Fire Suppression

[wpc691]

What % of motorboats less than 65 feet have an auto fire suppression system, or even a port to spray suppressant thru the floor? If a not having either is a danger to other boats, then a very large number of boats should be uninsurable. Gasoline powered boats are the real fire risk...yet there is no insurance requirement for a hydrocarbon lockout to prevent explosion. I would be more worried about the gas powered express cruiser in the slip next to me not using his bilge blowers and not inspecting for leaks before startup than a diesel boat with engine running next to me. Boats equipped with propane are a real risk too..I know of no system that shuts down all power in the presence of volatile hydrocarbons in the bilge.yet insurance is still provided..My boat had its propane stove removed and replaced with electric.

Every Hatteras built (as far as I know) came standard with auto fire suppression, auto engine shutdown, manual release, shutdown override, and port for manual halon release. “Every Hatteras built” is a very small percentage of all boats under 65 ft, but I’m glad they thought it was worth having.

 

[HopCar]

Halon was developed as a flooding fire suppressant to replace CO2 flooding systems because Halon will put out a fire at concentrations that won’t kill a human. Halon and it’s replacements don’t smother a fire like CO2 but somehow interrupt the chemical reaction of the fire. I don’t claim to understand the chemistry of that.

To keep the safety factor of Halon or it’s replacements you have to size the system correctly. Bigger is not better. With FM200 you are looking for a system that will raise the concentration in the protected space to between 6 and 9 percent. Above 6% it will put out a fire. Above 9% it will put out a human.

 

[rgano]

I appreciate all the feedback. Kind of rethinking the adding of an automatic system. First, I am going to install a first class monitoring and alarm system for the engine room. So, I will know EARLY when/if a fire starts--hopefully long before engine room reaches 180F.

As I mentioned earlier, I am not a fan of Halon 1301 or equivalent low boiling point suppressants (FM200, HFC227ea) that require the room to be "flooded". But I see sytems using high boiling point suppressants (e.g Halotron or HFC227fa Cleanguard or Novec 1230) that are pretty close to Halon 1211 in performance available in automatic systems. (I am particularly impressed with Novec 1230.) And having the system "be just there in case" as a last line of defense and when I am not at the helm or available to respond quickly enough is a comforting thought. So if it is not too "fiscally outrageous" I may install one.

I like where you are headed with this.

 

[stroutmail]

Actually, the Halon used for "streaming" was called 1211 and was developed in WWII..mostly for aircraft. Halon 1301 came later in 1954 as a "flooding" agent. They and their new replacements " both "kill" the fire but a little differently. It is more difficult to direct the flooding supressants toward a point source, so it take a bit more material to get the job done...and you do not want to size the system too large or too small. Not having to aim it at a point source can be advantage...just fill up the room to a certain %.

 

[rslifkin]

IIRC, Novec 1230 also has a higher spread between extinguishing concentration and human-killing concentration than FM200, which means you can over-size a little more safely, which is good if you can't seal the engine room entirely and may lose some of the agent over the next few minutes.

 

[stroutmail]

Yes..that Novev 1230 does seem impressive.

 

[stroutmail]

https://www.boatus.com/magazine/2015/december/causes-of-boat-fires.asp

The Boat US article above is pretty interesting. More than half the fires are electrical...and not always electrical in the engine room.

Got me thinking...what are most people doing to fight fires in the salon?

Would you flood the salon with suppressant if you had a galley fire or a short circuit in the instrument panel or AC compressor? My thought is you would have a good alarm system and put the fire out with a clean agent hand held.

 

[OldDan1943]

I had my system connected to as to shut down both the main engine and the generator. Prior to the change, it only shut down the main engine.
I have been know to defeat the automatic system if I am going through a rough inlet.
After I get safely through the inlet, I will reactivate the auto side and there is a active fire suppression will go off and put any fire out.
I can also see the advantage of a manual release also be it the same bottle or separate bottle.
Also a view port so as to determine if the fires is out and safe to enter the compartment.
Relying on camera(s) is nice but if the fire disabled the cameras, I guess we should wait a few minutes before entering ..... we dont want a flash back. There lies the advantage of a remote ER temp indicator. If the temp decreases, there a reason to expect the fire has been extinguished.

 

[Codger2]

I like where you are headed with this.

I do too but the system demonstrated looks very expensive & seems to demand a lot of space.

 

[roddy]

My 3 cents worth..
Think effective alarm and training are equally important. Getting everyone to abandon ship stations and ditch bag should come before fighting fire.
Owned 28 Bayliner with twin 6cyl gas Volvos and gas tank in engine room. Never had a fire but trained wife and daughter's in emergency plan and abandon ship plan. if fire, be ready to abandon ship safely, if ordered or obvious.
Sound alarm, Stop engines, Switch batteries off, head count, get them off boat and fight fire if safe to do so. Engine fire with gas engines and fuel tanks in same compartment probably NOT safe to fight fire from boat! Burning fiberglass and other plastics fumes are lethal so depending on fire maybe best to watch from safe distance.
Also installed continuous duty bilge fans because not much natural air draft while running less than 15 knots or trolling and cut in round 4 inch hatch in cockpit, so i could discharge my 20 lb CO2 fire extinguisher through it.

 

[FF]

One bit of insurance can be copied from Inspected Vessels.

They are required to have external fuel tank shutoffs , hopefully to keep a small blaze from getting bigger.

Also works as anti theft system if boat is stolen.

 

[stroutmail]

One bit of insurance can be copied from Inspected Vessels.

They are required to have external fuel tank shutoffs , hopefully to keep a small blaze from getting bigger.

Also works as anti theft system if boat is stolen.

Fuel shutoff solenoid valves would reduce fuel from tanks reaching fire.

Each "good idea" makes systems potentially more effective BUT....there is a downside...each escalation in complexity increases probability that system will fail.

In 1973, I was Manager of Technical Services for a large fleet of heavy duty trucks. My boss had mandated installation of very sophisticated automatic engine shutdown systems. Goal was to reduce engine failures from overheating or running low on oil or oil pressure. End result was the cost of road calls from failed engine shutdown systems far exceeded the cost from engine failures. Often, system failures were intermittent, so technicians could not diagnose cause of failure, so multiple failures occurred. Drivers became quite annoyed. When we provided a driver override, most just turned off the system.

In the end, we modified system to be warning vs shutdown systems. Paying more attention to fixing oil and coolant leaks and preventive maintenance yielded much better results.

Moral...be careful to consider consequences of a complex system as failures of a system designed to protect from a failure of another system sometimes become like the cure is worse than the disease. I sometimes think people are overestimating the reliability of "technology". Humans make mistakes, but when properly trained are still much better at making judgements than machines or systems. That is why I think machines and systems should be "human assistants" but humans should always be the "boss".

Obviously, I am one that thinks we will never have autonomous driving cars, supertankers or airplanes. Lol.

 

[stroutmail]

All said...I have to "stand corrected" on one issue. Research with Yacht brokers indicates that majority of yachts have auto engine fire systems. Seems that the "old" pre-2000 trawlers are only exception tho. So bringing a 1985 classic trawler "up to date" probably requires an engine room system. Brokers did say however, that price would not go up or down much solely on boat having or not having.

 

[OldDan1943]

system. Brokers did say however, that price would not go up or down much solely on boat having or not having.

And you believe your broker too.
I would be very surprised if you can get insurance w/o an auto system.

 

[stroutmail]

And you believe your broker too.
I would be very surprised if you can get insurance w/o an auto system.

Underwriters probably evaluate a super high end late model American Tug a bit differently than a 1980 trawler.

And. yes. I do believe some brokers. There are many very ethical sales people and you can be a very successful sales person by always telling the truth. the whole truth and nothing but the truth. And, I have found many yacht brokers generally to be very knowledgeable.

 

[stroutmail]

https://www.boatus.com/magazine/2015/december/causes-of-boat-fires.asp

The Boat US article above is pretty interesting. More than half the fires are electrical...and not always electrical in the engine room.

Got me thinking...what are most people doing to fight fires in the salon?



Would you flood the salon with suppressant if you had a galley fire or a short circuit in the instrument panel or AC compressor? My thought is you would have a good alarm system and put the fire out with a clean agent hand held.

Post #20 in this thread shares link to a story of a boat that caught fire (Manatee)...short electrical circuit causef fire in the wall in the salon.

https://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s16/tf-members-escape-manatee-fire-48220.html

Lots of attention to engine room systems, but probably just or more likely to see a fire inside the cabin. So, just having an engine room system does not make boat immune from fire risk.

 

[OldDan1943]

Post #20 in this thread shares link to a story of a boat that caught fire (Manatee)...short electrical circuit causef fire in the wall in the salon.

https://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s16/tf-members-escape-manatee-fire-48220.html

Lots of attention to engine room systems, but probably just or more likely to see a fire inside the cabin. So, just having an engine room system does not make boat immune from fire risk.

I totally agree and keep meaning to mount a fire blanket in the galley area to attack cooking fires.

 

[stroutmail]

This post started about fire supression..it quickly moved toward engine room strategies..but there is much more than risk in just that section of the boat.

I just recd shipment of my new flares...incl some really nice SOLAS rocket parachute flares. They came shipped in a substantial steel can, padded like they were sticks of dynamite. Struck me that we are carrying explosives..highly flammable items on our boats..seldom do I hear discussion about risks associated with storing flares.

 

[stroutmail]

https://www.fisheriessupply.com/flare-safety

Above is a pretty good article...here is the part of storage of flares: "While flares are classified as flammable, they are generally safe and stable if stored correctly. There is no threat of mass explosion, nor is there any threat of an individual flare exploding. They should be stored in a cool, dry place away from excessive heat (above 167 degrees F), and away from sparks or flames. The normal recommended storage temperatures are 40 degrees to 90 degrees F. Do not expose flares to water for periods of longer than 10 minutes."

The instructions/warning with the SOLAS flares say "Store according to local regulations for explosives" Probably prudent to store in a metal box "magazine".

 

[twistedtree]

Fuel shutoff solenoid valves would reduce fuel from tanks reaching fire.

Each "good idea" makes systems potentially more effective BUT....there is a downside...each escalation in complexity increases probability that system will fail.

In 1973, I was Manager of Technical Services for a large fleet of heavy duty trucks. My boss had mandated installation of very sophisticated automatic engine shutdown systems. Goal was to reduce engine failures from overheating or running low on oil or oil pressure. End result was the cost of road calls from failed engine shutdown systems far exceeded the cost from engine failures. Often, system failures were intermittent, so technicians could not diagnose cause of failure, so multiple failures occurred. Drivers became quite annoyed. When we provided a driver override, most just turned off the system.

In the end, we modified system to be warning vs shutdown systems. Paying more attention to fixing oil and coolant leaks and preventive maintenance yielded much better results.

Moral...be careful to consider consequences of a complex system as failures of a system designed to protect from a failure of another system sometimes become like the cure is worse than the disease. I sometimes think people are overestimating the reliability of "technology". Humans make mistakes, but when properly trained are still much better at making judgements than machines or systems. That is why I think machines and systems should be "human assistants" but humans should always be the "boss".

Obviously, I am one that thinks we will never have autonomous driving cars, supertankers or airplanes. Lol.

All good points.


In this discussion, there are really two points of automation:


1) Automatic deployment of the fire extinguisher


2) Automatic engine and fan shutdown when extinguisher is deployed.


I think #2 is pretty important, even if you don't do #1. The reason of course is that without engine and fan shutdown, #1 is rendered useless, whether manually or automatically deployed.


Also, there is no reason why you can't have BOTH alarming AND automatic deployment. In fact it's probably a really good thing to do. Obviously the alarming thresholds would be set lower that the automatic deployment thresholds, but it would give you an opportunity to address the situation sooner, and in some cases heading off the automatic deployment.

 

[catalinajack]

We own a 1983 DeFever 44 with an automatic halon system wired to the engine shut-off solenoids. I do not know if it is original to the build.

All said...I have to "stand corrected" on one issue. Research with Yacht brokers indicates that majority of yachts have auto engine fire systems. Seems that the "old" pre-2000 trawlers are only exception tho. So bringing a 1985 classic trawler "up to date" probably requires an engine room system. Brokers did say however, that price would not go up or down much solely on boat having or not having.

 

[catalinajack]

Fire safety is important but I wonder how many American dirt house have fire blankets in their kitchens. Just wondering, not a criticism of the observation.

I totally agree and keep meaning to mount a fire blanket in the galley area to attack cooking fires.

 

[stroutmail]

That is the direction I am going. Rate of Rise alarm to tell me engine temp is rising quickly. 2nd alarm at 135 F. Automatic Novec 1230 engine room system at 175 F. 3rd alarm at 170 F. Remote air temp gauge with exact temp of engine compartment. Ongoing monitoring of engine room temp. Rate of Rise is first warning...check temp. 135 F alarm probable fire. Verify temp..Shut down engine if safe to do so--or manual override if not safe to shut down or possible false alarm. 3rd warning..if not manually overridden, system is deploying. Final reminder that engine (and generator) should be off. Temp gauge monitors conditions...temp should fall and when low enough will verify fire is out. If boat is unattended...all automatic. Smoke alarm in addition to heat sensors. 135 F alarm tells crew to ready the tender.

Maybe sounds complicated but components available from FireBoy and Aquaalarm (and UMA Instruments) available reasonable price.

Still not an auto engine shutdown, but lots advance warning.

 

[FF]

"Each "good idea" makes systems potentially more effective BUT....there is a downside...each escalation in complexity increases probability that system will fail."


True, that is why many of the commercial boats stick with cable pulls.

 

[Portage_Bay]

Coming from the work boat world, auto release often set up to trip on rate of rise, with manual backup is common. Especially on inspected boats.

I value auto release on recreational boats because there lots of hours where no one is on watch near the manual pull station. Including in the bunk asleep.

"Each "good idea" makes systems potentially more effective BUT....there is a downside...each escalation in complexity increases probability that system will fail."


True, that is why many of the commercial boats stick with cable pulls.

 

[stroutmail]

Pretty easy to get an auto system that can be pulled manually if you want it early. These are usally called "pre-engineered". FireBoy and Sea-Fire for example. Getting one with ability to over-rider the auto system is more expensive for aftermarket system--usually called "engineered" or "custom". In order to have the over-ride feature, generally you have to go toward an electrical solenoid where the auto circuit can be over-ridden. I am told the ABS rules for commercial vessels require the override so system can be disabled while working in engine room. (sort of a "Service safety switch")

Because the engineered sytems are more expensive, I may end up having to give up on the over-ride feature and rely on my "early warning" alarm system.

 

[OldDan1943]

Stroutmail, for my automatic fires suppression system, there is a toggle switch at the helm. It is 2 position and it reads, "Normal" and "Override". Please correct me if I am wrong but, to me the "Normal" means it will automatically release the gas if needed. "Override" means it wont release the gas even if needed. Once the gas starts to be released, switching to the override position will have no effect.

 

[stroutmail]

Stroutmail, for my automatic fires suppression system, there is a toggle switch at the helm. It is 2 position and it reads, "Normal" and "Override". Please correct me if I am wrong but, to me the "Normal" means it will automatically release the gas if needed. "Override" means it wont release the gas even if needed. Once the gas starts to be released, switching to the override position will have no effect.

That is the best setup I think. Probably engineered for American Tug. Sea-Fire will build a custom system like that as an "engineered" system. If you go with Fire Boy or Sea-Fire's "pre-engineered" you can get "off the shelf" manual/auto systems that can be set off early manually, but cannot be "overridden". Once they get to 175 F, they go off.

The factory systems that come on a boat new are probably "engineered" to whatever the builder wants. I am told the big yachts and commercial systems have "override" so people performing service or welding won't set off the system. Some of the gases are pretty toxic....that is one of the reasons I like Novec 1230...it is less toxic.

 

[twistedtree]

Stroutmail, for my automatic fires suppression system, there is a toggle switch at the helm. It is 2 position and it reads, "Normal" and "Override". Please correct me if I am wrong but, to me the "Normal" means it will automatically release the gas if needed. "Override" means it wont release the gas even if needed. Once the gas starts to be released, switching to the override position will have no effect.

That's not what the switch does. The switch ONLY controls the engine shutdown function. It does NOT control the automatic release of the suppressant.



The purposed of the switch is to give you a way to restart the engines after the automatic system has shut them down. That's the "override" position.


Release of the suppressant can be either of two ways; automatic based on heat, and/or manual via a pull lever somewhere outside the ER.

 

[BrianG]

Retired Fireman here. I can tell you what I would/wouldn't want. Want: Manual halon system. Something, anything, that squirts water. Stand alone alarm system. Security cam in engine room ($19) Wouldn't want: Auto halon system. propane on the boat. Minimal amount of gasoline stored in vented and secure place.