Disputing Marina Fees

[catalinajack]

It seems a lot of marine technicians do not understand or how to perform troubleshooting. It appears the troubleshooting is simply throwing parts at an issue until they find what fixes it. This costs you a lot of $$$ Sad the industry has stooped to this.

So, here's my story. Before leaving Maryland last May to do the Loop I had a reputable yard replace the damper plates on my two Lehman's. The engines had 5,300 hours and there was no record of them ever having been replaced. Given that American Diesel suggests that the service life of damper plates is 2,500 hours, I did some preventive maintenance.

Well, while going thru the eight stair-step locks in Ottawa, a drivesaver fractured and I lost port propulsion, in the locks. That day I was thankful for having twins. I found two of the four flange mounting bolts in the bilge. The other two were only finger tight. The mechanic made two mistakes. He didn't tighten the bolts, reused old, tired bolts, and not Loctite. It cost me $1,300 for the repair plus seven days transient docking. I was lucky it happened in a populated area and not somewhere in the boondocks of the Georgian Bay. I was able to run 18 miles on one engine to a good marina.

When I get back to my home marina next May, I will be having a conversation with the yard manager. However, I expect I will get nothing but "not me's".

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

When I get back to my home marina next May, I will be having a conversation with the yard manager. However, I expect I will get nothing but "not me's".

I wouldn't wait. Send them a copy of the bill and demand payment.

 

[Seevee]

We've gotten lazy in how we deal with some issues and using ineffective means. At this point, I'd recommend making an appointment to meet with the ultimate decision maker, whether the marina manager or the owner or whomever. There is still a huge benefit to sitting down face to face, calmly and relaxed, and having a discussion. This allows you also to put it in proper context.

I'd approach like this.

Thank you for meeting with me today. I want to start by saying I've been here four years and very much enjoyed it and generally been very happy with the service. However, there are two instances which I do feel haven't been up to your normal standards. Then I'd outline the two you did above and I'd be prepared if and when they asked what you were seeking or thought would be fair with a truly fair number. Keep in mind they did spend time and did the work, just not right work. In such cases I often find 50% reduction of those charges to be appropriate. It's sharing of the loss. Is it fair? Should you get everything back? I can argue you should but seeking such isn't conducive to a fair resolution and more likely to get you nothing.

Understand as you go in, it's you who is seeking something, who is asking for an accommodation. They don't have to do anything. That's why I'd always approach it as one asking for their help rather than telling them what they must do. It's also why I suggest face to face. You can more easily come across as a reasonable man and they are far more likely face to face to want to make you happy. Easy to say "no" by email or phone. Far more difficult in a face to face discussion.

In the circumstances, I couldn't do face to face, I'd try for webcam but if that wasn't possible, go to phone and only with the one capable of making the decision. Still phone misses all the subtleties of expression. I use email after discussion to confirm my understanding of what was agreed upon.

Now, when I will use email or mail is when I am unable to make contact and then I do a thorough email covering all aspects and matters and my inability to reach the individual. I make it very complete though.

I see young people try to handle disputes by text message and inevitably each volley becomes a little uglier and soon it deteriorates into a terminal fight.

BandB,

So, they had time involved. And it was by an incompetent person that simply wasted your time and you think 50% payment on a job that has a negative value is fair???

I'd be nice, but politely explain that I got nothing and suffered time and inconvenience. I might start by asking, "how to you intend to make me whole?" before the next step.

Depending on his reaction, I'd make my next move. If the vendor does nothing after trying to solve the problem my next step would be:

You charge me NOTHING, and give me an additional $xxx for my inconvenience and time wasted on getting nothing done and time lost. And I won't take you to court and sue you for much more.

He REALLY should fix the problem at fair value, and reimburse me for time and opportunity lost. That would be the honorable thing to do.

If he tried to weasel out of things, I would make my intentions know and file a small claims action, naming him, the marina and the mechanic.

Then I'd hope he would come to the table to fix things right.

Personally, I would not want to continue with the suit, because no one wins, especially if lawyers get involved. However, one could recover more than nothing.

Fortunately, I've never been to court with a marine issue. I've had a few when I failed to use my contract that should have gone to court.

The goal, however, is to prevent this incompetence.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

BandB,

So, they had time involved. And it was by an incompetent person that simply wasted your time and you think 50% payment on a job that has a negative value is fair???

I'd be nice, but politely explain that I got nothing and suffered time and inconvenience. I might start by asking, "how to you intend to make me whole?" before the next step.

Depending on his reaction, I'd make my next move. If the vendor does nothing after trying to solve the problem my next step would be:

You charge me NOTHING, and give me an additional $xxx for my inconvenience and time wasted on getting nothing done and time lost. And I won't take you to court and sue you for much more.

He REALLY should fix the problem at fair value, and reimburse me for time and opportunity lost. That would be the honorable thing to do.

If he tried to weasel out of things, I would make my intentions know and file a small claims action, naming him, the marina and the mechanic.

Then I'd hope he would come to the table to fix things right.

Personally, I would not want to continue with the suit, because no one wins, especially if lawyers get involved. However, one could recover more than nothing.

Fortunately, I've never been to court with a marine issue. I've had a few when I failed to use my contract that should have gone to court.

The goal, however, is to prevent this incompetence.

Well stated and lines up with my feelings.

In most small claims, depending on the State, lawyers are not permitted. You represent yourself and the marina/owner represents themselves.

Great Post!!

 

[BruceK]

There is an old adage: "You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar".
"Horses for Courses",always, but it really matters how you go about resolving a dispute like Angus has. You can lose the chance of a successful resolution in the first few seconds if you go about it the wrong way. Having reading Angus`s posts for several years, I`m sure he will choose a sensible in person approach, even if he has to grit his teeth a little to do it.

 

[BandB]

Well stated and lines up with my feelings.

In most small claims, depending on the State, lawyers are not permitted. You represent yourself and the marina/owner represents themselves.

Great Post!!

And small claims in situations like this are generally impossible to win. You need an expert to write or testify that the work they did perform was wrong. Just saying there was more work required doesn't prove that. Not easy to find an expert to testify such in a small claims court especially if they didn't see the boat early in the process. That's why I suggest that the ultimate solution will be a compromise of some sort. Both parties will feel better than nothing but like they still deserved more.

 

[Seevee]

And small claims in situations like this are generally impossible to win. You need an expert to write or testify that the work they did perform was wrong. Just saying there was more work required doesn't prove that. Not easy to find an expert to testify such in a small claims court especially if they didn't see the boat early in the process. That's why I suggest that the ultimate solution will be a compromise of some sort. Both parties will feel better than nothing but like they still deserved more.

BandB,

Agreed, a settlement is probably easier, especially with small dollars. But in this case there's probably enough dollars to warrant a few hour fighting it, IF that's the only recourse. Small claims is pretty easy, but a written agreement PRIOR to work being done is really a key point.

But, it's pretty easy to prove: I hired him to do X, he did not do X, and subpoena the employees that did the work and you'd probably win.

I don't go to court anymore (usually) but back when I had a lot going on, business, real estate deals, etc., I did. I never lost a case and collected on better than half of them. But, always had an agreement on what was to be done, sold, bought, etc.

Also, there's an argument to never have a job done on time and materials. If there are unknowns, decide on how much to inspect and come up with a solid quote, and put limits on things. Again, the understandings need to be done prior to work.

 

[angus99]

Folks, I really appreciate the well-considered advice. I do need to clarify a couple of points. First, the marina in question is 800 miles from where I live so a face-to-face—by far my preferred approach—is not realistic. I also strongly believe in a civil, thoughtful, non-threatening approach. Shooting from the hip never got me anywhere. The owner—who will ultimately decide this issue—can be calm and reasonable or volcanic bordering on abusive. It all depends on what else is going on that day. (The one time he pulled that with me I brought him up short and it hasn’t happened again.) I did call again yesterday, but only got voicemail. I’ll try again today.

I also need to clarify that, after finally locating the itemized statement, I see that the marina had already deducted a couple hours of labor for the three gearbox removals. This represents a good faith effort on their part—but also makes it unlikely they’ll budge further on what are still excessive charges for that work. So, I’ll likely cave on that one while pursuing the refrigerator “repair,” which is still an egregious overcharge in my view.

This has been a great discussion. I’d like to hear more about how others establish expectations with boatyards on the front end—especially if you are able to negotiate work for a flat fee vs time and materials. The few boatyards I’ve dealt with adamantly refuse this arrangement. If you’ve been successful with this approach, how do you think it ultimately affects out-of-pocket? Does it ever affect the quality of work?

 

[BandB]

This has been a great discussion. I’d like to hear more about how others establish expectations with boatyards on the front end—especially if you are able to negotiate work for a flat fee vs time and materials. The few boatyards I’ve dealt with adamantly refuse this arrangement. If you’ve been successful with this approach, how do you think it ultimately affects out-of-pocket? Does it ever affect the quality of work?

There's some work that adapts very well to flat fee pricing, although even it may often entail change orders along the way. Our yard provides "not to exceed" estimates on all work just like auto shops are required to do in many states. I don't see work like that you had done being easy to do on a per job basis however as there are too many unknowns going in. The problem ultimately was not the method of charging but the quality of work.

Flat rate pricing has some disadvantages to the consumer. First, a smart yard is going to pad the rate and it will on average cost more. Second, there's still nothing preventing discovering a need for additional work and contacting you and getting you to sign off on the additional charge. Third, just as time and materials runs into the possibility of padding time, flat charges runs into the possibility of taking short cuts or not doing everything that should be done.

Ultimately, the solution is a good working relationship and trust and the ability to resolve any issues amicably.

 

[wwestman]

My yard goal has always been to not exceed twice the original estimate and twice the time needed to finish. Usually I am within my goal.

 

[angus99]

I was finally able to reach a decision-maker at the marina and I’m very pleased with the outcome. I accepted their modest adjustment on the gearbox removals—despite the fact that the bill was still high. They completely retracted the refrigerator billing (it was actually $520) which I thought was more than fair.

My three takeaways: 1) there’s no substitute for ethics and treating people respectfully in business . . . as in life; 2). never agree to have work done without making expectations clear on the front end; 3) never authorize work to be performed when you’re in a rush or pre-occupied.

Thanks again for the great discussion and good advice on this.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

Glad it worked out. Your take-a-ways are spot on.

We arm chair lawyers can now take a break....

 

[BandB]

I was finally able to reach a decision-maker at the marina and I’m very pleased with the outcome. I accepted their modest adjustment on the gearbox removals—despite the fact that the bill was still high. They completely retracted the refrigerator billing (it was actually $520) which I thought was more than fair.

My three takeaways: 1) there’s no substitute for ethics and treating people respectfully in business . . . as in life; 2). never agree to have work done without making expectations clear on the front end; 3) never authorize work to be performed when you’re in a rush or pre-occupied.

Thanks again for the great discussion and good advice on this.

Sounds like a reasonable solution reached all the way around with just moderate discussion of the issues. They accepted a portion, you decided you could live with a portion. No winner, no loser, just fairness.

 

[DDW]

Another takeaway might be don't pay the bill till you are happy.

Yards have their own sets of problems, but discounting bad work shouldn't be one of them. Around here they are charging $85 - $120/hr. The guy actually doing the work is unlikely to be getting more than $20/hr. Sure there's burdened overhead and all that. But if the yard collected $500 for 5 hours work in which their direct cost was $100, then a 50% discount "to share the loss" isn't a loss at all for them. They still made $150 on lousy work. Part of the discrepancy over what they pay and what they charge is to cover "comebacks", the term used to describe work that was not satisfactory. It is ironic that the yard with the largest percentage of comebacks must charge the largest premium over labor costs to stay in business.

It isn't just direct labor either, there are charge-throughs. I had my mast stepped in a well respected Chesapeake yard, and after I had gone found the crane was charged through at more than $1200. It had been there less than an hour. The yard had insisted on using this particular crane service, I was not allowed to contract one myself. After receiving the bill I called every crane service in the area and asked for a quote. None came any higher than $500, which was already more than what I had payed previously. They eventually discounted it to $700, and I'm sure still made money on it. The only reason they discounted it was they had not been paid, and I had already left. Many yards will hold your boat hostage until you pay their unreasonable bill.

I've found less than 1 in 5 yards does good work, less than that for a reasonable price. I've found that the quality of the work has no relationship to price. If you are staying in the area you can move about till you find that one good yard, but as a transient you are at their mercy, and I suspect many of them know that.

 

[BandB]

Another takeaway might be don't pay the bill till you are happy.

Yards have their own sets of problems, but discounting bad work shouldn't be one of them. Around here they are charging $85 - $120/hr. The guy actually doing the work is unlikely to be getting more than $20/hr. Sure there's burdened overhead and all that. But if the yard collected $500 for 5 hours work in which their direct cost was $100, then a 50% discount "to share the loss" isn't a loss at all for them. They still made $150 on lousy work. Part of the discrepancy over what they pay and what they charge is to cover "comebacks", the term used to describe work that was not satisfactory. It is ironic that the yard with the largest percentage of comebacks must charge the largest premium over labor costs to stay in business.

It isn't just direct labor either, there are charge-throughs. I had my mast stepped in a well respected Chesapeake yard, and after I had gone found the crane was charged through at more than $1200. It had been there less than an hour. The yard had insisted on using this particular crane service, I was not allowed to contract one myself. After receiving the bill I called every crane service in the area and asked for a quote. None came any higher than $500, which was already more than what I had payed previously. They eventually discounted it to $700, and I'm sure still made money on it. The only reason they discounted it was they had not been paid, and I had already left. Many yards will hold your boat hostage until you pay their unreasonable bill.

I've found less than 1 in 5 yards does good work, less than that for a reasonable price. I've found that the quality of the work has no relationship to price. If you are staying in the area you can move about till you find that one good yard, but as a transient you are at their mercy, and I suspect many of them know that.

If you're finding only 1 in 5 does good work, you need to take a fresh look at how you select yards. As to reasonable price, that might be influencing your selection too greatly and who can say what is reasonable. I know we pay more than some but we never have problems with the work done.

It is more difficult when you're a transient but there are other boaters around and boaters will talk. Many will not be very helpful in what they say but others will be.

I'm very familiar with the costing techniques and the profits of yards and while the good ones are profitable, very few are what I'd call highly profitable. With some it's due to their own mismanagement but with others it's due to the market. Florida yards do better than most others because they don't have the severe seasonality. Northern yards depend on winter preparation and storage and preparing in the spring but they still have months without work to keep their staff busy. Some have strategies to live with that. However, I know one in a major boating market that can't keep young diesel mechanics as they go down the road to the truck shop.

 

[BandB]

Another takeaway might be don't pay the bill till you are happy.

.

As you indicate, not often an option and the yard does have a lien on your boat.

 

[DDW]

If you're finding only 1 in 5 does good work, you need to take a fresh look at how you select yards. As to reasonable price, that might be influencing your selection too greatly and who can say what is reasonable. I know we pay more than some but we never have problems with the work done.

It is more difficult when you're a transient but there are other boaters around and boaters will talk. Many will not be very helpful in what they say but others will be.

I was a transient all the way down the east coast. I was very careful about my choice of yards, asking anyone who would talk about who they would recommend and why. I asked only after quality and care, not price. I was truly happy with only one, that being Hinckleys in Stuart. A couple of others did marginally acceptable work at a high price. Still others I had to watch the work so closely I would have put less time into it doing the work myself. What I learned in each location was of no use, as the next time I would be somewhere new.

As I said, there was not a relationship between price and quality. Some of the best quality at a low price, some of the worst at a high price.

I understand the plight of the yard manager, who must depend on yard personnel who are not typically paid well. Overhead is high and business is affected by seasons, weather, and economy. A phenomenon I ran into more than once was a manager who knew exactly what to do and how to do it, but because of that very fact had been promoted into management, the people actually sent to do the work were learning on the job - in several cases not very fast, either.

 

[BruceK]

Well done Ian. "Trading concessions", I think.
I just accepted a Yard error. Doing some repairs I wanted an antifoul done,made a point of emailing them what I use. They used something else, inferior, not as long lived, possibly incompatible but I hope not. I`d collected the boat even before getting the bill, it told me what they used. Paid it anyway,and told them I was disappointed. If it proves incompatible they`ll get asked to redo it,and probably will. Otherwise,just part of life`s rich pageant.
Note: A lien requires possession. Return the boat = no lien. Here anyway.

 

[BandB]

I was a transient all the way down the east coast. I was very careful about my choice of yards, asking anyone who would talk about who they would recommend and why. I asked only after quality and care, not price. I was truly happy with only one, that being Hinckleys in Stuart. A couple of others did marginally acceptable work at a high price. Still others I had to watch the work so closely I would have put less time into it doing the work myself. What I learned in each location was of no use, as the next time I would be somewhere new.

I do look for manufacturer certifications and have found those can sometimes provide a clue.

Not surprised you were happy with Hinckley.

 

[angus99]

Well done Ian. "Trading concessions", I think.
I just accepted a Yard error. Doing some repairs I wanted an antifoul done,made a point of emailing them what I use. They used something else, inferior, not as long lived, possibly incompatible but I hope not. I`d collected the boat even before getting the bill, it told me what they used. Paid it anyway,and told them I was disappointed. If it proves incompatible they`ll get asked to redo it,and probably will. Otherwise,just part of life`s rich pageant.
Note: A lien requires possession. Return the boat = no lien. Here anyway.

Thanks, Bruce. I had a similar experience with the last bottom job at a different yard. I asked for a specific color; they used what they had on the shelf. They ended up putting an extra coat or two of the right color on gratis. Hope yours turns out well. “Life’s rich pageant”: the perfect metaphor for dealing with boatyards. .

 

[twistedtree]

I understand the plight of the yard manager, who must depend on yard personnel who are not typically paid well. Overhead is high and business is affected by seasons, weather, and economy. A phenomenon I ran into more than once was a manager who knew exactly what to do and how to do it, but because of that very fact had been promoted into management, the people actually sent to do the work were learning on the job - in several cases not very fast, either.

That's why we call it work. Yes, it's hard, and yes, it's a balancing act. But smart people figure it out.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

As you indicate, not often an option and the yard does have a lien on your boat.

In that case you take it to court.

 

[Ex Sailor]

In that case you take it to court.

aannddd ... that will be the end of your stay at the marina

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

aannddd ... that will be the end of your stay at the marina

Maybe so, but what is better? Getting what you paid for or staying at the marina?

I would leave anyway and find another marina who respects me and the money I will spend there.

 

[O C Diver]

If I had the troubles you all seem to have, I'd probably sell my boat. Admittedly, I have a great relationship with my boatyard. While I'm not familiar with what other people do, I couldn't imagine not being in the boatyard most every day to see how things are progressing. While someone may not have the time to spend the whole day in the yard, a couple of hours each day to see what's being done would probably make a huge difference. As an example, changed bottom paint this fall which necessitated removing most of the original paint and ordering the new. While there weren't any issues, I saw the removal of the old over a few days, so that I knew it was satisfactorily done, and saw the new paint applied on two days, so I knew 2 coats were applied. Went to the owner and specified the paint I wanted, which he ordered. Checked back a couple days later to see if the paint had come in. Moved the paint to my boat area so that it wouldn't get misplaced or accidentally sold. Yes, I know I'm OCD, but rarely disappointed.

The other part is that I decide what I will let the yard do versus doing it myself or bringing in an outside contractor. There's no way I would let them touch my electronics, they would probably decline anyway. While I do it all myself, if I were going to use an outside contractor, it would be me interviewing them and determining what they will do. I might still have to pay a fee to the boatyard for bringing in the outside contractor (has never happened in the past), but I need control over the work being done and direct accountability.

While you might think the yard loathes me cause I'm always there, it actually works well, and there's never issues with the yard wondering what I want. I'm the same way with house remodeling projects. Show up each day, stay out of the way, don't nitpick, but make sure things are beginning done to my satisfaction.

Ted

 

[foggysail]

If I had the troubles you all seem to have, I'd probably sell my boat. Ted

 

[DDW]

If I had the troubles you all seem to have, I'd probably sell my boat. Admittedly, I have a great relationship with my boatyard. While I'm not familiar with what other people do, I couldn't imagine not being in the boatyard most every day to see how things are progressing. While someone may not have the time to spend the whole day in the yard, a couple of hours each day to see what's being done would probably make a huge difference.

If you live close to your boat, you can search till you find a yard you like, and supervise them closely. If you live 1000 or 3000 miles from your boat, and it is in a different location every year, that is much more difficult. You fly to the location, rent a car, rent a hotel room while you are supervising their work. Might as well do it 8 hours a day since you've nothing else to do. Maybe, might as well do it yourself? Not a matter of just popping around the corner for an hour or two.

Until this August, my sailboat was never closer than 1000 miles from home, for 10 years. In a different location each season, always new to me. I eventually resigned to doing nearly everything myself - it was either that, or pay a lot to get something done, and then redo it myself properly anyway.

 

[O C Diver]

If you live close to your boat, you can search till you find a yard you like, and supervise them closely. If you live 1000 or 3000 miles from your boat, and it is in a different location every year, that is much more difficult. You fly to the location, rent a car, rent a hotel room while you are supervising their work. Might as well do it 8 hours a day since you've nothing else to do. Maybe, might as well do it yourself? Not a matter of just popping around the corner for an hour or two.

Until this August, my sailboat was never closer than 1000 miles from home, for 10 years. In a different location each season, always new to me. I eventually resigned to doing nearly everything myself - it was either that, or pay a lot to get something done, and then redo it myself properly anyway.

I can totally understand and appreciate your situation. Couldn't have a boat in that situation.

Ted

 

[BandB]

I can totally understand and appreciate your situation. Couldn't have a boat in that situation.

Ted

That's why many choose to use managers of some sort when their boat is distant from them. I am friends with owners of management companies in South Florida and know that many of their users would just not have the work done right and on time without using them to do regular follow up and to make sure the completed work has been done right. Perhaps you find a local captain in the area in which the boat is located.

I realize this is added cost but so is not having the boat ready when you return though incomplete work, work done poorly, or just issues that arose while it was sitting.

While checking on the work as it takes place is preferable, if that was impossible, I'd at least want to check as soon as they say it's complete so that I'm not left complaining two months later.

Now, one thing to keep in perspective on this thread is that the yard and the boat owner were able to resolve the issues to their satisfaction. Perhaps not to the satisfaction of some forum members, but that's not really relevant.

 

[foreverunderway]

If you have already paid the bill and left, I doubt you will have much luck getting a refund.
If the boat is still there, you will need backup support in the form of an email or letter from the refer company's tech support and some acknowledgment from the head mechanic, preferably on paper, that one of the trany jobs was unnecessary. Produce the old, functioning, refer fan as well.

Most marina/boat yards rely on repeat business so I wouldn't let them know you have no intention of returning. Predicate your request for the bill reduction on the idea they may get a shot at getting their money back from you in the future.
I wish you luck, but unfortunately, it seems that there are few, if any, reputable, honest, capable and knowledgeable marine repair people left anywhere in North America or the Caribbean, these days.
Few even understand the equipment they work on and just change parts until they get lucky, charging you for all their unnecessary time and the unnecessary parts.
We went through 5 air conditioning techs and several thousand dollars before becoming so fed up that we decided to break down and buy the tools and go for it ourselves. Five different techs from 5 different companies had various opinions about our problem, from the system was too old (of course, they suggested that they replace it at a 'very good' price) to tapping a solenoid with a hammer on start-up.
It ended up being a hole in the RFD which we found in about 5 minutes. As we so rarely needed refer/ac repairs, I had avoided buying and carrying around the necessary tools (gauges, gas bottles, vacuum pump, etc) aboard for many years, but finally threw up our hands and bit the bullet.
Haven't spent a dime on refer/ac techs since.