Fuel Contamination (and Racor Filter Help)

[RickB]

... maybe it's a fuel-flow sensor.

Maybe it's a scuttling charge.

 

[markpierce]

Maybe it's a scuttling charge.

Good thing someone disconnected the wires!

 

[Per]

clearly fuel is coming from the tank(s) in position 6 o'clock
the device could be a pump or perhaps it could be a vacum / air sensor?
if it is a pump and it is disconnected it would potentially explain why FW's racor's are not filling up all the way.
the other positions are:
both / fwd / aft / closed
i think no. 5 is a manual bleed pump, can you push it in/out?

 

[markpierce]

Shouldn't fuel pumps usually pull/suck fuel from filters rather than pushing fuel through them.

 

[FlyWright]

Here's a repost of the stbd side:

Here's the port side:

The wires on the "fuel pump" are more obvious in this photo.

Now that I think more about it, why put a water sensor transducer inline on a fuel line. The water sensor must be that wired plug in the bowl. It only exists in one bowl on each side. The engineering drawing below shows this as a water sensor, but the photo cut it off at the bottom. I'll hook my jump start battery to it and see if it pumps. Thanks for the pic, RickB.

Looking at the port side, it looks like there are 2 #5 plungers, unlike the single plunger on the stbd side. Yes, Per, it is spring loaded and pushes in and out but it doesn't seem to vent.

I found this Racor Brochure online. I believe I have model 460 with the R60S (2 micron) filters. (pages 4-5). There's a pretty good cutaway view on page 4. The brochure lists optional water sensor and fuel heater.

Here's an engineering drawing that shows a vent plug like RickB described on the top view of the filter housing. I don't see that vent in the photos. Will have to look closer on the boat.

I plan to remove the selector valve on one side to determine its functions. I'll report back on what I find.

 

[FlyWright]

Shouldn't fuel pumps usually pull/suck fuel from filters rather than pushing fuel through them.

For a supply pump, maybe so...but maybe not so for a priming or transfer pump. Transfer pumps I'm familiar with push the fuel.

 

[Per]

btw, those filters are marked 01-09-06; perhaps time to replace those?

 

[RickB]

Looking at the port side, it looks like there are 2 #5 plungers, unlike the single plunger on the stbd side. Yes, Per, it is spring loaded and pushes in and out but it doesn't seem to vent.

Here's an engineering drawing that shows a vent plug like RickB described on the top view of the filter housing. I don't see that vent in the photos. Will have to look closer on the boat.

I am beginning to think those are not Racor heads. You are correct, there are no vent plugs visible where they would be on a Racor or Parker filter head.

I also wonder if, in the event the above is true, that those plunger devices are vents even though they are on the inlet side. Is it possible the PO fitted those vents(?) in the wrong passage?

 

[FlyWright]

btw, those filters are marked 01-09-06; perhaps time to replace those?

Yes, but they have been great all that time. I have replaced the 2 on the stbd side and will replace the port side filters when the fuel is polished and the tanks are scrubbed.

 

[greysailor]

Good question. When I changed the filters, I filled them with diesel fuel, then spun them on.

Howdy FlyWright.... Not to add confusion while you are working through other issues....But when I read that you pre-filled the fuel filters, I thought I'd offer this advice as I've been called a little anal about this kind of thing by my pals... I also pre-fill my fuel filters especially the ones on my larger engines that hold close to a gallon of diesel, to shorten the priming time. However, I have a pipe nipple for each size filter hub that I have to do maintenance on around here (bus, tractors, generators, boat, truck, etc). When threaded into the filter, it allows me to pour unfiltered diesel into the shell side of the filter only, ensuring any fuel getting to my injector pump is filtered at 2mic. You may already do something like this but just didn't mention it in your post....Just something to think about.. Good luck with your fuel project!

 

[psneeld]

Good question. When I changed the filters, I filled them with diesel fuel, then spun them on.

Howdy FlyWright.... Not to add confusion while you are working through other issues....But when I read that you pre-filled the fuel filters, I thought I'd offer this advice as I've been called a little anal about this kind of thing by my pals... I also pre-fill my fuel filters especially the ones on my larger engines that hold close to a gallon of diesel, to shorten the priming time. However, I have a pipe nipple for each size filter hub that I have to do maintenance on around here (bus, tractors, generators, boat, truck, etc). When threaded into the filter, it allows me to pour unfiltered diesel into the shell side of the filter only, ensuring any fuel getting to my injector pump is filtered at 2mic. You may already do something like this but just didn't mention it in your post....Just something to think about.. Good luck with your fuel project!

Probably talking primary filters which it's OK to fill from a clean container...but you are right to only pump prime all the way through the secondary (usually engine mounted) filter.

 

[FlyWright]

Thanks, Grey Sailor. My engine mounted filter is only about a pint of fuel, so it doesn't take long to fill it with the lift pump.

 

[koliver]

Rick:
I plumbed the day tank into the fuel return from the port engine on a gravity T, with a Walbro pump directly from the tank T'd into the return line ahead of the day tank. The tank fills automatically from the fuel return and when full, the fuel return goes to the main tank as before. When filling from the pump, overflow goes back into the main tank via the fuel return line. If we are sitting for 2 days or more with the stove on, the pump is activated to fill er up. With the second Walbro having failed, I need to run the engine for about an hour to get the capacity of 2 gals into the tank from the fuel return. If we aren't going anywhere, that seems like a huge PITA, hence the query about a different pump. I doubt the Walbro has more than 10 hrs on it, but it is dead

 

[RickB]

R I doubt the Walbro has more than 10 hrs on it, but it is dead

How high is the day tank above the fuel tank or return? It might be a pressure issue with the Walbro. A high pressure (relative term) Facet might work.

Or, to simplify life, get a DD filter priming pump for about $40 bucks and stroke it a few times whenever you think about it at anchor.

 

[koliver]

Rick:

The top of the day tank is about 48" above the Walbro. The problem isn't that the Walbro is laboring to pump to that height, but that it won't come on any more. When it was working, it didn't sound like it was having any difficulty. Now it is not coming on. Yes, I have put a voltmeter on it, so I know it is the pump.
When I get back to town I'll check out my handy Diesel parts store for a filter priming pump. Thanks for the suggestions.

 

[FlyWright]

I spoke with the fuel polisher last night. Estimate:

Scrub both tanks and polish fuel: $200 per side
Cut 2 6-inch inspection holes with 8 inch covers: $250 per side including parts

Total: Approx $900

His plan is to add stainless plates and hardware (including nutplate rings) with nitrile gaskets. (These are aluminum tanks. Here is the galvanic corrosion table.) He drills the bolt holes oversize to permit the nitrile seal to fill the hole around the bolts.

Sounds reasonable? Should I require he use aluminum covers?

 

[markpierce]

That's less than a BOAT$!

 

[Per]

thats a very fair rate imho.
i did that a few years ago and think it was more than a BOAT but they also added a gauge so that I can check the fuel level at the helm.
dont know about the mix og alu and steel - leave it to others with the knowledge.

btw, here is the requested photo:

 

[Delta_JimS]

Al,

Do I get the idea that you have 4 tanks? Fwd, Aft, S/P?

This boat of mine has probably only seen, maybe 1 hour running per 100s sitting in the last 10 yrs. I get just enough sediment in the filters to know I need to have them seriously polished. Don't know that I would have the ports pulled and scrubbed though; having the large clean out ports is a great stress relief.

Can you share who you got the estimate from? I could barely imagine getting my Racors cleaned and filters changed for that price, but I redily admit to being in awe of your Gift of Gab.

Thanks Al,

 

[FlyWright]

Jim, I have just 2 tanks and have dual Racors for each engine. One sits in standby while the other does its magic.

The quote is from Cruising Seas Services. I'm awaiting another quote from Diesel Fuel Filtering. No sweet talking to get those prices, though.

I'm now expecting to move forward with this polishing job in about 2 weeks.

 

[FlyWright]

I got to the boat today to tackle some overdue electrical projects. I needed to correct some ground connections so now my battery monitor is reading all loads and charges on the house battery. I also installed a new power port at the helm.

I took a break and hooked up my jump start battery to the #6 component in the photo above. When connected, it started running, sounding like a pump. RickB was right. I only let it run for a couple seconds since I wasn't planning to purge/vent the filters and didn't want to over-pressurize anything. Since I lack a transfer capability, this got me thinking that a fuel transfer modification might be feasible using these pumps.

I did find some vents on the end of each outlet port fitting on the Racor mount. They are not visible in the photos above and I meant to take new pics, but forgot to go back and do that. Maybe later.

Also, I got an estimate from the second fuel polisher that exceeded $1000, so I'll stick with Cruising Seas for the work. We'll get that done the day after Labor Day. (That's Sept 3 for you non-Yanks.)

 

[markpierce]

Gosh, Al, you're so handy. Without a doubt, sometime I'm going to "lean" on you for help.

Yes, I believe it would be worthwhile if you could transfer fuel between/among tanks as well as fuel your engines from whatever tank you wish.

 

[FF]

Clean fuel polished 24/7/365 does not mean a clean fuel tank.

Its the tank that sloughs off gunk to clog filters.

 

[Capthead]

I woke up early this morning and read the thread. It was nice living vicariously through the whole ordeal and not doing my boat work.

Al, glad you worked it out and on a mooring as well. So tell me about the double moorings. Catalina has double moorings with a single ball. There is a wand you pick up that has a line attached to the bow mooring line. You pull that onto your bow cleat and there is a second line called the sand line. It goes to the rear mooring line. You walk that line down the side of your boat to the stern where you can pull up the stern line and cleat it off. It's very easy as long as you have the boat lined up with both mooring blocks below the boat.

As to fuel pumps, electric pumps push very well but don't suck well at all. Mechanical pumps suck very well and don't push that well. That's why the electric fuel pumps are located near your tank and the mechanical on your engine. In your car, electrics are internal to your tank.

 

[psneeld]

I woke up early this morning and read the thread. It was nice living vicariously through the whole ordeal and not doing my boat work.

Al, glad you worked it out and on a mooring as well. So tell me about the double moorings. Catalina has double moorings with a single ball. There is a wand you pick up that has a line attached to the bow mooring line. You pull that onto your bow cleat and there is a second line called the sand line. It goes to the rear mooring line. You walk that line down the side of your boat to the stern where you can pull up the stern line and cleat it off. It's very easy as long as you have the boat lined up with both mooring blocks below the boat.

As to fuel pumps, electric pumps push very well but don't suck well at all. Mechanical pumps suck very well and don't push that well. That's why the electric fuel pumps are located near your tank and the mechanical on your engine. In your car, electrics are internal to your tank.

I think pushing and pulling is more a function of what kind of pump it is....the reason mechanical pumps are on engines is there is a source of power for the pump right there and none at the fuel tank pump so it's electric. Plus my electric fuel pump on my truck is about half way between my tank and engine.

Many trawler guys have gotten rid of their mechanical engine pumps and put an electric one on their fuel panel which is often closer to the engine than the tanks.

 

[Capthead]

I replaced my mechanical pump on my truck and the GM Diesel forum administrator who is also a professor in mechanical engineering stated those facts. I didn't pull them out of my arse.

 

[RickB]

I only let it run for a couple seconds since I wasn't planning to purge/vent the filters and didn't want to over-pressurize anything.

Not much to fear in that respect ... those pumps generally produce only 3 or 4 psig and will (as designed) stop pumping when the limit is reached. They only pump when there is low or no pressure on the outlet. They have a solenoid coil that bumps back and forth to move a small slug of fuel.

To save a post let me combine another response with this one:

A pump doesn't know or care if it is mechanically operated or electrically. The only difference is positive displacement or a velocity type ... if shutting off the outlet stalls the pump it is positive displacement, otherwise it is the other kind, such as centrifugal. A possitive displacement pump MAY lift better than a velocity type pump, not always and the limit of lift may even be less for a PD pump depending on the fluid. So ... the idea that one is better for suction than the other is bogus.

 

[Art]

Clean fuel polished 24/7/365 does not mean a clean fuel tank.

Its the tank that sloughs off gunk to clog filters.

Fred - You hit another nail on the head!

Only other reason for gunk in fuel that I know of is if pump station has gunk in its main tank and therein transfers its gunk into your tanks... been there, done that... had that happen once when I used the last fuel available at a small, old fuel dock... drained their tanks to the bottom. Since that mess occurred, I try to never go to anything but well used and well serviced fuel docks.

Although many think I'm nuts (that's OK, wife often does too - lol)... before using Soltron I often had dirty gas and some gunk in my filters. Since using Soltron I've had none for years.

From my experiences, Soltron clearly seems to provide cheap insurance for clean tanks and stabilized fuel. If I ever need to change tanks (God forbid) I’ll be interested to learn exactly how clean or dirty my currently 36 yr 100 gal aluminum tanks are... so far so good!

 

[psneeld]

I replaced my mechanical pump on my truck and the GM Diesel forum administrator who is also a professor in mechanical engineering stated those facts. I didn't pull them out of my arse.

Neither did I.....

Thanks Rick...

 

[FlyWright]

Clean fuel polished 24/7/365 does not mean a clean fuel tank.

Its the tank that sloughs off gunk to clog filters.

In addition to having the fuel polished, I am having 8 inch access plates installed and the tanks will be scrubbed. The replacement caps arrived today.