Diesel Fuel questions

[slowgoesit]

Yes and No...
Yes, trucks burn the same fuel at the same price as any other diesel road vehicle.
No, when a commercial truck buys their tags, they get hit with lots more taxes than just a regular diesel vehicle on the road. The heavier they are rated (more axles, bigger engines, longer trucks, etc.,) the more they pay. And, if they run more than a certain number of days in some states, they have to buy tags in the other states, which means more taxes to pay.

Which has absolutely nothing to do with the taxes added at the pump . . .

 

[stubones99]

Which has absolutely nothing to do with the taxes added at the pump . . .

FF said trucks pay more for fuel, when they don't... they pay more taxes, but the same rate as any other diesel powered vehicle.

 

[Circumnavigator]

Winter diesel --
We live aboard across the pier from the fuel station that fuels most large boats in Boston Harbor except the local tugs -- Coast Guard, Fire, Commuter, Whale Watch, etc. -- they do 15,000 gallons a day in non-Covid summers.


They switch to winter diesel around November 15. I know this because in really cold weather (sub 10F outside), Fintry's diesel fired boiler isn't happy atomizing really cold fuel and runs more reliably on winter diesel. The PDF linked above (very useful) says that this is refined differently to produce a lower pour point and less wax.


Jim

 

[Ski in NC]

I worked in a nuke plant 25yrs ago that had four 4000kW diesel gens as emergency backup. I was part of the team in charge of keeping those old beasts alive (Nordberg 16V, 13" bore, 16" stroke). On site we kept enough fuel for 7 days of operation. Something like 150-200,000 gallons of diesel. These things did not run very often, so the fuel just sat.

We had a chemist that was in charge of testing the fuel. I was not involved in that. I don't recall ever seeing the railcars coming in to drain the tanks and reload with new fuel. Or whether they used some sort of special long life fuel. Just know the chemist said the fuel in the tank was good. And she was cute!!!

Curious how hospitals and nuke plants handle this now. Both store a lot of fuel and don't go through much. Did a little little sniffing on the net and kept finding that "six months and it starts to degrade" thing. Sure there might be some degradation then, but I have seen diesel 7-10yrs old do just fine.

Anyone with recent experience in hospitals or nuke plants? They don't mess around with the reliability of their stored fuel, and I don't think they exchange it often, either.

 

[FF]

OTR trucks pay the same federal taxes , the states charge different amounts , varies by state.


The OTR trucks must pay each state for the fuel burned in each state , a paperwork hassle .

 

[FF]

The hassle with old diesel is always water , which is food for the stuff that grows in the tank, usually referred to as" bugs ", tho they are not.

The simple method of not having bugs is to have no water in the tank.

This used to be easy , even with water delivered in the fuel and condensation in the tank.

A sump that could be serviced solved all the problems with no hassle , but some effort.

The "best" sumps were seen on military boats where the tank was fixed to below the deck , so when the deck plate was lifted to fill the tank a bail, or handle was exposed.

The handle was fitted to the fill pipe tube with many small holes that could catch big stuff,like a rag.

At the bottom of the fill tube was a cup that fitted the bottom of the sump.

By lifting the fill tube the tube could be cleaned with the cup lifted to be dumped into a pail.

With patience a 50-50 mix of water and fuel could be cleaned , by just waiting as the water sunk to fill the cup.

No extra pumps , pipes, filters, wiring or valves is needed ,just gravity ,,,,,fuel floating on water is your friend.

If the tank is kept water free there will be no buildup of crap inside the tank to break loose and plug filters.

A good sump can be made up from an old style oil filter housing , with its mounting fitting fixed to the bottom of a tank.

I have never tried but I think an old style fuel filter smaller version of the oil filter (removable guts) could be plumbed to the tank bottom to catch water and be drained or pumped .

For the new build folks a Monel tank with a sump would not add much overall cost , and should end the hassle of fuel contamination , tho fuel will still need to be filtered.

 

[rgano]

kingthrob, if you are not using much fuel, don't carry much fuel. Ignore the condensation issue if the naysayers bring it up cuz it's just not an issue. With a 640 gallon capacity in my trawler and dwindling annual hours (why I finally sold it), I spent years carrying lass than a quarter of my capacity in four tanks. If I decided to go off cruising, well, I filled up, but why lug a ton of fuel around with the added amount of asphaltines continually collecting in the bottom of the tanks?

 

[garychurch]

Diesel should be good for a minimum of 2 years. Biggest problem is the potential for water. Keep tanks sealed and topped off will help minimize condensation snd therefore water which will accumulate in the bottom of the tanks. If so the water can promote bio growth. If this is a concern Bibor or other biocide is not a bad idea.

Other than that I don’t use any diesel additives. Check with Steve D’Antonio for his recommendations. The Key is putting clean diesel in you tanks. Even then use Racor filters and routinely replace them since no diesel is perfect.

Good luck.

 

[NCheaven]

My mechanic treats with a Stabilizer in the winter. Because of our heat and humidity on the Pamlico, I use Biobor JF, which is probably not necessary when I'm buying ValveTect from River Forest. Dowry Creek carries Valvetect, too. When I bought my boat I had a fuel filter clog up, possibly because the boat had not been used much in the two years before I bought it, or possibly because of a batch of bad fuel bring it down from Rhode Island. Either way, I should have had the fuel polished, which I ended up doing later that year - and it proved to be really nasty.

So, if the boat is new to you, especially if your boat hasn't been run much in the last few years, I'd recommend having the fuel polished and all new fuel filters installed before going very far away from the dock. I wish I had done that rather than have to switch to the back up primary filter 3 miles off of Cape May Inlet in 5 foot waves. If you don't already have a fuel vacuum pressure gauge, talk to your mechanic about that.

My routine is to change primary and secondary fuel filters every year, alternate the two primary filters every year, inspect Racor transparent bowls before every cruise (have never seen any water or debris!), peak at the fuel vacuum gauge every hour or so, use a "shock treatment" of Biobor JF every spring and use a stabilizer every winter. Overkill? Probably. Confident fuel condition? Sort of. That means that I keep looking for weaknesses in my approach to fuel, since dirty fuel seems to some TF friends to be the number 1 issue in getting stranded.

Lastly, over the years since buying my boat, I've read as much as I can read about fuel, oil, etc., and Parker, maker of Racor, has some great information on their web site on fuel filters, micron sizing, etc. With 2005 Volvo turbo engine - not common rail - 10 microns seems to be the right choice both primary and secondary filters. Your engine manual is the first choice to check, but Parker/Racor and some boating mags are worth checking, too.

Enjoy Albemarle and Pamlico sounds and tributaries - small trawler heaven!

 

[MichaelD]

Additives

Based on very strong recommendations from some diesel experts, North Harbor Diesel in Anacortes Wa, I use Stanadyne PF with every tank.

 

[catalinajack]

Pretty sure (not certain) Steve D recommends the Standyne product.

Diesel should be good for a minimum of 2 years. Biggest problem is the potential for water. Keep tanks sealed and topped off will help minimize condensation snd therefore water which will accumulate in the bottom of the tanks. If so the water can promote bio growth. If this is a concern Bibor or other biocide is not a bad idea.

Other than that I don’t use any diesel additives. Check with Steve D’Antonio for his recommendations. The Key is putting clean diesel in you tanks. Even then use Racor filters and routinely replace them since no diesel is perfect.

Good luck.

 

[mvweebles]

My recollection is Steve d is very careful with direct endorsements, rather he recommends a type of fuel conditioner that includes stanadyne and stabil. These tend to precipitate out water for capture in racor vs emulsify water to be burned.

I have used stanadyne for 25+ years when Diamond Diesel in Oakland CA recommended it after they rebuilt my 4.108 injector pump to be more accepting of low Sulphur fuels. Since then, a couple mechanics that I hold in high regard, and Bob Senter of Northern Lights have also recommended Stanadyne.

I have not seen recommendations for constant and prophylactic use of Biobor algeacide products. My understanding is these are a curative agent and should be used to solve a problem. While they likely provide no harm, they do not improve fuel stability nor deal with small amounts of water in fuel, the number one culprit of diesel fuel problems (and the cause of diesel critters)

I am not an expert on diesel, but have had the pleasure to know several. Based on that, I use stanadyne

Peter

 

[psneeld]

BioborJF®, the Worldwide Standard Since 1965, is a low-cost preventativemaintenance additive to protect your investment, and in both new and usedfuel tanks. Plus prevents rust and corrosion while eliminating the need forexpensive fuel polishing. Constant use of BioborJF®will keep fuel filters clean,protect rubber fuel system components, lowering maintenance costs whileimproving fuel effectively.BioborJF®also adds lubricity to all low sulfur fuels that have been mandated bythe EPA. The addition of BioborJF®to fuel, brings the lubricity in the fuelup to ASTM standards which again allows increased fuel efficiency.


https://www.biobor.com/Biobor-Resources/spec-sheets/SPEC-BioborJF-NEW.pdf

 

[mvweebles]

BioborJF[emoji2400], the Worldwide Standard Since 1965, is a low-cost preventativemaintenance additive to protect your investment, and in both new and usedfuel tanks. Plus prevents rust and corrosion while eliminating the need forexpensive fuel polishing. Constant use of BioborJF[emoji2400]will keep fuel filters clean,protect rubber fuel system components, lowering maintenance costs whileimproving fuel effectively.BioborJF[emoji2400]also adds lubricity to all low sulfur fuels that have been mandated bythe EPA. The addition of BioborJF[emoji2400]to fuel, brings the lubricity in the fuelup to ASTM standards which again allows increased fuel efficiency.


https://www.biobor.com/Biobor-Resources/spec-sheets/SPEC-BioborJF-NEW.pdf

Sounds a lot like Marvel Mystery Oil plus biocide. If you have water in your fuel tanks, it will keep critters from forming.

I didn't detect any claims about preventing asphaltines from precipitating out, or about keeping water from accumulating in the first place.

 

[psneeld]

They all can have "claims"....


https://www.hydrocarbonprocessing.c...uel-performance-additive-the-right-way-part-1



Nearly all diesel fuel additive suppliers make generic product claims that their additives will “Yield better fuel economy,” “Increase engine power,” “Reduce smoke,” “Increase fuel lubricity,” “Reduce system deposits,” “Lower maintenance costs,” “Save money,” etc. Unfortunately for the additive purchaser, there is no global “watchdog group” or oversight mechanism to monitor and verify diesel fuel additive product claims.
Takeaways

No organization oversees the performance claims and marketing of diesel fuel additives. This article (and the subsequent Part 2) will assist the additive buyer in sourcing the best performance additives for diesel-powered equipment.

 

[mvweebles]

They all can have "claims"....


https://www.hydrocarbonprocessing.c...uel-performance-additive-the-right-way-part-1



Nearly all diesel fuel additive suppliers make generic product claims that their additives will “Yield better fuel economy,” “Increase engine power,” “Reduce smoke,” “Increase fuel lubricity,” “Reduce system deposits,” “Lower maintenance costs,” “Save money,” etc. Unfortunately for the additive purchaser, there is no global “watchdog group” or oversight mechanism to monitor and verify diesel fuel additive product claims.
Takeaways

No organization oversees the performance claims and marketing of diesel fuel additives. This article (and the subsequent Part 2) will assist the additive buyer in sourcing the best performance additives for diesel-powered equipment.

I don't disagree. Stanadyne is made by a very reputable builder of injection pumps. And while I don't pretend to understand the exact chemistry, there are unbiased people who do (Steve D being one I trust) and recommend Stanadyne type formulations for longer term storage of fuel. If you go through fuel quickly, no additive needed.

All I can say is it's my approach to long term storage of fuel, which is a concern for me with over 400 gals and an engine that burns 1-1/4 gph.

Peter

 

[psneeld]

Well...plenty of trusted mechs and captains in Florida many years ago laughed at me on the first diesel I owned and grew a tank full of goo.


The all recommended BioborJr to prevent biologic growth. Not for any other reason and I tend to agree (like Caterpillar) that even the best additives are only needed if your fuel is lacking.


Biocide is the one thing that seems to be an issue out of the pump fuel has issues with unless (and I can't say for sure) something like Valvetech is added at the staion/pump level.

 

[mvweebles]

Two-part article from Steve D on diesel additives. Its been a few years since I read them - about 3-years ago when I was trying to figure out what to do with a couple hundred gallons of 12+ year-old diesel in my tanks. Amazingly, I did not have critters (or at least they never revolted during my 100-hours of run-time between sea trials and trip to Mexico). I credit that to San Francisco's relatively dry and consistent climate. I do not expect such innocuous results once the boat is relocated in Florida.

https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/diesel-fuel-additives-part-i/
https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/diesel-fuel-additives-part-ii/

Steve goes through the science in his typically detailed fashion.

EDIT - Steve talks about strolling an industry boat-show type event and talking to 22 diesel additive manufacturers. He asked them all the same question - only three could give an accurate answer - Valvtech, Stanadyne, and StaBil. Clearly, there is a lot of smoke/mirrors in the additive market.

Peter

 

[bayview]

Running diesels in CA for 15 years with a very low fuel use engine and old fuel and high HP twins in FL for 17 and never used any additives. IMO chemicals don't solve most problems

 

[catalinajack]

Marvel Mystery Oil DECREASES lubricity. Not good.

Sounds a lot like Marvel Mystery Oil plus biocide. If you have water in your fuel tanks, it will keep critters from forming.

I didn't detect any claims about preventing asphaltines from precipitating out, or about keeping water from accumulating in the first place.

 

[mvweebles]

Marvel Mystery Oil DECREASES lubricity. Not good.

Interesting - I seem to recall the venerable Bob Smith of FL fame was a proponent of MMO. I haven't used it since I was young trying to keep an old 1963 Ford F250 with a 292 alive - she had a habit of valves sticking creating a James-Bond-esque smoke screen in her wake. Given "oil" is in the name, one would think it increases lubricity. Go figure.

BTW - the second part of Steve D's article discusses lubricity at length. Sounds like more of a concern for modern common rail engines.

Peter

 

[rslifkin]

Clearly, there is a lot of smoke/mirrors in the additive market.

Absolutely. But that doesn't inherently mean the rest of the additives are useless (although some may be). It just means the manufacturer's thoughts on what it's good for are a bit less than accurate. But in some cases, people have determined good uses for them.



Such as Marvel Mystery Oil. I don't know if I'd put it in fuel, but in small quantities in oil, it does seem to have an ability to remove that light brown varnish that some engines develop in the oil system. And it makes good cutting oil for drilling and such (and it smells good!) The stuff definitely is a lubricant, being a thin oil. But it's very thin, so I don't know if it's actually much more slippery than diesel fuel. I can't see it being less slippery though.

 

[Todd727]

Water laying under fuel is bad from a bacterial growth issue as well as shutting down your engine in the worst sea conditions. Keep extra filters and learn how to change them.
Diesel is a #2 fuel. Heating oil is a #2 fuel with sulfur left in. Diesel now a days has the sulfur removed and lubricants added. Sulfur was the lubricant.
Try to use old fuel and keep fresh fuel.
Greg

Sulfur isn't a lubricant. However, the refining process of removing the sulfur also removes the lubricity components.

 

[catalinajack]

Yes, Bob Smith was indeed a proponent. Using it didn't matter 30 years ago when the high sulphur fuel had an excess of lubricity.

Interesting - I seem to recall the venerable Bob Smith of FL fame was a proponent of MMO. I haven't used it since I was young trying to keep an old 1963 Ford F250 with a 292 alive - she had a habit of valves sticking creating a James-Bond-esque smoke screen in her wake. Given "oil" is in the name, one would think it increases lubricity. Go figure.

BTW - the second part of Steve D's article discusses lubricity at length. Sounds like more of a concern for modern common rail engines.

Peter

 

[Simi 60]

So the question I have after reading all these US centric points is, why does the US sell such poor quality fuel?

 

[bayview]

Politics

 

[AKDoug]

So the question I have after reading all these US centric points is, why does the US sell such poor quality fuel?

Places that sell a lot of fuel have "fresher" fuel, places where it sits in the tank (especially in a marine environment) have fuel with the same issues as fuel that sits in your boat tanks.

Highway fueling stations refuel their tanks when they get low, marine fueling stations frequently get their fuel topped off before it draws down far enough to refresh the fuel in the tank.

Remote places get their fuel by barge or truck, and it sits longer before being sold.

 

[Simi 60]

Places that sell a lot of fuel have "fresher" fuel, places where it sits in the tank (especially in a marine environment) have fuel with the same issues as fuel that sits in your boat tanks.
.

Australia has a small population, fuel docks can sit for days without a customer and we boat near a capital city.
I have only ever bought my boat diesel on the water where it sits in tanks.
I have never had any issues with fuel sitting in my boat tanks.
No additives used

 

[mvweebles]

My hunch is vast majority of fuel issues are due to water getting into fuel tanks, not bad fuel. Specifically, an errant o-ring on the filler cap. I doubt condensation is a big issue, but poor routing and allowing intrusion. Same can happen with the tanker truck that delivers the fuel to the fuel dock.

30+ years ago, underground tanks were more susceptible to corrosion, both moisture and cathodic. Regulations and threat of significant fines have remediated, at least in US and most modern countries.

There are a lot fewer fuel related issues now than 20 years ago. But there are still a lot of stories and legends around fuel problems - of crud getting stirred up as you're crossing a bar. Not saying it can't happen, just saying I've don't know anyone who has had it happen.

In last 20 years, I have first hand knowledge of exactly one engine that stopped due to a fuel related issue - a friend's 2014 Horizon 52 here in Florida had a load of critters in his port tank - the sunny/warm side of his boat (of that makes a difference).

 

[Lepke]

So the question I have after reading all these US centric points is, why does the US sell such poor quality fuel?

The EPA. Maybe the fuel in Australia has a better formula. Before the EPA refiners in the US were formulating fuel to give the best power, stability, and consistency rather than worrying about what comes out of the exhaust. Most of you are too young to have burned pre-EPA fuel. Too Bad. I never used an additive in those days. Fuel could sit for years. Now I use an additive every fueling. The fuel today is crap. Do additives make a better burn? Mine gives me 6%+ better mileage than without it. I never have a fuel issue and my Racors have 2 micron elements.
Oh, and so much sulfur has been removed from fuel, farmers with high yields have to add sulfur to their fertilizer. It use to come free in the air.