Friday ponder...

[TexasBryan]

It seems that this forum attracts a lot of not-yet boat owners.

Some of them seem to be chasing a dream, something like this:

They plan to find a low engine hour trawler that has been perfectly maintained, hopefully less than 10 years old, available at a heavily discounted purchase price. Having previously navigated around a lake a few times, they plan to immediately move-aboard and "do the loop".

What's the best way to provide newcomers with information without becoming a dream-killer?

 

[rgano]

Oh, I think we pretty much offer reality to dreamers here on a daily basis. No way to control or influence the tenor of the responses.

 

[SoWhat]

Explain usage of the search feature.
They can then read the 5000 prior threads on the exact same question.

 

[rsn48]

When some one comes on with that kind of question, I respect the person because they are attempting to do their homework. I feel badly when an arrogant so and so's take them on for their naivety. We were all virgins once. At least with the newbie introverts, it takes a degree of courage to come onto a forum in which it is believed everyone is experienced except you (I know that isn't true, you know that isn't true, but they may not know it isn't true).

I have belonged to all manners of forum types - photography, motorcycles, model railroading, biking, running, etc. And there are those who tell some who are posting for the first few times to use the search function and those questions will be answered. But forums are for human interaction and I (and many of you) prefer to talk to others in our search for answers. If Covid has taught us one thing, it is how social we human being are, how we need and crave social interaction.

Whenever I have brought questions here, you can be guaranteed I probably put hours into searching answers on the net. But I still want to hear from experienced types why they think the way they do.

And as hard as it is to believe, there are many people out there who have never really participated in forums, including young folk as well as the obvious old folk. I have no problem in being told to use the search function if the person answered as follows - "here is what I think, this is why I think it, here are some further links that may help you out, and the search function here is your friend."

 

[mncruiser]

Great pondering!

I agree, telling someone to “search” isn’t the reason for having this forum. It surely is handy when I’m looking for something, or there has been a relevant discussion one of you can point me to. I enjoy the discussion and the differing opinions.

Too often we as a society are always looking for someone else to do the work for us. I know people that use google for everything, how they should feel about something, an easy solution to a complex problem.

Sometimes I feel that technology doesn’t give us enough time to just think. Think about your problem or question, maybe for a few days!

I’m working on a snowmobile trailer project (what I get to do when stuff freezes!) and I had settled on a plan I thought was solid. Well after getting into it, speaking with people that know more than me, and just plain making mistakes, the project is vastly different from my original vision.

I appreciate all the experience and knowledge of the people here. I’ve been saved from several poor decisions by many of you.....and have chosen to embrace my poor decisions other times with decent results.

Thank you, all of you, for sharing!

TTFN

 

[CharlieO.]

As the dreamer without a boat yet, I am finding people are not sugar coating the experience here. I use the search function but I'm not that good at it, find conversations that could be 5+ years old and I find most people happy to interact and answer questions. I tell the girlfriend there will be a times of frustration, hard work and bad weather, but there will be the days that make it all worth it. Just remember to keep the dreamers going, they are boat buyers of tomorrow.

 

[PM]

There are actually two types of dreamers. Realistic dreamers and unrealistic ones. A realistic dreamer will be looking for advice on a nice 35 foot boat, have some experience on the water, have some funds put aside and know about costs of things in the real world. I will gladly share advice with this type of person.

The unrealistic dreamer has never been on the water, wants a 50 foot K.K., is 27 years old, and "ready for a change". He lives in his parents basement, has no money and has no clue. My advice to him is "Grow up"

pete

 

[O C Diver]

If you feel like being helpful, answer their questions honestly. If you don't feel like be helpful, ignore the thread. Most go through a learning curve and have to decide if it's realistic. I'd rather be thought of as helping them make their decision as opposed to trying to kill their dream.

Ted

 

[firehoser75]

Dreamers make their own decisions, as well they should. We can only offer advice, based on our knowledge, experiences, or just plain old opinions. Hopefully we are clear on which one we are basing our comments on, and maybe even back up what we are advising with some background like where we learned this information. None of us were born with the knowledge we have accumulated, we all learned it somewhere along the way! I often reference people whom I consider "experts" like Tony Athens, Steve D., Peggy Hall, or Rod Collins (as examples), as these individuals have (over the years) greatly helped me in my quest to learn. I have learned alot from many other boaters over the years (here and elsewhere) as well. For all of their past and present help, I am very grateful, and as such I try to help out others where I can. Kind of a "pay it forward" mentality.
If I don't feel I can add anything useful to the conversation, then I don't post. The odd time, I do post something in an attempt at humour, but I am no comedian so I limit the urge to do that.
As far as I am concerned, there are no dumb questions, except if there is one where the person does not know the answer and is too afraid to ask.
So ask away, and sometimes the answer should be similar to what RSN described: "here is what I think, this is why I think it, here are some further links that may help you out, and the search function here is your friend." Also, newbies should be well aware that there are "many ways to skin a cat" and that one method may not be "better" than another, maybe just different. Incorrect information posted is usually challenged, so a poster should have a good idea of what to believe, but additional research is always a good idea. JMHO.

 

[BruceK]

I`m sure TFers have "killed" many a dream, and saved many a nightmare.

 

[Wayfarer]

900 years ago, when I joined the forum, I was one of those starry eyed dreamer types. I asked the same old questions, and got the same old answers. I sensed that some were annoyed with my newness and ignorance, and I was told on a couple of occasions that ‘google is your friend.’ I thought about replying with something like ‘boomer please, I grew up on the internet!’ but once my moment of indignation passed, I remembered that the vast majority of folks who took the time to respond were very polite, very pleasant, and very helpful. The sort of people I wanted to hang out with at the marina. Really, at the end of the day, when you get right down to brass tacks, when the rubber meets the road, and the cows finally come home, that’s what I was really looking for, a friendly and knowledgeable community of like minded persons that I could learn from and interact with.

You didn’t sugar coat it. You gave it to me straight, warts and all, and I’m grateful for that. When I finally took the big plunge, I was as prepared as I was largely because of yous guys.

 

[stiggy]

This is a common thing I would guess on all forums. There's always going to be old salts and fresh blood newbies. I think someone that joins any discussion asking questions is to be respected. Asking, reading, listening is how we all learn. The search function on any forum can be useful. But the bond building and social interaction is why forums exist. If all wanted to do is read, they'd just pick up a book.

 

[Shrew]

What's the best way to provide newcomers with information without becoming a dream-killer?

The best way to avoid killing the dream is to lie to them.

In reality, it is not truth which kills the dream. It is unrealistic expectations.

 

[rsn48]

With much of our communications, it isn't what we say but how we say it. When I listen to someone explaining how unfair someone reacted to their comment, the first thing that goes through my mind is - sounds innocent enough, but how did you say it.

It is one thing to help, it is another to arrogantly help.

In the OP's example, I would have warned the excited newbie that low hours on an engine is a bad thing, not an advantage. I learned this the hard way when I bought my boat with 350 hours on the engine. Engines not used can degrade quite badly as the engine in my boat did, corrosion was the enemy. I would have told the newbie that boats, engines, and other mechanical things often benefit most from use rather than low usage.

 

[Toki]

I've only got a couple years on powerboats, but a lifetime on sailboats. I'm guessing the sailing community trumps the power community when it comes to dreamers. "I'm going to buy a sailboat and sail around the world!"

My advise there is probably the same as I'd give to a powerboat dreamer. Buy yourself a cheap old beater. Spend a couple years maintaining it, upgrading it, and learning cruising. Live on it for periods of time. Intentionally go out in adverse conditions. Boat year round. Let things break "out there" and figure it out. If after a couple years of that you say "WOW! This is GREAT! I want MORE!", then graduate to the dream. In my experience, in 80% of the cases the dream dies as reality sinks in.

 

[MurrayM]

...In reality, it is not truth which kills the dream. It is unrealistic expectations.

 

[Capn Skippy]

When some one comes on with that kind of question, I respect the person because they are attempting to do their homework. I feel badly when an arrogant so and so's take them on for their naivety. We were all virgins once. At least with the newbie introverts, it takes a degree of courage to come onto a forum in which it is believed everyone is experienced except you (I know that isn't true, you know that isn't true, but they may not know it isn't true).

I have belonged to all manners of forum types - photography, motorcycles, model railroading, biking, running, etc. And there are those who tell some who are posting for the first few times to use the search function and those questions will be answered. But forums are for human interaction and I (and many of you) prefer to talk to others in our search for answers. If Covid has taught us one thing, it is how social we human being are, how we need and crave social interaction.

Whenever I have brought questions here, you can be guaranteed I probably put hours into searching answers on the net. But I still want to hear from experienced types why they think the way they do.

And as hard as it is to believe, there are many people out there who have never really participated in forums, including young folk as well as the obvious old folk. I have no problem in being told to use the search function if the person answered as follows - "here is what I think, this is why I think it, here are some further links that may help you out, and the search function here is your friend."

+1, maybe +100 - as one of those that fall into the upward range of age I find search functions in most forums rarely produce the desired results... but individuals more experienced than me almost always have pertinent opinions and advice - including what search terms might produce a better result than my inept attempts at finding answers to what usually (for me anyway) seem to be minor, maybe major emergencies (like when my wife says "how come that's not fixed already?")

 

[kthoennes]

1. Everything will cost 10 times more than you think.
2. Everything will break regularly. See line 1.

That about covers it for all newbies.

 

[oscar]

Based on your question it appears you don't know what you don't know. Read, learn, rent. Don't buy anything yet.

 

[folivier]

I've been a dreamer for quite a few years and for various reasons will probably never own a trawler.
Here's an interesting tidbit, it seems the young'uns being more comfortable with social media are gravitating more towards facebook than forums. And the reason is: it's easier and quicker for them to ask common questions and get multiple quick answers than it is to ask in a forum and do a search. You would think they would be better at searching but they prefer to ask questions.
If you've ever been in a facebook group and tried to find info on a particular subject you'll probably be back here quickly!

 

[oscar]

If you've ever been in a facebook group and tried to find info on a particular subject you'll probably be back here quickly!

Like fora it all depends on the quality of moderation. I help run a page for a specific brand of motorhome and we run a tight ship. On topic and no BS.... It is very successful.

 

[Glaukos]

I would never advise anyone to buy a cheap old beater of a boat, depending, perhaps, on your definition of "cheap old beater." In my experience, repairs and improvements will cost more than the higher price of a boat that has already had the repairs and improvements made. I'm glad that I did not buy any of the "fixer-uppers" that I looked at when I was searching for a cruising boat. Sunshine Girl was "turn-key" when I bought her but I have still spent ten years and many boat bucks on improvements.

 

[oscar]

I would never advise anyone to buy a cheap old beater of a boat

Unless the boat is unique with positive qualities and/or has some historic value real or perceived. Some things are worth fixing up, even if the ROI is a negative number.

 

[psneeld]

I would never advise anyone to buy a cheap old beater of a boat, depending, perhaps, on your definition of "cheap old beater." In my experience, repairs and improvements will cost more than the higher price of a boat that has already had the repairs and improvements made. I'm glad that I did not buy any of the "fixer-uppers" that I looked at when I was searching for a cruising boat. Sunshine Girl was "turn-key" when I bought her but I have still spent ten years and many boat bucks on improvements.

Like many things in life...it depends.

Its what you get for your money...some things need serious work, others only cosmetic..even then some have the skills to fix anything for a deal, others not so much.

While fixer uppers do cost money, some that already who have done the work think they will get their money and effort back...big mistake.

 

[OldDan1943]

There is a difference between dreams and reality.
Sometimes it is difficult to maintain neutrality.

 

[Toki]

I would never advise anyone to buy a cheap old beater of a boat, depending, perhaps, on your definition of "cheap old beater." In my experience, repairs and improvements will cost more than the higher price of a boat that has already had the repairs and improvements made. I'm glad that I did not buy any of the "fixer-uppers" that I looked at when I was searching for a cruising boat. Sunshine Girl was "turn-key" when I bought her but I have still spent ten years and many boat bucks on improvements.

Respectfully disagree. Everyone with boating dreams pictures themselves in exotic sunny locations on a gleaming yacht. They don't picture themselves laying on the sole up to the elbow in an oily bilge feeling for those lost bolts, or having to cancel their plans at the last minute because the steering went kaput, or having to repeatedly get the $120/hr mechanic out to fix every simple issue, or getting caught in 6' beam seas but having no choice but to gut it out to get home, or having the engine go out between point A and point B and quickly deploying the anchor as they drift toward a lee shore, or ... or ... or ...

Now, if the "dreamer" in question has the means to fork out the bucks for a pristine boat and then have a crew on-board and on-call for any and every issue, then I stand corrected. But I don't think that's what we're talking about here.

 

[Lollygag1]

I would never want to discourage someone from there dreams but feel it is important to level set the expectations so they do not regret the purchase. I find many TF members speak frankly and from experience.

Given the number of new boat owners this year I expect a significant number are going to be regretting the purchase within a year or two as they bit off more than expected.

 

[oscar]

I would never want to discourage someone from there dreams but feel it is important to level set the expectations so they do not regret the purchase.

Most dreamers are very aware of the fact that you win some and you lose some. I have quite a few friends that literally live outside the box, and while their failures are frequent, their "wins" can be truly amazing. We all travel the road our own way. The safe way can be boring.

 

[kthoennes]

I bought an old Carver 3207 from the early 80's as our first bigger boat. It was not turn key by any means, but it had solid bones and we got it for peanuts. Needed a million minor repairs though - for example, every single light bulb, interior and exterior, from the dashboards to the salon to the searchlight, was burned out. The toilets hadn't been operated in years. That boat taught me a huge amount, from the bow pulpit bolts rusting out, to the swim ladder brackets falling off the swim step. Every day was a lesson in boat systems so when we eventually got a bigger, better, newer, more expensive boat, I had already climbed a huge learning curve. In other words, for newbies and dreamers I do think buying a cheap beater boat can have some long term value and serve a worthwhile purpose.

 

[Bryant]

Dreamers

There are actually two types of dreamers. Realistic dreamers and unrealistic ones. A realistic dreamer will be looking for advice on a nice 35 foot boat, have some experience on the water, have some funds put aside and know about costs of things in the real world. I will gladly share advice with this type of person.

The unrealistic dreamer has never been on the water, wants a 50 foot K.K., is 27 years old, and "ready for a change". He lives in his parents basement, has no money and has no clue. My advice to him is "Grow up"

pete

LOL. I remember the guy you are talking about. There was another guy that had no boating experience and was going to buy a 50' trawler and solo it from Australia to Bali or some such thing, live on it and operate a dive business.
I generally just try and be honest with people about my experiences and my opinions about what they are proposing to do. The guy who has never been on a boat that wants to buy something today and start off on a circumnavigation tomorrow needs a straight shot of reality. In all honesty, though, it's like watching your best friend marry someone that everyone but him knows is wrong. People are going to do what they are going to do, regardless of advice. Most of the time, newbies aren't really looking for advice; they are looking for validation. The best we can do is give them the truth and wish them well.