Plug the bubbler into the electrical box.

 

[paulga]

Get a waterproof electrical box and mount a 20 amp GFI in it. Run a cable from the outlet on the adapter to the electrical box. Plug the bubbler into the electrical box.

There is assembled box for sale. This satisfies the GFCI requirement. But It will trip at 20amp, the pedestal circuit breaker trips at 30amp. The bubbler does not have a built in fuse, could it be already damaged at 20amp power surge before the GFCI activated?

 

[Iggy]

Get a waterproof electrical box and mount a 20 amp GFI in it. Run a cable from the outlet on the adapter to the electrical box. Plug the bubbler into the electrical box.

I would take it one more step. Add a 20A breaker to the new box. The power station uses a 30a breaker which is too high. Since the GFI is rated for 20A and should be using no smaller than12 gauge cords for 20A.

 

[paulga]

I would take it one more step. Add a 20A breaker to the new box. The power station uses a 30a breaker which is too high. Since the GFI is rated for 20A and should be using no smaller than12 gauge cords for 20A.

Is the purpose of the 20A breaker to protect the bubbler?
the breaker trips at 20A. without the breaker, the gfci outlet also trips at 20A. so I don't get it.
the bubbler's operating amp is 5.4A. so should a 10A or 15A breaker be used?

 

[Comodave]

I would take it one more step. Add a 20A breaker to the new box. The power station uses a 30a breaker which is too high. Since the GFI is rated for 20A and should be using no smaller than12 gauge cords for 20A.

I meant to specify that but I guess I didn’t.

 

[Comodave]

Is the purpose of the 20A breaker to protect the bubbler?
the breaker trips at 20A. without the breaker, the gfci outlet also trips at 20A. so I don't get it.
the bubbler's operating amp is 5.4A. so should a 10A or 15A breaker be used?

The purpose of the breaker is to protect the wiring.

 

[Iggy]

To protect he wiring and your boat from catching fire. Keep in mind, the 30A breaker in the tower has been exposed to moisture for god knows how long. Some are very hard to trip due to this.

The GFI outlet could trip if on over current. It may not, its not a designed as circuit breaker. They provide protection when the current in the HOT wire is not balanced. Why risk it? Is your boat worth the cost of a breaker?

 

[paulga]

To protect he wiring and your boat from catching fire. Keep in mind, the 30A breaker in the tower has been exposed to moisture for god knows how long. Some are very hard to trip due to this.

The GFI outlet could trip if on over current. It may not, its not a designed as circuit breaker. They provide protection when the current in the HOT wire is not balanced. Why risk it? Is your boat worth the cost of a breaker?

Got it. So it's very important. But 20a is too high for the bubbler. This circuit will power only the bubbler. Is a 10a breaker better?

 

[Iggy]

On start up, the amperage will be high. The next question would be, how high? The manufacturer could tell you, OR do a test your self.

 

[paulga]

On start up, the amperage will be high. The next question would be, how high? The manufacturer could tell you, OR do a test your self.

The manufacturer told me it requires a 15a GFCI outlet and a 20a circuit breaker.

I saw 3 types of 20a circuit breakers, standard trip, afci then GFCI, priced low to high. Is a standard trip good to use in an outdoor electrical box?

 

[Bmarler]

Locked rotor amps are listed as 20. That’s why you need the 20amp breaker. It eliminates nuisance tripping as opposed to a 15 amp circuit breaker.
Can’t believe it’s time for winter planning already.

 

[paulga]

Locked rotor amps are listed as 20. That’s why you need the 20amp breaker. It eliminates nuisance tripping as opposed to a 15 amp circuit breaker.
Can’t believe it’s time for winter planning already.

Does "locked rotor amp 20a" mean 20amp will cause the rotor to lock?

 

[Jeff F]

Joining in late here. Does the pedestal not have 15a GFCI outlets? And aren't the L5-20P and L5-30P different sizes?

I've used bubblers up to 1 HP on dedicated 15a GFCI circuits. Think the OPs is smaller than that. The 20a in front of a 15a requirement makes no sense to me.

 

[SteveK]

aren't the L5-20P and L5-30P different sizes?

I sure hope so.

 

[paulga]

Joining in late here. Does the pedestal not have 15a GFCI outlets? And aren't the L5-20P and L5-30P different sizes?

I've used bubblers up to 1 HP on dedicated 15a GFCI circuits. Think the OPs is smaller than that. The 20a in front of a 15a requirement makes no sense to me.

it looks like the "L5-20P" fits the 30P socket on the pedestal.

the manufacturer's said that the bubbler should be plugged to a 15a gfci outlet, if adding a main circuit breaker for this circuit, the breaker should be 20a.

so a 15a gfci outlet will not trip for a transient 20a current every time the bubbler is starting?

 

[Jeff F]

so a 15a gfci outlet will not trip for a transient 20a current every time the bubbler is starting?

The bubbler will start and run fine with a 15a GFCI outlet, as long as that outlet doesn't share a circuit with other high loads.

Again, does the marina have existing 15a plugs? That's your easiest starting point by far.

 

[luna]

The radius of the prongs on a L5-20P is much smaller than that of a L5-30P. Rest assured that a 20 won't fit into a 30. NEMA wouldn't have it any other way.
Here is a chart that may give you an idea of the differences.

https://www.internationalconfig.com/catalog_pages/flanged_inlets_flanged_outlets_guide.pdf

The everyday GFCI that is found in every modern kitchen or bathroom is not a Circuit Breaker designed to prevent an overload. The 15 A rating that is given to this GFCI is simply the rating of the connections that receive the wiring and the plug's prongs, just like the much more common 15 A Duplex Receptacle where you plug your iphone charger into the wall. It's not an overload Circuit Breaker either.

This GFCI simply compares the current on the ungrounded (Black) conductor to that on the grounded (White) conductor and if there is a difference of greater than about 5mA, in an effort to save your life, the GFCI opens the circuit. GFCI's react to an imbalance of current not excessive current.

Good luck with the bubbler.

 

[Comodave]

Look at this adapter. I found it on West Marine.

Marinco Shore Power Pigtail Adapter, 30 Amp 125V Male to 3-Way 15 Amp 125V Female with GCI

 

[Bmarler]

Does "locked rotor amp 20a" mean 20amp will cause the rotor to lock?

No, locked rotor amps are what the motor will draw if the rotor is held fast. There will always be a spike in energy draw when the motor is started, but it only lasts a very small amount of time. Breakers have the ability to withstand that inrush current. Locked rotor current is what you measure after the inrush spike has leveled out but the shaft is jammed by something. So if the motor is on a 15 amp breaker and the shaft is jammed somehow, the breaker will trip as the locked rotor current is 20 amps. This is what you want to happen.

 

[luna]

Do you mean this adapter?

Pigtail Adapter, 30A 125V Male To 3-Way 15A 125V Female With GFCI

Dockside adapter that provides safer hook-up to 30A dockside power by providing protection against harmful electric shock and reducing the possibility of fire. Can also be used for other outdoor, harsh environments such as construction sites or wherever ground fault protection is desired. Note...

www.marinco.com

Where is the circuit protection?

You have to wonder how Navico can get away with selling to the naive public a device which allows a path to overload the (likely) 16 ga. conductors in the De-icers power cord.

 

[paulga]

The bubbler will start and run fine with a 15a GFCI outlet, as long as that outlet doesn't share a circuit with other high loads.

Again, does the marina have existing 15a plugs? That's your easiest starting point by far.

I checked yesterday, the marina pedestal does not a straight blade 15a outlet installed. It only has the locking nema 30a sockets.

 

[paulga]

Do you mean this adapter?

Pigtail Adapter, 30A 125V Male To 3-Way 15A 125V Female With GFCI

Dockside adapter that provides safer hook-up to 30A dockside power by providing protection against harmful electric shock and reducing the possibility of fire. Can also be used for other outdoor, harsh environments such as construction sites or wherever ground fault protection is desired. Note...

www.marinco.com

Where is the circuit protection?

You have to wonder how Navico can get away with selling to the naive public a device which allows a path to overload the (likely) 16 ga. conductors in the De-icers power cord.

Does this adapter work? It specifies 10awg 20amp, and the plug is 30p.

The link is Amazon.com

From the straight blade socket to the electrical box(circuit breaker and GFCI outlet), should a 3-prong open end replacement cord be used?

here is the amazon link to the a replacement cord:

Amazon.com

It's 12 awg but why only supports 15amp?

 

[Jeff F]

The everyday GFCI that is found in every modern kitchen or bathroom is not a Circuit Breaker designed to prevent an overload.

Quite right. I had forgotten that. But best practice dictates circuit breakers limiting current to the rating of the receptacle and wiring. So installing a 15a rated GFCI outlet on a 20a circuit is generally a bad practice, and putting it on a 30a protected circuit is a very bad practice.

My solution was to start with an old 30a shore power cord with a burnt boat end. I cut off the bad connector, and attached a small 30a distribution panel with 15a current protected gfci receptacles. With this arrangement I powered two bubblers all winter. The panel stayed under cover in the cockpit of the boat. Photo attached for reference.

Again, I question the need for more than 15a of current protection.

 

[luna]

The Amazon adapter suffers from the same problem as the Marinco unit, no circuit protection, plus the Amazon one has no GFCI which you must have as you are dunking an electric motor in the drink. Never a great idea to begin with.

Unless you can find a cordset with a built in circuit breaker (which I doubt you will) you will need to acquire the appropriate box to house a 20A circuit breaker (or two) and then another box to house the 20 A duplex receptacles. All connected with the correct conductors.

If it was me, I would have the ground fault device built into the breaker as it keeps it better protected from the elements, you can then use just a standard 20 A duplex receptacle, plus I would run at least 2 circuits.

Here is a 20A 120 V GFCI breaker.

Square D Homeline 20 Amp Single-Pole GFCI Circuit Breaker HOM120GFICP - The Home Depot

The Square D by Schneider Electric Homeline 20 Amp One-Pole GFCI circuit breaker is designed for overload and short-circuits protection, combined with Class A ground fault protection. Class A denotes a ground fault circuit interrupter that will trip when a fault current to ground is 6 Milli...

www.homedepot.com

I would also obtain approval from the Marina if I intended to place any of this electrical equipment on their dock.

 

[paulga]

Quite right. I had forgotten that. But best practice dictates circuit breakers limiting current to the rating of the receptacle and wiring. So installing a 15a rated GFCI outlet on a 20a circuit is generally a bad practice, and putting it on a 30a protected circuit is a very bad practice.

My solution was to start with an old 30a shore power cord with a burnt boat end. I cut off the bad connector, and attached a small 30a distribution panel with 15a current protected gfci receptacles. With this arrangement I powered two bubblers all winter. The panel stayed under cover in the cockpit of the boat. Photo attached for reference.

Again, I question the need for more than 15a of current protection.

The number 20 is likely also based on the breaker inside the Kasco control unit c25 is a 20a breaker

 

[SteveK]

Bottom line, you plug an adapter cord into a 30A pedestal, the adapted end is still 30A. Several have correctly told you that a proper sized breaker needs to be added inline. So far all the offerings do not have a breaker, they just relate the adapted plug expected use.
Of course Paulga knows this and has trolled everyone again.

 

[luna]

The number 20 is likely based on the breaker inside the Kasco control unit c25 is a 20a breaker

Where does it say that any of Kasco's Control Units come with any Circuit Breaker or even a GFCI receptacle.

Kasco is clear the 120 V version comes with a timer, a photo cell to turn on some lights at dark, a 3 foot power cord and a GFCI tester that you can use to test "an outlet" Not their outlet, an outlet.
You plug the Control Unit into an existing GFCI protected 15 A circuit by way of a receptacle after first connecting the motor's cord to the appropriate terminals inside the Control Unit.
Program the timer to turn on and you have a mixmaster.

 

[Jeff F]

You plug the Control Unit into an existing GFCI protected 15 A circuit by way of a receptacle after first connecting the motor's cord to the appropriate terminals inside the Control Unit.
Program the timer to turn on and you have a mixmaster.

'zactly.

I did a little googling on 20a vs 15a. Turns out that 20a duplex receptacles have a different pattern. If a device requires 20a I have no doubt that the manufacturer fits it with a plug that will not fit in a 15a outlet.

I'll bet that your unit has a 15a plug rather than a 20a plug.