Dear Diary - Weebles will splash soon.

[SteveK]

Muscle memory is what makes one look good on their own boat. The needed operation is done without thinking about it. Practice.

Heard my wife saying to guests, he is going to show off again.
I back out of a slip into the intended direction of travel (cause I cannot back the other way) and then turn the boat on a dime in the fairway to head bow out, rpm is around 1500 until turn completes. There is a few steps involved.
I am OK with others having thrusters, people must think I have them too.

 

[ranger58sb]

All I can tell you is I find a thruster helpful and stress-reducing. Anyone who says otherwise is just being a contrarian or hasn't been in tight spots. Or is pretty good at repairing fiberglass.

In short, a thruster is not a crutch, it's an enabler. Whether you're a beginner or experienced, allows you to do things you could not otherwise do.

This younger generation years of playing games now operate boats and drones.
Peter have you got a joystick yet controlling the engine and thruster.

Our newish boat neighbor has a Marlowe with a yacht controller of some sort (dunno actual brand) and he docks using a little portable box... which must have something like the equivalent of a joystick...

OTOH, I think I'd be a total flop with a joystick, can't hardly even "drive" our bow spotlight with one... No experience, never played computer games and so forth...

Our first biggish boat was a single diesel, no thruster -- and we learned to deal with it. (Spring lines are my second-best friend, right after wifey). Then we had a twin screw boat, learned to deal with it. Wouldn't ever have turned down a thruster, being in the "anything that helps" camp, but the $$ never showed up for an aftermarket installation...

This boat came to us with a bow thruster. Nifty, I thought. So then I bonked* the swim platform a few times while docking stern to... in retrospect, mostly because I distracted myself by trying to use the thruster to do something... when I should have been simply parking the boat.

Gradually that's the way our routine has become; now we mostly just dock the boat using the gears. And then sometimes use the bow thruster when it can do something the gears can't easily manage. Usually like move wifey closer to a forward pile to get a line on it. Or very occasionally, to overcome wind/tide/current to either keep us on station while lines are being secured or to slightly lighten a hard landing if we're being pushed into a dock or some such.

Bottom line is I like the bow thruster, wouldn't turn down a stern thruster... but I've also gradually begun to recognize when it's useful and when it's a distraction.

While I understand the arguments to "just learn how to operate the boat" I don't see that as reason to NOT have a thruster if one is within budget limits. I do cringe a little when I see some docking maneuvers, where it looks like the operator likely has no clue, and probably couldn't dock the boat without his thruster, maybe without his joystick. I'd call that critique of the operator though, and likely wouldn't assume the thruster actually caused his/her ineptitude.

(* In my further defense: My bonking events were not only a product of thruster distraction. It happens I was also having to learn single-lever gear/throttle controls at the same time. That was really the more difficult learning curve, since I'm not used to having to look at the controls to see (remember) what we're doing at any given time. That at least got better with practice. <sigh>)

Back to our first boat: If it were now, I'd add a bow and stern thruster in a heartbeat. Necessary? No. Nifty? Yep. Wifey and spring lines would probably still be my best friends. Probably wouldn't care about a joystick, though; I still think I'd be dangerous with one of those...

-Chris

 

[Hippocampus]

Hardest thing for me to learn is to leave the rudder alone and just use the stern/bow thrusters. Of course with current or wind sometimes you need the rudder but often not. High aspect bulbed fin keels pivot on their keels. Motorboats don’t. That also took some getting used to. The sides of sailboats are usually curved so the magic spring works like magic. Some motor boats have sections of flat sides and springs aren’t as effective. But motor boats have more power and back and fill better. Has taken me time time and I’m not there yet. Still much better on 46’ sail than the NT. But it’s not rocket science. Think it through before hand and expect it will be different. Slow is pro.

 

[mvweebles]

Hardest thing for me to learn is to leave the rudder alone and just use the stern/bow thrusters. Of course with current or wind sometimes you need the rudder but often not. High aspect bulbed fin keels pivot on their keels. Motorboats don’t. That also took some getting used to. The sides of sailboats are usually curved so the magic spring works like magic. Some motor boats have sections of flat sides and springs aren’t as effective. But motor boats have more power and back and fill better. Has taken me time time and I’m not there yet. Still much better on 46’ sail than the NT. But it’s not rocket science. Think it through before hand and expect it will be different. Slow is pro.

How has it been for Team Hippocampus coming up to speed (you and your wife)? You were boatless for a while, then jumped into new and varied environments almost immediately. Similar to what Team Weebles will face. As I recall, you've described your wife as small. Does she drive or just you?

I was in the same slip for 20 years so can relate SteveKs experience of muscle memory, and I can certainly relate to how quickly I've re-bonded with maneuvering Weebles. But it will be a while before I have consistent dockage. My other half and I will need to advance our skills. I can certainly see a case for a stern thruster, though that's not something I'd even consider.

Enquiring minds want to know....

Peter

 

[Choices]

I use the thruster to reduce shifts on the transmission. My goal is to back into the slip with five shifts or less.

The bow thruster eliminates the back and fill routine. Can I do it, yes no problem. But I also use power steering, power brakes, air conditioning, etc. I don't work on my boat with a pair of pliers, I use the whole tool box for the best tool.

I would love a stern thruster! But a bow thruster allows almost perfect control with gentleness to the boat. I also never touch the throttles docking. Usually when you do it's because you misjudged or made a mistake.

Need more Weebles updates!

 

[ranger58sb]

I can certainly see a case for a stern thruster, though that's not something I'd even consider.

Given how extensive your refit has been (is being)... I think I'd have also slapped a stern thruster on there in a heartbeat... just 'cause.

Sorta like "while in the process of... might as well also do..."

Requirements creep, of course, but I can be easy with your money.



-Chris

 

[rslifkin]

Thrusters in general aren't a crutch, but I see many people use them as one. In my mind, you learn what the boat can do, then use thrusters to do what it otherwise can't. But I see some people rely so heavily on the thrusters that they don't know they have a rudder, or any other tools to use. As ranger pointed out, there's some risk to juggling extra controls if you don't need to.

I watched a boat about 45' back into a berth as smooth as silk, the captain was standing in the cockpit operating a joy stick. This younger generation years of playing games now operate boats and drones.
Peter have you got a joystick yet controlling the engine and thruster.

I've had other boaters close to my age look at my boat and start asking about thrusters and joysticks. When I pointed out that we had neither, one person just asked me "how do you dock it then?"

 

[mvweebles]

Given how extensive your refit has been (is being)... I think I'd have also slapped a stern thruster on there in a heartbeat... just 'cause.

Sorta like "while in the process of... might as well also do..."

Requirements creep, of course, but I can be easy with your money.



-Chris

I briefly considered a stern thruster but frankly, with a large rudder, there just wasn't much of a problem to be solved. Logistically, on my round-stern hull, it would be a challenge.

The main reason I went with a bow thruster is the slip I own in Florida is in a really tight spot, and I am forced to land on the non-favored side of Weebles (which is also why I had a hull-gate installed on the port side - which I truly like too). The two improvements - thruster and hull-gate - make landing on my port-side so much easier, especially single handed - especially older and too many Covid pounds....

While the rhetoric on thrusters has reduced over the years, it's still a common topic for boats like ours. I've always recommended them because I think they're a good value: the most expensive boat is the one that is unused. Many of us love the idea of heading out on a sunny morning but fear the return with afternoon winds. A thruster can make the difference between go/no-go and quickly pays for itself in a twisted sort of boat-enomics way.

All I can say is because of my delivery background, I've driven a LOT of boats. I've owned Weebles for 25+ years and have done fine without a thruster - as can be expected of a classic Wm Garden displacement design, she's a very mannerly and predictable boat in close quarters. A thruster - at any level of skill - allows the helmsman to de-risk docking. That can only be a good thing.

Peter

 

[mvweebles]

Thrusters in general aren't a crutch, but I see many people use them as one. In my mind, you learn what the boat can do, then use thrusters to do what it otherwise can't.

I certainly understand your point. To me, one of the non-intuitive aspects of a thruster is the faster you are moving, the less effective they are. In practical terms, if the plan is to center the helm and use thrusters to steer the boat coming down the fairway at 3-kts, the thrusters may not work very well.

Best case scenario is someone like myself who knows how to drive a boat, just wants an extra tool to de-risk. But we all have to start somewhere - I would hope the newcomers who really need thrusters will evolve into decent helmsmen where a thruster is more accessory than requirement.

And I certainly see Ranger58's point about distraction. As I've mentioned, I occasionally get confused with the gear/throttle and need to really think about each action. Going slow gives me time to double-check my reasoning.

I'm looking forward to spending some quality time with my other-half practicing our short-game. We used to be very well coordinated - we tried headsets but hated them. Easier to have a 15-second conversation on what line would be where; knowing when to abort a landing and reload.

Peter

 

[ranger58sb]

...we tried headsets but hated them.

Which headsets did you try? And why did you dislike them?

-Chris

 

[rslifkin]

On the gear/throttle thing, I might be inclined to convert to single lever in your situation. With a single engine, a single lever is intuitive to me, especially if the boat is lower powered and needs throttle when maneuvering more than occasionally. One hand on the shift/throttle, one on the wheel becomes the normal position.

At the same time, with twin engines, I have a strong preference for split controls. With twins, they typically get split to opposite sides of the helm, so you get a "shift hand" and a "throttle hand", either one moving to the wheel (or thruster control) as needed. Somehow that feels more intuitive to me than having single levers grouped together for the engines. Splitting the single levers to each side of the helm would work, but I think it would make an engine synchronizer a requirement as you'd be throttling them with separate hands when underway.

I do occasionally wish for a bow thruster on my boat, as the bow blows off pretty significantly and the pivot point is fairly far forward, so certain situations would have higher wind limits with a thruster. And it would reduce the amount of space behind me needed to depart off a face dock while pinned to the dock by wind. But the need for the thruster is too infrequent to justify the cost and effort of installing one I think, especially considering I'd want a rather large one that could move the bow up-wind against 20 - 25 kts.

 

[mvweebles]

Which headsets did you try? And why did you dislike them?

-Chris

Didn't like the concept. First digging them out of the drawer. Then getting them rigged-up. Batteries. You get the drill.

When anchoring, 100% of our communications are hand signals anyway. When docking, they might be a slight help so no elevated voice needed to issue short message "Bow line fast" or something. Certainly the larger the boat, the more sense they make. The mistake we would make is to fall into conversational mode for what should be a yes/no question - is the anchor free? Are the bow line fast? I liken it to training a dog. "Bruno: Sit" works. "Bruno, would you like to sit down and make yourself comfortable while I get your food ready?" doesn't work.

On the gear/throttle thing, I might be inclined to convert to single lever in your situation. With a single engine, a single lever is intuitive to me, especially if the boat is lower powered and needs throttle when maneuvering more than occasionally. One hand on the shift/throttle, one on the wheel becomes the normal position.

I thought about going to a single control, especially to encourage my other half to get even more comfortable driving and docking. But for some reason I've just never been at ease with them. Maybe I've never seen one setup really well, but they just don't seem as smooth.

I love the feel of electronic controls. Man, those are smooth. I just didn't want the electronic and mechanical baggage that comes with them. But they are super cool.

eter

 

[SteveK]

Peter. You have a single engine/prop with bow thruster. Practice.
I suggest to find a mooring buoy and no other boats to distract. Bow towards the ball (does not need to be close) and do 360* around the ball while keeping bow to and making the stern move. Easier in the direction of prop walk.
The name of this move eludes me. Used in fairways with single screw.

 

[rslifkin]

I thought about going to a single control, especially to encourage my other half to get even more comfortable driving and docking. But for some reason I've just never been at ease with them. Maybe I've never seen one setup really well, but they just don't seem as smooth.

I love the feel of electronic controls. Man, those are smooth. I just didn't want the electronic and mechanical baggage that comes with them. But they are super cool.

I wouldn't go for electronic controls either. From some of the stories I've seen, many of the setups don't strike me as being robust enough on the electrical side. And for my twins, nobody makes electronic split controls.

I think mechanical single levers are pretty sensitive to the quality of controls and cables used to get smooth operation. And I'm not sure they'll ever be great with a dual helm setup (and that certainly adds complexity). I had forgotten about the second helm part of the equation when I suggested that.

 

[guy with a boat]

The mistake we would make is to fall into conversational mode for what should be a yes/no question … I liken it to training a dog. "Bruno: Sit" works. "Bruno, would you like to sit down and make yourself comfortable while I get your food ready?" doesn't work.

I’m not sure that Wifey B would approve of your analogy about communicating with your wife… :lol::lol::lol:

 

[mvweebles]

Peter. You have a single engine/prop with bow thruster. Practice.
I suggest to find a mooring buoy and no other boats to distract. Bow towards the ball (does not need to be close) and do 360* around the ball while keeping bow to and making the stern move. Easier in the direction of prop walk.
The name of this move eludes me. Used in fairways with single screw.

It's called back & fill. I know it well.

I don't think I've conveyed the intricacies of my recent docking situations well but they've been a bit tricky, especially single-handed. These are tight commercial docks with boats rafted 6-deep with tidal swings of up to 6-feet so things move around a fair amount. And stuff is packed-in pretty tightly - fine for an old steel fishing boat that use tractor tires for fenders. Not so fine for a freshly painted fiberglass Easter egg.

My point is that, using a skiing analogy, I've been mostly in "Black Diamond" docking situations lately (not Double-Black Diamond, but definitely advanced). Had I not had a thruster, I would not have attempted it single-handed because the risk was too great. I think it's analogous at any skill level - a newbie can get comfortable with basic docking with aid of a thruster; an intermediate helmsman with a thruster can stretch a bit and not be as concerned about afternoon winds. In a way, it enables practicing in real world conditions.

BTW - when I was teaching, I never really found the 'toss a milk jug in open water' method very effective. Close quarters really requires some skin-in-the-game - spinning a boat in a fairway is pretty straightforward, but requires no wind/current to learn the basics.

Peter

 

[SteveK]

OK then, it is your confidence that needs a tune up and you will be good to go. Perhaps scratching the new paint enters the picture.

 

[mvweebles]

Saturday, Feb 18th - LFP + AGM = Heat

*** ALERT - this is a bit technical and boring ****

Yesterday Orlando was changing a fan belt that was too long and found the engine start battery was unusually warm. This is charged from the LFP House Bank via a DC-DC charger. We changed the DIP switches to reduce charge level a bit but this morning the battery was still warm and consuming 10A which resulted in a surface temp of battery case of 140F.



It took a bit of sleuthing, but he figured out that when the 1-2-Both switch is on Both, it's feeding both 14.4V from LFP house bank and 13.2V from the DC-DC to the bus bar attached to the AGMs. I guess the voltage potential discrepency registers as heat in the Start battery.

Here's my DC wiring diagram - I've highlighted the Start Battery (1); 1-2-Both switch on main panel (2); and the DC-DC charger (3) which is also visible in the photo above. I've also added a dashed purple line showing the pathes.



The immediate fix is to only use HOUSE (#1 position) and not BOTH. This is the normal operating situation anyway - BOTH is for paralleling if needed which should be rare (hopefully never). However, as I don't want anyone to make the same mistake, I will place a ON/OFF switch inlne in the parallel line and leave it OFF unless a deliberate desire to parallel (which will also require the MAIN switch be on BOTH).

Whew - Peter

 

[ranger58sb]

Didn't like the concept. First digging them out of the drawer. Then getting them rigged-up. Batteries. You get the drill.

When anchoring, 100% of our communications are hand signals anyway.

Certainly the larger the boat, the more sense they make.

I thought about going to a single control, especially to encourage my other half to get even more comfortable driving and docking. But for some reason I've just never been at ease with them.

I love the feel of electronic controls. Man, those are smooth. I just didn't want the electronic and mechanical baggage that comes with them. But they are super cool.

Ah. Yep, all that.

Our situation -- enclosed helm, can't ever hear and usually can't see wifey 90% of the time and vice versa -- argues for putting up with the mechanics of the things...

Our single-lever control are electronic, very smooth. And have the advantage of automatically syncing the engines when I want to. They work pretty well, near as I can tell...

But the part that took getting used to is not being able to feel whether we're in gear or neutral. Before, split throttles and gears, throttles on one side of the wheel and gears on the other... it was pretty easy to feel whether in forward, neutral or reverse... without looking. Not the case now.

You'd think, of course, that I'd be able to remember what I did last. Uh, huh. I'm old.

And now at our new marina/slip we have even less room to maneuver in the fairway and into the slip... with a big-a$$ bumper (dinghy) hanging off the a$$ end... so it's even more critical to NOT make a mistake by inadvertently applying throttle when all I meant to do it shift into a gear.

Surprise, almost everything I bounced off while learning was mostly in relatively large easy slips on our way north. Now that it's more difficult, I've actually gotten better at it.

Fingers crossed, of course.

-Chris

 

[Delta Riverat]

I would love a bow thruster, would make life easier.

Not going to get one installed, too much dough.

 

[mvweebles]

Tuesday, Feb 21 2023 - Generator but no power....& Northern Lights Warranty issues

I bought a new Northern Lights 6kw generator for the refit. Given delays with Covid and the Hack Team, the generator is now a couple years old and has about 30-minutes of run-time on it. But it has never generated so much as a single watt of power. Why? If you ask the local generator tech, it's because the AVR (Automatic Voltage Relay - a beefy printed circuit board) is defective. How does he know this? Because he has a spare and he swapped it and presto! 120VAC as shown in the picture below.

So this is a new generator, and should be covered under NL's "One + Four Year Warranty" right? At least the AVR should be, right? Apparently not - according to NL, the wiring in the terminal box looks sloppy and they are certain someone has messed with it and therefore it's not the AVR even though a swapped AVR works fine. To their thinking, the generator is test-run before it leaves the factory therefore there can be no DOA issues. If I want to disprove them, I'm free to take the boat to San Diego, hire a NL certified technician to troubleshoot.

Leaving aside my tale of woe, this warranty sleight-of-hand is something for y'all to consider. If you install your own or hire a non-NL branded tech to do the install, your chances of having a durable warranty quickly approach zero. For you new-boat buyers or those who had their generators installed by a NL Service Center and think you're in good shape, not so fast - cruise outside the travel limits of a NL Service Tech and use someone else and guess what? Another gotcha.

I've been an ardent support of NL for years - I cannot tell you how many times I've posted their videos about how they marinize their engines. Top quality. But from a customer support perspective? Unless you buy into their walled garden of tech support, well, I'm not impressed. For those roll-your-own types (and there are plenty on this forum), NL no longer has my unwavering support. Great kit, but a bit of a wasteland for DIY types. NextGen might be a better choice, at least in the US.

For me, I'll have the spare AVR installed by the electrician here. My warranty is void anyway, though I have reached out to NL via the place I purchased the generator through to see if they'd consider replacing the AVR board. I'm hopeful but not optimistic.

Peter

 

[Miz Trom]

Peter:

It appears that Valley Power Systems (the owner of Northern Lights since 1999) has been expanding. Their "history" graph on this page

https://www.valleypowersystems.com/about/

reveals that the number of brands they have acquired since 2005 is rather astounding.

Valley brags about being a "family-owned business since 1949" on the same webpage. Probably attempting to imply that integrity and probity guide the company's policies.

Apparently, this is not the case. As most of us are old enough to understand, integrity and probity often get lost when a company's original founders are inevitably replaced.

Thank you for sharing your experience with Northern Lights customer betrayal. One of the main reasons to peruse Trawler Forum, right here.

Commiserating,
Mrs. Trombley

 

[Hippocampus]

Seems unusual. You say “ the wiring in the terminal box looks sloppy and they are certain someone has messed with it ”. Is that possible? Did you buy the NL in an unopened shipping crate or is it possible your dealer sold you a return?

For a prior boat I bought a NL used as a demo in the Newport boat show for half price. But bought it from a NL dealer who installed it. Post sale service was excellent. I can understand why they want to support their dealers but agree they handled you in a shoddy manner.

Have friends swear by Phasor for small gensets. But personally think the low rpm NLs are the best out there and so easy to do routine maintenance. Hate my current Onan.

 

[rslifkin]

Have friends swear by Phasor for small gensets. But personally think the low rpm NLs are the best out there and so easy to do routine maintenance. Hate my current Onan.

From what I know, Phasor takes a fairly similar build philosophy to NL in terms of simple, repairable equipment and they've got a good reputation. Onan historically has built good generators, but I think they've gone down the complexity rabbit hole like some others (and they suffered from Cummins ditching a lot of Onan designed stuff after the buyout due to not-invented-here syndrome). I'm not sure about quality on the current Kohler or Westerbeke offerings, but I've heard less than great things about support for both.



All of the big generator builders mostly stick to 1800 rpm units though, the higher RPM stuff is usually found only on less heavy duty "compact" units like the small NexGen stuff and a few others.

 

[mvweebles]

Northern LIghts - more on voltage regulator warranty

My generator controls are integral to the new main panel, not the standard Northern Lights sub-panel (which I struggled to find a place for). So the wiring in the terminal box had been touched. It's pretty straightforward though. In NL's defense, that's what they were reacting to. I do understand their concern and suspicion.

I do have a sliver of silver lining update. I originally purchased the generator through SDMX (San Diego Marine Exchange, old-school chandlery in San Diego). I sent them an email describing the situation as accurately as possible without being over-long – I asked for how to register via whatever their Warranty Card might be; and a replacement Voltage Regulator. 15-minutes later I was cc’d as it was forwarded to several people at NL with the refreshing intro “Please see below – this is an unusual circumstance. Is there anything we can do for this customer?” As an aside, I cannot tell you how helpful SDMX has been on several occasions – including delivering my 12-foot flopper stopper poles to a good Samaritan boat at San Diego Yacht Club so they could be delivered to me in Ensenada.

There is no doubt Northern Lights makes a good generator. But customer service matters. The marine generator market is incredibly competitive – Cummins has really started to hard-charge to assure that boats with a Cummins’ engine also have Onan generators. My guess is a lot of incentives to builders. This where global maps get rolled-out with service center locations meant to impress. Both Onan and Northern Lights have impressive span.

But (ain’t there always a but??)…….given the choice between Onan and NL, NL is likely the right answer. But for many owners of used boats that predominate the likes of TrawlerForum, CruisersForum, etc. the right path may not be a big-name company unless they are willing to live in their service-center ecosystem. A company like NextGen (perhaps Phasor but I don’t really know them at all) might be a better choice because companies like that are used to providing direct-to-buyer support. They welcome DIY efforts and can better assist the average owner through troubleshooting. There is no bias towards hiring their techs because they don’t have any. Is the NextGen a better generator? Pretty sure it’s not, but might be a better overall ownership experience for someone like myself who isn't near a yachting center and probably wouldn't want to pay their likely steep labor rates. Although NL offers a warranty on parts, you apparently have to go through their technicians to get it. Sort of feels like the Deere lock-up on right-to-work engines.

Its been about 24-hours since SDMX forwarded my email to Northern Lights. I’ll respond today that the Voltage Regulator was replaced with a universal one and run for 3-hours under load yesterday at a consistent 125VAC/62HZ. Certainly seems like that should set aside any concerns that the NL voltage regulator was bad.

Peter

 

[DavidM]

I had a NextGen 3.5 on my last trawler. Dead a$$ simple design but the engine ran at 2,800 rpm. Same for the 5 kW unit. Not terribly noisy, but for heavy use and long life the 1,800 rpm generators and particularly the NL can’t be beat.

The market for generators has gotten more sophisticated and so have the electronics that go with them. Most want AGS and other niceties that can best be handled with electronics. But you pay the price. A $500 circuit board on my 4 kW Onan RV generator failed. Fortunately I was just within warranty period.

David

 

[guy with a boat]

Peter, I can certainly understand your frustration, and I hope NL sends you a replacement part under warranty. That being said, I’m not sure NL was unreasonable in originally declining the replacement.

The gen is a couple of years old and was/is being installed by someone well outside the dealer/service network. The AVR is a part with an extremely low failure rate and was documented to have worked when tested before leaving the factory. While a natural early failure of the part is possible, most of us would agree that the failure could also have been caused by an errant tool shorting a connection or a wiring mistake that was since corrected.

Part of the philosophy of the NL design and build is that it can be serviced and repaired in remote locations. Their is some great DIY diagnostic information available online and there are simple tests and repairs for most malfunctions. Parts are available and the parts prices aren’t crazy like some other brands. The design avoids complicated electronic components when possible, to maximize reliability and servicability. One example is the manual frequency adjustment screw. They could use an electronic regulator but don’t. The electronic component would be great until it stops working in the middle of nowhere.

I’ve had other brand gens and now I have over 5K hours on two NLs. Based on my experiences, I would only choose NL if I were to need another gen regardless of my cruising grounds. The fact that we do pretty remote cruising and I have to be able to fix them myself means I wouldn’t consider anything else.

Hopefully you get the AVR cost recovered and you never need to test the warranty program again.

 

[Miz Trom]

There is no doubt Northern Lights makes a good generator. But customer service matters....

Although NL offers a warranty on parts, you apparently have to go through their technicians to get it. Sort of feels like the Deere lock-up on right-to-work engines.

Peter

It sounds an awful lot like the Deere issue for those of us who prefer to do the labor ourselves. And once you are no longer under warranty, it becomes a moot point. How long is the warranty on a new NL?

Cheers,
Mrs. Trombley

 

[mvweebles]

Peter, I can certainly understand your frustration, and I hope NL sends you a replacement part under warranty. That being said, I’m not sure NL was unreasonable in originally declining the replacement.

The gen is a couple of years old and was/is being installed by someone well outside the dealer/service network. The AVR is a part with an extremely low failure rate and was documented to have worked when tested before leaving the factory. While a natural early failure of the part is possible, most of us would agree that the failure could also have been caused by an errant tool shorting a connection or a wiring mistake that was since corrected.

Part of the philosophy of the NL design and build is that it can be serviced and repaired in remote locations. Their is some great DIY diagnostic information available online and there are simple tests and repairs for most malfunctions. Parts are available and the parts prices aren’t crazy like some other brands. The design avoids complicated electronic components when possible, to maximize reliability and servicability. One example is the manual frequency adjustment screw. They could use an electronic regulator but don’t. The electronic component would be great until it stops working in the middle of nowhere.

I’ve had other brand gens and now I have over 5K hours on two NLs. Based on my experiences, I would only choose NL if I were to need another gen regardless of my cruising grounds. The fact that we do pretty remote cruising and I have to be able to fix them myself means I wouldn’t consider anything else.

Hopefully you get the AVR cost recovered and you never need to test the warranty program again.

I understand your point. I woud emphasize the parts are still under warranty and there is nothing in their warranty that invalidates coverage if a non-NL Service Tech is used. Was an install error made? Possible, maybe even probable. But I would also add that the person who did the install has been a marine electrician for 15+ years including 10-years at Baja Naval, the premier yard in Ensenada where many SoCal-based Nordhavns are pulled.

NL's response has been extremely defensive - they have provided zero troubleshooting thus far but consumed hours of time finger-pointing to evade culpability. The strong undercurrent has been they believe their equipment is so good that they only way it can fail is due to install error. The only way around that is to pay them to do the install via their Service Center network - how convenient. I would encourage them to be more clear about that dependency in their warranty represenations.

Folks on TF tend to own older boats and generator replacement is a frequent topic. My message is that NL makes a good generator but if you plan to install or service with anything other than NL Service Center, you're flying more naked than you might think. If customer service is important to you, might want to consider an alternative brand with a more direct relationship with their customers.

Peter

 

[slowgoesit]

Peter, we are looking at a NL M673L3 6kw genny for times at anchor and when both AC's are needed, but what you are saying is having us re-think that decision. Unless NL provides you with a diagram of how each wire needs to "tucked" so as not to look like it's been "improperly", I feel they should stand by their product. It is still within warranty, newly installed, and DOA, ie; never generated power for you.

The tech who installed it was apparently smart enough to diagnose the problem and the failed component, so I am assuming he was smart enough to install it correctly in the first place.

NL feels that it was installed incorrectly, but won't offer any troubleshooting tips . . . . except to say "It wasn't us!"

Word of mouth experience can be the very best, or the absolutely very worst advertising that a company can have.

Our decision whether or not to go with the Northern Lights M673L3 we are contemplating probably rests on Northern Lights handling of your issue. Please keep us advised.
Scot