Emergency Bilge pump installed

[psneeld]

Trash pumps are self priming save they need some liquid in them to keep the seals cool until the water flows well.

Used extensively in emergency flooding situations and salvage.

The ones we used in the USCG and assistance towing were gas but diesel was available for bigger pumps. They don't work under water any better than open electric motors and have reliability issues electric wouldnt.

Keep a gallon jug next to the pump with water and you are good to go with the short intake run you have and little head. Keeping a cool head in emergencies applies to not only pumps but in all dangerous situations. Pouring some water in a pump and hitting a switch is not much more demanding than the other tasks going on.

We used the double 3500 gph bilge pump packs and they pale in comparison to any 1.5 inch or larger trash pump...paper ratings be damned.

The pumps have corrosion issues compared to submersible pumps so a bimonthly or quarterly testing would be prudent from my experience.

Ultimately pumps aren't supposed to keep up with damage inflow, they are supposed to dewatering and keep up with patch leaks. Guessing what is actually required is almost a folly as what flow do you start with and what flow do you end up with?

I have been around that block more than once and have no clue fo my boat nor any other....

 

[sdowney717]

Greetings,
Mr. 11. A quick Google for high volume submersible de-watering pumps brings up a myriad of choices. As to comparative capacities...You're on your own.
A random listing... Global Pump | Submersible High Volume Dewatering

Good link on high quality pumps.
Can any pump keep ahead pumping water out of a hose smaller in size than the diameter of the hole in the hull?

the idea of passive flotation appeals to me, designing in ability to float.
The goal would be a massive hole in any one part of the boat and the boat would still float. If they boat sinks to the bottom it is that much worse for the survivors and the environment and someone's pocketbook.

 

[Phil Fill]

What's the output of a large Diesel engines water pump in comparison? What if you had a second hookup into the water pump from the bilge?

This is some what common for commercials, using the engine water intake. That is on the to do list. Also commercial and I belive canada require two bilge pumps as back up and capacity. Two years ago had the raw water 2 hose slip off, the primary pump failed but the secondary pump worked. Al so have alarms on all 6 pumps, plus a portable 1500 pump just in case.

 

[No Mast]

It's been on our to do list as well. I like the fact that I'm not relying on the electrical system for it. Still have to compare it's gph before deciding that's our route for sure.

 

[Capt.Bill11]

Greetings,
Mr. 11. A quick Google for high volume submersible de-watering pumps brings up a myriad of choices. As to comparative capacities...You're on your own.
A random listing... Global Pump | Submersible High Volume Dewatering

Those look like they would work.

But they are around 30" tall or so. And you'd have to put one in each water tight area.

With a remote pump you just have to plumb pick ups to the different bilge areas coming off a valved manifold. The pick ups would of course have a much lower profile than the submersible pumps.

 

[BIG CAT]

you could install a brass swing check valve and use a small automatic bilge pump to prime it. just plumb the the small pump to fill the line just above the check valve so the line will be full before the big pump start pulling.

https://www.grainger.com/product/GR...m/rp/s/is/image/Grainger/6VDT3_AS01?$smthumb$

 

[BIG CAT]

What's the output of a large Diesel engines water pump in comparison? What if you had a second hookup into the water pump from the bilge?

how large of a diesel are you thinking? the avg 3208 raw water pump moves 10 to 20 gpm at idle and top out some where in the 70 to 80 gpm range.

 

[dhays]

Got it installed, ended up removing our manual bilge pump which had the same exact size hose the new pump needed.

Interesting thread, but this part makes me wonder... Does this mean you have no manual bilge pump anymore? I think I would be nervous without some type of manual bilge pump backup.

BTW, a few years ago while cruising back from the San Juans, I was monitoring a distress call on 16. A power boat was taking on water rapidly and the bilge pumps were not keeping up with the inflow. A woman (assuming a wife) was manning the helm and the radio. Her husband was down in the engine compartment manning the manual bilge pump but they were losing the battle and the engine compartment was flooding. She was driving the boat towards the nearest beach but didn't think they would make it before the boat sank. The USCG was tracking them and dispatching assistance.

Another boater came on the radio to offer the suggestion that they cut the raw water intake line and then close the seacock. Apparently the they succeeded in doing that. They were getting beyond my VHF range, but the bits and pieces that I continued to catch doing this enabled them to stay afloat long enough to beach.

Since listening to that exchange, the idea of a valve that connected the raw water intake to a hose in the bilge has seemed like an attractive idea.

 

[HopCar]

Dave I don't know why more people don't have a way to easily use their engine pump as a bilge pump in an emergency. I have a tee and valve just before my strainer. A hose runs from the valve down to the bilge. The plan in an emergency is to open the valve on the tee and then close the seacock.

A couple of years ago I was on a sport fish boat that was sinking. I kept looking at the two big Jabscos on the engines wishing there was an easy way to use them. If we hadn't gotten the flooding under control, I'd have been down there with my pocket knife trying to cut those big hoses.

 

[N4712]

Interesting thread, but this part makes me wonder... Does this mean you have no manual bilge pump anymore? I think I would be nervous without some type of manual bilge pump backup.

BTW, a few years ago while cruising back from the San Juans, I was monitoring a distress call on 16. A power boat was taking on water rapidly and the bilge pumps were not keeping up with the inflow. A woman (assuming a wife) was manning the helm and the radio. Her husband was down in the engine compartment manning the manual bilge pump but they were losing the battle and the engine compartment was flooding. She was driving the boat towards the nearest beach but didn't think they would make it before the boat sank. The USCG was tracking them and dispatching assistance.

Another boater came on the radio to offer the suggestion that they cut the raw water intake line and then close the seacock. Apparently the they succeeded in doing that. They were getting beyond my VHF range, but the bits and pieces that I continued to catch doing this enabled them to stay afloat long enough to beach.

Since listening to that exchange, the idea of a valve that connected the raw water intake to a hose in the bilge has seemed like an attractive idea.

Yep, no manual pump. Not too worried about it.

 

[Capt.Bill11]

Yep, no manual pump. Not too worried about it.

 

[N4712]

I look at it like this: 180GPM vs 30-40GPM I say 30-40 because as one gets tired you won't be pumping as much. So as long as the generator is above water we're good. But if it goes beyond that I'll be getting the inflatable raft and cutting the straps on the tender.

 

[dhays]

I look at it like this: 180GPM vs 30-40GPM I say 30-40 because as one gets tired you won't be pumping as much. So as long as the generator is above water we're good. But if it goes beyond that I'll be getting the inflatable raft and cutting the straps on the tender.

Yeah, I suppose. I just haven't caught up with these modern inventions. You know, like electricity....

 

[Searios]

Ericsson safety pump

I've got an Ericsson Safety 3" trash pump on the prop shaft. Always on when propeller is turning. The higher reduction ratio of the gearbox, the less output of the pump....the trash pump discharges almost anything....

Theoretically, mine can deliver around 1200 liters/min.

It can be hydraulic (or electrical) driven too if higher capacity is required...

ESP Ericson Safety Pumps | AES

 

[Capt.Bill11]

I look at it like this: 180GPM vs 30-40GPM I say 30-40 because as one gets tired you won't be pumping as much. So as long as the generator is above water we're good. But if it goes beyond that I'll be getting the inflatable raft and cutting the straps on the tender.

 

[sdowney717]

I've got an Ericsson Safety 3" trash pump on the prop shaft. Always on when propeller is turning. The higher reduction ratio of the gearbox, the less output of the pump....the trash pump discharges almost anything....

Theoretically, mine can deliver around 1200 liters/min.

It can be hydraulic (or electrical) driven too if higher capacity is required...

ESP Ericson Safety Pumps | AES

That is a genuine and true emergency pump.
Plus a bilge blower.

 

[Searios]

Yes, it's an all-in-one... always running if propeller is turning...and much cheaper too...no hydraulic or electrical power required.

A downside is that it requires another thru-hull.

Actually, that's where I could have improved my design because my thru-hull is on the hull side, but it would have been better if it was discharging onto the aft deck...

 

[FF]

Folks that wish to de-water fast might copy what ships do.

Do not waste energy lifting water.

Simply pump it out the bottom.

A remote cabled thru hull would make this EZ.

 

[Sailor of Fortune]

Great setup Oliver.
Bluetide

Just curious if your Avatar pic was taken at Shipyard in Erie, Pa?

 

[HopCar]

Folks that wish to de-water fast might copy what ships do.

Do not waste energy lifting water.

Simply pump it out the bottom.

A remote cabled thru hull would make this EZ.

Does that make a difference? You have to overcome the external water pressure which I would think takes the same energy as lifting the water to the waterline. I haven't tried to do the math so that's just my gut feeling. Lifting above the waterline would take more energy.

 

[Wxx3]

Dave I don't know why more people don't have a way to easily use their engine pump as a bilge pump in an emergency. I have a tee and valve just before my strainer. A hose runs from the valve down to the bilge. The plan in an emergency is to open the valve on the tee and then close the seacock.

A couple of years ago I was on a sport fish boat that was sinking. I kept looking at the two big Jabscos on the engines wishing there was an easy way to use them. If we hadn't gotten the flooding under control, I'd have been down there with my pocket knife trying to cut those big hoses.

Yep.
I think this is must do first step.

 

[Capt.Bill11]

Does that make a difference? You have to overcome the external water pressure which I would think takes the same energy as lifting the water to the waterline. I haven't tried to do the math so that's just my gut feeling. Lifting above the waterline would take more energy.

They pump it out the bottom via a stand pipe in most cases. So there is no need for a remote controled valve. Nor are you fighting the rather significant back pressure from trying to pump water out against water trying to come in.

 

[HopCar]

They pump it out the bottom via a stand pipe in most cases. So there is no need for a remote controled valve. Nor are you fighting the rather significant back pressure from trying to pump water out against water trying to come in.

So the stand pipe has to come higher than the waterline? How does that reduce how high the pump has to push the water?

I had never thought about it but if you've got a ship with a thirty foot draft or more, you need a serious pump to get water out of the bilge and outside the ship.

 

[waddenkruiser]

The pumping head needed at a given flow rate comprises of the differences of geodetic height, pressure and flow velocities, all measured between inlet and outlet of the pipework involved, and the pressure losses of the pipe flow.
If pumping out through the bottom the stand pipe inside of the boat does NOT count into the geodetic head since the pipe outlet is at the same height as the inlet. In that configuration the geodetic head is given by the height of the sea level above the bilge pump while the stand pipe contributes only to the pressure losses of the pipe flow. That is why this pipe work should be designed carefully with appropriate size (as big in diameter as reasonable with regard to installation situation) and avoidance of sharp elbows.
If pumping through the hull above sea level the geodetic head is given by the height of the outlet above the bilge pump. Compared to the bottom outlet configuration the geodetic head is now obviously increased by the height of the outlet above sea level. In addition the pump has now to overcome the parasitic kinetic energy of the water splashing out of the outlet.
But: Whether the pump head needed at a given flow rate is lower with the bottom outlet configuration strongly depends on the pipe flow pressure losses i.e. on the appropriate design and sizing of the pipe work. You need at least two elbows in the stand pipe while you can design the pipe more or less straight forward imposing very small pressure losses in case of pumping out above sea level. So, as usually, it depends all on the installation situation and whether the ER is roomy enough for a reasonable sized pipe work.
There might be other advantages and disadvantages of both configurations beside the pump head question.


best regards / med venlig hilsen
wadden

 

[FF]

5 PSI is about an 11 ft head .

Most of our boats do not draw even half of that.

When Practical Sailor tests pumps and uses a 4 or 5 ft discharge height many pumps only see half of their claimed pumping capacity.

 

[waddenkruiser]

When Practical Sailor tests pumps and uses a 4 or 5 ft discharge height many pumps only see half of their claimed pumping capacity.

... already two elbows will count for those 4' discharge head if we want to pump out 32 gpm through a 1" pipe. We still need 1' discharge head in a 1,5" pipe work with two elbows to overcome the pressure losses, they become only negligible if we increase the inner pipe diameter to 2". Most of us won't have installed such a pipe or hose. And to make it even worse: as a minimum we have to add the height of the sea level above the bilge pump to get the needed head of the pump.
32 gpm is not much IMO. It is more or less the flow rate produced by a failed 1" seacock 3' below sea level ...


best regards / med venlig hilsen
wadden

 

[BIG CAT]

What about using a 1hp sump pump? They move 4k to 5k gal.hr and are designed to live in a pretty nasty environment.

 

[sdowney717]

What about using a 1hp sump pump? They move 4k to 5k gal.hr and are designed to live in a pretty nasty environment.

At HomeDepot $230 will buy you 5,500 GPH or 4,680 GPH at 10 foot lift.
Which is 78 GPM, which may not be enough for an emergency.

The Everbilt 1HP cast-iron submersible sump pump equipped with innovative reed sensor vertical float switch pumps to 5500 GPH at 0 ft. lift or 4680 GPH at 10 ft. lift. The rugged cast-iron construction, oil-filled and thermally protected motor, permanent lubricated ball bearings provide long time trouble free service. The unit fits in a 10 in. Dia sump basin.

As opposed to these which I am sure cost a whole lot more.

Global Pump® portable electric submersible pumps are ideal for corrosive and abrasive applications. Ideal for high flow,lower head applications. Available in models from 3" to 8" and 5 hp to 50 hp., these pumps can achieve max heads of 225 ft. and 2300 gpm.

 

[waddenkruiser]

It isn't only a question of max flow rate of the pump (of course: the higher the better) but also of the max discharge head of the pump. Both figures indicate start and end of the pump performance curve, max discharge head Hm at zero flow rate and max flow capacity Cm at zero head. As a simple approximation we can assume the pump performance curve as a straight line between those two points which are usually indicated on the data sheet. Therefore the ratios of actual flow rate C / max flow capacity Cm and actual discharge head H / max discharge head Hm are correlated by
C / Cm = 1 - H/ Hm
This crude approximation is on the safe side i.e. it will slightly underestimate the actual flow by some 10-15% in the head region of our interest.
Taking as an example a "heavy duty 12V submersible bilge pump" with 16.5' max discharge head and max flow capacity of 2060 GPH - performance clearly above the standard installations I see on pleasure boats here in the Baltic region. Against 5' head (4' for our draw and 1' for the pressure losses of our 1.5" pipe work at 32 GPM) our nice formula calculates a flow rate of
C = 2065 GPH x (1 - 5'/16.5') = 1440 GPH = 24 GPM.
Even taking into account that our formula might underestimate the flow by 15% - this above standard (at least for the pleasure boats here) pump will not manage to bring the 32 GPM out of our boat.
So take the numbers for max flow capacity and max head of the pump in question and check the expected flow rate against a typical head of 4 - 6(7) ft to make your decision. And please don't forget to adjust the diameter of your pipe work accordingly: if you double the flow rate you need to increase the pipe diameter by the factor of 1.4 to end up with the same discharge head ...


best regards / med venlig hilsen
wadden

 

[waddenkruiser]

The Everbilt 1HP cast-iron submersible sump pump equipped with innovative reed sensor
vertical float switch pumps to 5500 GPH at 0 ft. lift or 4680 GPH at 10 ft. lift.

Assuming two elbows in a 1.5" pipe and the bilge pump 4' below sea level, this AC pump would be able to get those 4680 GPH = 78 GPM out of our boat. The pressure loss of the pipe flow would be in the range of 6', the overall discharge head therefore 10'.
AC pumps might be really a safety plus in an emergency case - we have always an AC pump (with a hose mounted) handy when underway. IMO an AC pump is the only chance we have to control a leak caused by a failed seacock over a longer period of time.



best regards / med venlig hilsen
wadden