Eco-worthy batteries

[SteveK]

I have the ME-RC50 remote. It shows an LFP profile 13.8 bulk, then 14.4 absord, then a float (it says) as determined by BMS. Equalization though not used is set at 14.4.
It sounds like you did a custom setting to what my remote or my inverter already has available.
Bought inverter new this year, how old is yours? I did read that LFP was added within recent years, whereas your RC-L remote creates via the custom profile.

It was the bulk at 13.8 I was wondering about after reading that LFP should charge at 14.4, your observation that it starts at 13.9 and works up to 14.5, short absorb, then float with lower current.

Thanks

 

[tiltrider1]

I have the ME-ACR version 4.0 remote. It’s at least 6 years old.

 

[StarBright]

EcoWorthy Updagte?

Tiltrider1 - could you provide an update on your installation of the EcoWorthy L-16 size batteries. I'm just getting ready to replace my 4X AGM house batteries and was wondering how they are doing for you. Just checked the pricing and it looks like I can get them now for $1,995 for a set of four or a little more for the 280Ah version.

Also would like to know how your custom Magnum programming is working and if you have changed it since installation? And finally, what gauge/instrument are you using to track SOC?

Thanks - it looks like I can now maybe afford to go LI and your first-hand information would be much appreciated.

 

[tiltrider1]

I installed the batteries at the end of the cruising season. All my operations have been dock to dock. Some trips have been with the generator on to run the heat pumps do to extreme cold. Some trips have been generator off.

So far the boat works the same with the LiFePo4 eco-worthy batteries as it did with the old FLA L-16 batteries. There was a power shut down on the dock for 4 hours while I was on the boat and all worked as expected.

I have not had the opportunity to spend significant time on the hook to truly test capacity.

I have not made any additional changes to the magnum inverter’s programming as all appears well.

I noticed the pricing continues to get better. The 280ah model is the same size as the 260ah that I purchased and effectively the same price.

 

[CMS]

At a bare minimum LFP battery you buy for marine use should at least have a BT BMS. The batteries should also have UL cert if your vessel is insured..


https://marinehowto.com/drop-in-lifepo4-be-an-educated-consumer/

 

[tiltrider1]

At a bare minimum LFP battery you buy for marine use should at least have a BT BMS. The batteries should also have UL cert if your vessel is insured..


https://marinehowto.com/drop-in-lifepo4-be-an-educated-consumer/

All the LiFePo4 batteries I see for sale come with a BMS. What is important is that the BMS matches up to your charging capacity. You certainly don’t want a 260 Ah battery with a 50 Ah BMS connected to a 100 Ah charger.

On the other hand a 260 Ah battery with a 50 Ah BMS connected to a 40 Ah charger would work, assuming the charger was designed for LiFePo4.

In my case all of my battery chargers are programmable and could be programmed to work with LiFePo4.

As to UL ratings. UL still puts its mark on 30a shore cords but won’t certify a Smart Cord.

 

[SteveK]

At a bare minimum LFP battery you buy for marine use should at least have a BT BMS. The batteries should also have UL cert if your vessel is insured..


https://marinehowto.com/drop-in-lifepo4-be-an-educated-consumer/

BT BMS. BT=blue tooth. If that is correct why do you say should at least have BT? Since it is short range and a mounted display is as easy to look at. Why?

 

[CMS]

EcoWorthy...

 

[CMS]

BT BMS. BT=blue tooth. If that is correct why do you say should at least have BT? Since it is short range and a mounted display is as easy to look at. Why?

BT BMS. BT=blue tooth. If that is correct why do you say should at least have BT? Since it is short range and a mounted display is as easy to look at. Why?

If you have to ask You probably want to do some more reading..

Most insurance companies will want to see this communication as it is part of ABYC.

Critical LiFePo4 Data You Need!

Not all LifePo4 batteries are created equally. This article will show you why it is critical to know what's going on inside the box!

marinehowto.com

 

[SteveK]

If you have to ask You probably want to do some more reading..

Most insurance companies will want to see this communication as it is part of ABYC.

Critical LiFePo4 Data You Need!

Not all LifePo4 batteries are created equally. This article will show you why it is critical to know what's going on inside the box!

marinehowto.com

OK, I do read a lot. Read your link and found your opinions on topic. No reference to ABYC and insurance there. Care to post a link?

 

[markpj23]

My research this month proved to me that changing to LFP batteries is now cheaper than replacing my AGMs. For the same $$ you get roughly twice the usable Ahrs. Many existing inverters, like my Xantrex 3012s, can be programmed for LFP charging. Even my older Balmar 614 units can be custom programmed - the newer ones come with the program already in memory.
Check out the Epoch LFP batteries. For not much more $ you can get well designed features, bluetooth comms, Victron compatability and low temp / heating protection. Company based in GA.
No affiliation - just a fan of their products.

If you haven't read this article by Rod Collins - it is well worth the time spent before launching your LFP battery project. He is a member of the ABYC team that developed the 'new' Li battery standards.

Drop-In LiFePo4- Be an Educated Consumer

Lead is Dead! (except for start batts) Warning: This article is long and detailed. It may require two reads so the nuances and detail are not missed. You may be wondering why I am saying lead is dead ? The answer to that is simple;

marinehowto.com

 

[CMS]

OK, I do read a lot. Read your link and found your opinions on topic. No reference to ABYC and insurance there. Care to post a link?

E-13 image below. With no BMS that communicates to the outside world you have no clue a pack is about to disconnect.. With a BT BMS you have covered the "and/or visual part"

 

[CMS]

My research this month proved to me that changing to LFP batteries is now cheaper than replacing my AGMs. For the same $$ you get roughly twice the usable Ahrs. Many existing inverters, like my Xantrex 3012s, can be programmed for LFP charging. Even my older Balmar 614 units can be custom programmed - the newer ones come with the program already in memory.
Check out the Epoch LFP batteries. For not much more $ you can get well designed features, bluetooth comms, Victron compatability and low temp / heating protection. Company based in GA.
No affiliation - just a fan of their products.

If you haven't read this article by Rod Collins - it is well worth the time spent before launching your LFP battery project. He is a member of the ABYC team that developed the 'new' Li battery standards.

Drop-In LiFePo4- Be an Educated Consumer

Lead is Dead! (except for start batts) Warning: This article is long and detailed. It may require two reads so the nuances and detail are not missed. You may be wondering why I am saying lead is dead ? The answer to that is simple;

marinehowto.com

LFP is considerably cheaper than AGM and is now less than flooded batts, if you can do basic math.

Example; there is no one on the planet that can capacity test a lead acid battery at 15 years old that can still exceed its rated Ah capacity rating. My LFP pack does..

 

[markpj23]

EcoWorthy...

pouch cells.... no bueno

 

[tiltrider1]

I appreciate the link to the article. Having Bluetooth sounds like a very worth while feature. I believe if I was doing my project now that I would not consider any batteries that did not have Bluetooth capability.

Posting a picture of a battery that had a catastrophic failure with out any history is just fear mongering. Any battery can be abused and even FLA batteries can explode and start fires when grossly abused. With out the whole story the picture is meaningless.

After reading the article and noting all potential issues I find that the Ecoworthy batteries only fall short in the Bluetooth category. Yet, even the article states the failure of not having this information would result in swelled batteries and not in a fire.

The article also mentions to beware of Internet Trolls who spout doom and gloom from using a LiFePo4 battery. The article also states you can’t just drop in LiFePo4 batteries, that you must consider the whole system and make proper alterations.

 

[SteveK]

After researching to my satisfaction I went with 8-Renogy 100Ah Smart LFP. The final reason for choice was they talk to each other and a monitor via ethernet cable. They are also pouch style, which I think will become norm.
So far we can cook three meals per day, plus watch TV, +++ for two days using inverted power. On purpose I let the SOC drop to 5% over 2.5 days approx and still showed 12.6V. These things are amazing.

 

[tiltrider1]

Updating on my Eco-worthy installation. I have been monitoring the bank via my BKM. When on the hook I pull approximately 800 AH in a 19 hour period. I then run my generator for approximately 5 hours. My BMK counts AH out and in and gives me a SOC. Everything has been very consistent, even predictable.

Basically we run the Gen 8am to 1pm. Make water, due laundry and occasionally run some morning heat. With this routine we find ourselves only heading to the dock when the garbage pile is to big.

On days were we are headed for the dock we skip the generator and charge with shore power.

The only peculiarity is that all four batteries do not reach full charge at the same time. I can see the BMS’s drop out one at a time. The time difference is small so I suspect this is probably normal.

I really like the fact that even after an 80% depletion I still see 12.9 volts. My FLA bank was 1400ah but only 700 was recommended. While I could pull 800 ah I would be down to 11.9v. My FLA bank was flawless for the first 5 years, then recharging started to take much longer and by year 10 I was running the generator 10 hours a day.

We will see how the LFP’s preform when they are 10 years old.

 

[SteveK]

Is there any relationship to the batteries connection point from the main cables.
ie: 1st batt has + then 2nd batt 3rd. Or is it random and even different each time

 

[tiltrider1]

Positive wire runs to bat 1 then 2 then 3 then 4. Negative wire runs to bat 4 then 3 then 2 then 1.

Eco-worthy recommends running all batteries to the same point so this could be why they drop off at different points. It’s just not convenient to wire it all to the same point with equal length wire.

 

[twistedtree]

When you say the BMSes drop out one by one, so you mean they are disconnecting? If so, then you are overcharging them. A BMS disconnect is a fault condition, and should never happen in normal operation

 

[tiltrider1]

I don’t think they are disconcerting. I think the batteries are full and I see the amps drop in large numbers. Unlike FLA were the charger starts backing down 1 amp at a time.

It’s possible that all the batteries are behaving the same, it is my understanding that LFP’s take full power and then skip absorption and go to float. If there is an absorption period I could be seeing that but it is not a gradual count down like FLA batteries.

Not having any previous experience with LFP all I can do is observe and learn.

 

[SteveK]

The thing with these LFP batteries is that each manufacturer has their own opinion on charge profiles. Your eco-worthy may be asking for a different charge profile than my renogy. Renogy is bulk, absorb and float. The smart renogy also are connected to each other by ethernet cable and equalise themselves. The claim is a battery at higher charge stops receiving charge until a lower one catches up.
At float there is 0 amps until something onboard wants power, so batteries remain topped up at 13.5V.

 

[Bacchus]

I have been a fan of L16 FLA batteries for their longevity and price.

I noticed these LiFePO4 batteries at a very good price. At this price they are cheaper per usable amp/hr than L16 FLA batteries. Anyone have any experience with Eco-Worthy?

https://www.eco-worthy.com/products...Tm2vskXbsBaoDdMlRbuF4m50zaYvbGKIaAsRPEALw_wcB

IMO The "usable AH" quoted by the LiFePo4 Co's and proponents is pure marketing hype as best and pure BS at worst.
Trojan states an 80% DOD for conventional battys does no harm as many claim. Their L-16 AGM spec sheet clearly states...
"Lasts Longer: Up to 3x longer cycle life than standard AGM. Validated at 1,200 cycles at 100% DoD vs. 400 cycles for AGM."

The above seems to blow holes in all the hype around LiFePO4 and certainly has a major impact on the economics.
My East Penn 8D AGMs are now in their 11th season and still performing well. At least 1 has been run to 100% DOD early in its life... while I'm not proposing that is the best treatment it does say something about their ability to survive some / infrequent abuse.

Li may well be the way of the future but I'm not convinced we are there yet...performance maybe but economics remains questionable at least IMO.

 

[SteveK]

My East Penn 8D AGMs are now in their 11th season and still performing well.

Do you remember the advertised life expectancy? I am always waiting to hear if any battery makes it according to the hype proclaimed.

 

[tiltrider1]

Since I am only one year in I can only report my experience of the first year between FLA and LFP.

Both banks provide enough Ah to make it 24 hours on battery (I admit my boat is a power pig, efficiency is not my goal). LFP bank is 1040Ah with a claimed usable of 90%. FLA (8 L-16) bank was 1400Ah with a recommended usage of 700Ah. I consume 700Ah in 24 hours.

LFP took slightly less time to recharge but not significantly less.

LFP was still at 12.8 volts at the 24 hour mark compared to 11.8 for FLA (the accuracy of the FLA number is somewhat questionable due to the quality of the measurement device)

Both have the same foot print.

LFP’s were cheaper, weighed less and did not require a containment box.

LFP’s do not require adding water. My FLA bank required water every 6 months.

What remains to be known is how long a life the LFP bank will live.

The FLA bank had a solid 8 years. While I ran them 12 years I was struggling after year 8 to make it 24 hours. I survived by shutting down everything except refrigeration and anchor light at night. The real reason I did not replace the bank after 8 years was do to the difficult task of removing 1000# of batteries. By year 12, I was running 14 hours on battery and 10 on generator.

I cannot speak to AGM as I have never had an AGM bank of comparable size. I can say the AGM bank costs a minimum of 3 times more and has a similar weight issues as the FLA bank.

 

[SteveK]

LFP was still at 12.8 volts at the 24 hour mark compared to 11.8 for FLA

This^^^ is what I like the best. I need to write stuff down, but will say I had 12.5V left when I purposefully used the house bank until it reached 5% SOC. That was nearly 48 hours. I was impressed.

 

[tiltrider1]

The thing with these LFP batteries is that each manufacturer has their own opinion on charge profiles. Your eco-worthy may be asking for a different charge profile than my renogy. Renogy is bulk, absorb and float. The smart renogy also are connected to each other by ethernet cable and equalise themselves. The claim is a battery at higher charge stops receiving charge until a lower one catches up.
At float there is 0 amps until something onboard wants power, so batteries remain topped up at 13.5V.

my charge profile is also bulk, absorb, float. With the FLA bank I would watch the volts count up to 14.5 and then watch the amps count down from 125 to 20 one amp at a time.

With the LFP I see the volts count up and then the amps count down but at a much higher rate than one amp at a time.

At first I thought this was each battery getting fully charged at a different time but then I realized that the remaining batteries would still take the full capacity of the battery charger. So this must be the absorption part of the charge cycle.

I am still in the observation and learning cycle.

 

[luna]

That is a very useful report, at least to me as I remain with about 2,000 Ahs. @ 12 V. of FLA, now 6 Y/O and seem to have the same energy hog habits as what you revealed. Yep, easily 700 Ahs @12 V. in 22 hrs provided I make dinner and heat water with the inverters.
Genset currently runs for 2-3 hours once a day. At rest, I can easily charge at over 350 Amps. Underway, without overheating the Alts. I can add another 275 A.

What was somewhat disappointing was your stated LFP recharge time.

Without being underway, what is your present charging capacity?

Maybe you have (I'm hoping) a relatively low charging capacity and that explains the "not significantly less" charge time statement.

 

[dhays]

IMO The "usable AH" quoted by the LiFePo4 Co's and proponents is pure marketing hype as best and pure BS at worst.
Trojan states an 80% DOD for conventional battys does no harm as many claim. Their L-16 AGM spec sheet clearly states...
"Lasts Longer: Up to 3x longer cycle life than standard AGM. Validated at 1,200 cycles at 100% DoD vs. 400 cycles for AGM."

The above seems to blow holes in all the hype around LiFePO4 and certainly has a major impact on the economics.
My East Penn 8D AGMs are now in their 11th season and still performing well. At least 1 has been run to 100% DOD early in its life... while I'm not proposing that is the best treatment it does say something about their ability to survive some / infrequent abuse.

Li may well be the way of the future but I'm not convinced we are there yet...performance maybe but economics remains questionable at least IMO.

I hear what you are saying. However, it seems to me that LiPo batteries have transitioned from the realm of early adopters who are OK with bleeding edge tech, to mainstream incredibly fast.

I replaced my house bank 7 years ago this month. It doesn't seem like it was that long ago. I used 4 six volt L16 AGM batteries for a total of a nominal 720Ah.

My thruster bank is two very old Lifeline AGM 8Ds. They are begining to get tired. When it comes time to replace those, I will likely look at making the conversion to LiPo in some form or another. I never thought that LiPo would have come so far, so fast.

 

[tiltrider1]

My charging capacity is 125 amps per hour from the generator and 50 amps per hour from the engines.

I could easily increase this to 250 amps per hour via generator(just need to add a second battery charger) and 100 amps per hour from the engine(just need to add a second dc to dc charger). Currently I am content with my setup.