Double Enders

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Irrespective of the hull's aft configurement.

For handling head seas: Bow's prow-angle [i.e. its considerably increasing outward sweep], from halfway above the waterline and ending at gunnel, is what enables boat to stay afloat by not nose diving as it rides inward to and upward upon large waves,
 
Practically speaking, a rounded butt on a boat doesn't make much sense. Storage is pinched and dinghy boarding is compromised.

I've read tens of thousands of posts on this forum. One recent thread comes to mind about how loose furniture doesn't really need to be secured because no one plans to be in conditions that would cause it to shift. Another thread discussed the merits of reducing fuel tankage to increase water tankage - no need for fuel, not venturing too far, certainly no further than a 6-12 hour weather window forecast.

My takeaway? For this crowd, following sea abilities is largely a theoretical discussion - a table-top exercise. I've been in decent following seas in my boat and in, say, a N46. Both boats moved around a lot and neither felt like it was on rails. But I dunno. Most of my miles are on deliveries, and thus most of my miles are into weather. Following seas were relatively rare for me so I actually don't have a ton of experience.

The best and perhaps only reason to own a double ended boat is they look cool. You can justify it all you want, but when it comes down to brass tacks, they just look great. So much of boat ownership is personal expression. There has to be a cool factor. When you walk down the dock with your buddy, ability to point and say "thar - that's my boat!"

Cool factor is good enough for me. You gotta admit, Trawlercaps recent purchase is gorgeous, as is the Malahide that has gotten some recent airplay. And for a small boat, my Willard 36 looks great - no doubt about it, these are trawlers of the highest order. Impractical? Sort of. But man..... Beautiful boats.

Peter
 
Heard it called “the dinghy quotient “. Given how much work, money, time is involved with boat ownership when you’re in your dinghy either coming or going to your boat it better make your heart sing.


And yes those boats look great.
 
Heard it called “the dinghy quotient “. Given how much work, money, time is involved with boat ownership when you’re in your dinghy either coming or going to your boat it better make your heart sing.


And yes those boats look great.

Then there is the "Admiral Factor".

Your boat, when mentioned, pictured, discussed, seen in person, utilized or dreamed about, had better please your Admiral in every way possible!

Happy Wife = Happy Life... Aboard Boat!!
 
3 different boats with properties that fullfill their owners desired needs...


Limited opinions on boats? Well you know what they say.....
 

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I've read tens of thousands of posts on this forum. One recent thread comes to mind about how loose furniture doesn't really need to be secured because no one plans to be in conditions that would cause it to shift. Another thread discussed the merits of reducing fuel tankage to increase water tankage - no need for fuel, not venturing too far, certainly no further than a 6-12 hour weather window forecast.

My takeaway? For this crowd, following sea abilities is largely a theoretical discussion - a table-top exercise. I've been in decent following seas in my boat and in, say, a N46. Both boats moved around a lot and neither felt like it was on rails. But I dunno. Most of my miles are on deliveries, and thus most of my miles are into weather. Following seas were relatively rare for me so I actually don't have a ton of experience.

I'll agree, many of us here don't venture out into particularly bad or unknown conditions. In the case of my furniture in particular, I've known my current boat far longer than I've owned it, so I knew how much it takes to move any furniture going in. On the other hand, I look at a lot of boats and am left wondering how ugly it would be to leave the dock if it weren't dead calm.

For running in following seas, with the local prevailing winds, it's often a downwind run going and an upwind run returning when we go to one of our most common local weekend spots. It's only a few miles, but we've done it on sporty days plenty of times. Because of the steep chop we get here, I tend to avoid coming home in more than 2, maybe 3 footers if we can help it (becomes a slightly rough and very wet ride, or a slow pitching one). But we've run over there in 3 - 4 and called it no big deal.


With the flat transom and 5 turns lock to lock on the steering, running slow in following seas can be a bit of work on my boat. Definitely nothing as graceful as a double ender or something slow with a huge rudder and fast steering. It handles well enough, but there's definitely a good bit of wheel work to keep it pointed in the right direction.

Fortunately, fuel range isn't an issue on those runs, so I can just stuff the throttles forward and go surfing. There's the 1 step up option of speeding up to pace the waves, or the next step of getting up on plane and running over the tops. 17 kts doesn't produce the ride that some fast express cruisers get in following seas where they're outrunning them so fast it almost becomes a head sea. But at 17 kts or so, you hit the back of a wave, drop to 14 kts or so, hear the engines load up and climb up to the top. Hit the top, pitch over, engines unload, boat accelerates to 18 - 20 kts and flies down the backside. Keep the bow up a bit to avoid stuffing it into the next wave and it'll surf along like that quite happily with very little steering input.


Basically, following sea abilities for us are less of a need, and more of an ability to say "yeah, we can go in that". And in general, I'd say double enders are usually better than flat transoms, big rudders and fast steering helps, but when it really comes down to it, nothing beats a good planing hull with plenty of power and a nice, full, buoyant bow in a following sea.
 
Given the choice between spending thousands on a more seaworthy boat of more advanced/accurate weather reporting, I'd choose the weather reporting every time.
 
To all the double-end owners on TF: Did any of you buy your boat because it was good in a following sea?

As the saying goes, "The heart wants what the heart wants." I knew I wanted a displacement boat with some range, though for no good reason other than I had become a disciple of Beebe. Beyond that, it was love at first sight. To suggest it was an intellectual or analytical exercise supported by facts would be one of the great lies in life.

Cheryll, my other half, likes to say "Real boats have round butts." I'm good with that. No following-sea discussions needed.

Peter
 
To all the double-end owners on TF: Did any of you buy your boat because it was good in a following sea?


Not speaking for myself, but my boss did buy his double ended sailboat for that reason. A sea trial on a rather sporty day sold him on it.
 
Ask which boaters needed a boat to ferry supplies and a vehicle to their favorite vacation spot which is a cabin on an island....then review the pictures I posted above.


A poll of what boaters buy out of a limited polling group with a very limited set of parameters gives you data that will show the time of the end of the earth befor it says anything of significance about boat selection...other than what a handfull of TFers thinks.
 
Given the choice between spending thousands on a more seaworthy boat of more advanced/accurate weather reporting, I'd choose the weather reporting every time.

This is one your best posts. I wish this topic received more air-time. In my opinion, too little emphasis is spent on weather forecasting. Being able to make intelligent weather decisions is incredibly liberating.

Gulf of Tehuantepec on the Pacific side of Mexico just north of Guatemala is notorious for very high winds and seas big enough to roll a ship. Cruisers are famous for sitting in Huatulco on the north end waiting for a weather window. Invariably, the lowest common denominator (least knowledgeable cruiser) sets the pace. It can take weeks before the herd can agree on a weather window when all they need to do is hug the beach.

Peter
 
... when it really comes down to it, nothing beats a good planing hull with plenty of power and a nice, full, buoyant bow in a following sea.

Yup!
 
The posted pics of Depoe Bay are great. The sight from the water, coming in is very intimidating. I just passed by recently, (heading Seattle to LA) and opted to scoot down to Newport, Yaquina Bay. From the water you see the bridge, and when you look under the bridge, you don't see the channel as one might think. It dog legs hard right when entering, so your view is a really tight entrance, with rock beyond. You don't see the harbor at all....I chickened out, and opted for Newport.

My boat is a canoe stern, and I agree with the assessment of Katherine Jane. Up and down the west coast we have been in plenty of short duration waves higher than the boat. Never took water over either end, and she never had a tendency to swap ends. View attachment 111197


Great post, I am VERY interested in you new generation Propellor. Did you upgrade to that? If so how was you performance/fuel burn/vibration/cavitaion affected?

I did a similar upgrade on a 123' and the difference was astounding. I'm looking into doing the same on my twin prop 58'.
 
A canoe is shaped like it is for a reason. And the reason isn’t for better directional control in following seas. There are VERY few square stern canoes and all for the same reason ... low power.
The stern w a pointy end is to minimize power required. trawlercap pointed that out when he drew attention to the very small wake from his pointy sterned boat.
 
Can anyone guess the course in a seaway with the LEAST stability? 3 choices (to make it simple)

1.. Upwind or bashing into it

2.. Abeam or rolling your guts out sideways

3..Dead down wind/down swell

(Just received this pic from previous owner.)

Screen Shot 2020-12-18 at 6.31.38 PM.jpg
 
Considering sea conditions are same for travel in each direction and swells are close duration with white cap waves upon each.

My experience saye #2 for double enders and #3 for flat transom

All of course has to do with twin or single screw, hull bottom shape and engine power available... not to mention steering type and rudder size!!
 
Considering sea conditions are same for travel in each direction and swells are close duration with white cap waves upon each.

My experience saye #2 for double enders and #3 for flat transom

All of course has to do with twin or single screw, hull bottom shape and engine power available... not to mention steering type and rudder size!!

OK, but only one answer allowed (I may not have mentioned that) Regardless of how cranky the boat is, if it has a stability problem, it will be worse (and most likely to lay over or worse, roll over) on one of those 3 courses.
 
Can anyone guess the course in a seaway with the LEAST stability? 3 choices (to make it simple)

1.. Upwind or bashing into it

2.. Abeam or rolling your guts out sideways

3..Dead down wind/down swell

(Just received this pic from previous owner.)

View attachment 111601

#3 has the highest risk (even though it it my favourite direction of travel)

I've had the sense of loss of control only once while running with the swell. Even though the boat handles well in following seas, when waves are breaking and dumping into the cockpit, its time to change direction.
 
I recognise a double ender can be more sea kindly BUT

We enjoy the ease of provisioning, boarding and swimming via a duckboard and transom cutout
The larger cockpit space
Ability to easily carry a large tender on davits

And I'd rather take the time to pick an appropriate weather window before making long passages instead of needing a double ender because I couldn't.

Going back through some old pics this was one I took about 600nm out into the coral sea, 5 days into a 7 day passage all of it pretty much glass.
Waited a couple of months to time it right but worth the wait.
 

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trawlercap,
Did you notice I posted a picture of your boat under the "Rainbow Bridge" at the so. end of LaConner? Surprised you didn't comment. It's on page 1 and post #19.
 
Simi,
You have the perfect boat for your local conditions.
Down here in the lower lattitudes we very occasionally get conditions like that, but it often followed by a mean southerly change after a day or two. '
If I waited for calm conditions with seas under a meter, I certainly wouldn't be doing much boating. I made a few compromises to getting a canoe stern boat, but I'm glad I did.
 
Simi,
You have the perfect boat for your local conditions.
Down here in the lower lattitudes we very occasionally get conditions like that, but it often followed by a mean southerly change after a day or two. '
If I waited for calm conditions with seas under a meter, I certainly wouldn't be doing much boating. I made a few compromises to getting a canoe stern boat, but I'm glad I did.

I understand but.......
That vessel I was delivering was in fact a Tasmanian built vessel that had spent most of her life in Southern waters.
Very similar hull shape to our hull, just on 45 ft.
Full keel, square transom, duckboard, transom cutout.
 
The double ender design culminated in Europe early last century with the Colin Archer rescue and pilot cutters and explorer sailing vessels in Scandinavia, known to be very seaworthy, heavily built but slow.

The nicest double ender I have seen was the Galerna, built in oak in the 1970ies in Denmark. She left Europe for Oz probably 15 years ago and is still based in Auckland NZ, I believe.
 

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Irrespective of the hull's aft configurement.

For handling head seas: Bow's prow-angle [i.e. its considerably increasing outward sweep], from halfway above the waterline and ending at gunnel, is what enables boat to stay afloat by not nose diving as it rides inward to and upward upon large waves,


I agree: first on our whish list was a high and flared bow for facing whatever might come our way – it worked out fine in pre-purchase sea trials on an angry North Sea in November.
But a more modern and practical stern arrangement, backed by professional weather routing when going offshore, works for us better than a traditional double ender.
 

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woolf - Your boat has a truly beautiful "nose". Her buoyant entry cut [wave slice bow] looks great. Bet it's fun to experience occasional robust head seas on your baby!
 
woolf - Your boat has a truly beautiful "nose". Her buoyant entry cut [wave slice bow] looks great. Bet it's fun to experience occasional robust head seas on your baby!


Thank you - and at lwl : bwl = 3,4 she can still cross a no wake zone without being shot at, despite her displacement
 
Love the bilge keels (we call the rolling chocks) beautiful creation you bow, I can see my reflection!
 
trawlercap,
Did you notice I posted a picture of your boat under the "Rainbow Bridge" at the so. end of LaConner? Surprised you didn't comment. It's on page 1 and post #19.

Yes I saw that thanks. I have similar pic that looks to be in the same spot. Very cool, it was before the fire.

Screen Shot 2020-10-10 at 6.14.03 PM copy.jpg
 
Dead downwind is the most unstable course
 
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