Getting started

[Marc1]

Hi there!

New to the forum, would like to ask some beginners questions.

I've been interested in the motor-sailer concept, particularly the Diesel Duck
For a while.
I've owned a number of smaller pleasure and cargo boats for many years yet have never ventured at sea, always sailed the rivers of the Parana Delta (Argentina).
I live now in Australia and I have always wanted to have a large enough boat that allows me to live on board at anchor for a weekend or sail to the local islands including New Zealand.

The idea of sailing when conditions are favourable and push along with the diesel engine at low revs makes a lot of sense, however I read from some detractors that the cost of purchasing sails and replacing them when they are due, would pay for more fuel than the sails can save.

Also, and this makes it clear that I have no idea of sailing on the open sea, if I decide to go for a week to say Lord How Island, there is a lot of blue open waters between Sydney and Lord How, how will I know the weather is OK for a trip that may take a week? What sort of warning do you get for upcoming bad weather? What sort of bad weather can you manage with this boats?















-- Edited by Marc1 at 05:12, 2008-03-17

 

[Tidahapah]

Now there are many versions of motor sailors in Australia. Some are more biased towards motor and are suitable for small deep water passages such as the lord Howe trip you speak of.
When I built my boat I installed chain plates and a mast post for that purpose , but have never got around to fitting the mast.
Check out Anchorline Marine ( boat brokers) on the Gold Coast . Garth has at least one of this type motor sailor on his books.
I have photos of a couple of others that I can send you.
Weather reports can be obtained on a continual basis either with computer and satalite connection or using HF radio. HF is the cheapest option.
Another good page to check, they had a story in a recent passage Maker Mag a converted Qld trawler style boat named "Lifeline"
Good weather predictions can also be down loaded from the BoM site , Bouy Weather,Seabreeze.com.au,windguru etc.
Hope this is of some help.
keep talking as there is a lot of help to be had here.

Benn

 

[Steve]

Hang around marinas in the area you will be boating, talk to the local guys and see what works for them. Boat owners are usually a friendly bunch, happy to share their experiences and opinions. Maybe there are some local clubs or organizations you can join.
Good luck
Steve

 

[Baker]

First off, welcome to Trawlerforum.

Secondly, I am also a huge fan of the motorsailing idea and an even bigger fan of the Duck series of boats. There is a Diesel Duck onwer on this site and hopefully he/she will chime in. Another boat I am in lust with is the new Nordhavn motorsailor...I think it is a 58??? I certainly don't have the means to acquire such a boat but it is nice to see a mainstream boatbuilder embrace the motorsailing idea.

As far as motosailor vs powerboat cruising....I think it all depends on the type of cruising you plan on doing and how complex the sailplan is. Another factor you need to put into your equation is stability. A passagemaking powerboat is going to have to have some sort of stabilizing hardware...whether active fins or passive paravanes. These do add significant expense and rigging to your boat. With a motosailor, you need neither since the sailplan is your stabilizing force. As the prices of oil keep climbing, the argument for the motorsailor becomes stronger and stronger. Also, I believe, the farther you go, the more sense a motorsailor becomes. Another argument for the motorsailor is they usually have the proper type of no compromise hullform that is the most seakindly and most efficient. Cruising powerboats usually sacrafice hullform for interior space making the cruising powerboat less seakindly and making stabilisers all the more necessary and making them work even harder due to the compromise.

For a motorsailor that is within reach of the American middle class(whatever that is these days).....I have always liked the Cheoy Lee 43 and 53 if not for anything other than asthetics. They are pretty and I like the canoe stern and they just look stout!!!

-- Edited by Baker at 12:38, 2008-03-17

 

[Baker]

Here is a link to a thread with the DD owners...


http://trawlerforum.com/forum.spark?forumID=115492&p=3&topicID=14202241

-- Edited by Baker at 12:56, 2008-03-17

 

[Phil Fill]

I seem to remember there are a lot more motor sailors and sail boat in that area rather then power boats/trawlers.* The Sea Horse yard in Hong Kong is one of the major mfg of the Diesel Duck, which is sort of in your part of the world.* I have been on several and a friend just shipped a duck to the Gulf, and is presently taking it to Florida.* The duck does have the capability to cross oceans.* However the sail appear to be more of an assist to increase the range and/or as a last resort.*

*
The duck is no way a motor sailor in the true sense of the word.**A duck much like many full displacement trawlers* also have/offer the option.* There is a number of full displacement trawler that that sail that come to mind is the 58 Krogen, Royal Passage, the 58 ft Roughwater, which we have, and the diesel duck.*

*
I have talk to a rigger that has just finish rigging a neighbors true motor sailor powered by a 671 which many older single engine trawlers have.* The sail area is at least 2 to 3 time the sail area, compared to the sail area on trawlers.* A motor sailor seem to be beamer with a higher supers structure with an enclose helm area.* My neighbor motor sail is almost as *room as tri level motor boat.* If I knew I was going to be crossing large bodies of water I would have a motor sailor rather than a trawler.

*
Most areas of the world have times of the year that are best to make long passages as the changes of a large storm is unlikely.* In the Puget Sound area with satellites they can see out about 2 weeks with some accuracy, and one week with accuracy. **It appears New Zealand temp, rain and weather is similar to the PNW. *If you sail from Austrailia to New Zealand there is the Tasman ocean current of .5 to 1.0 kts,*so if you have enough food and water you could drift across and the weather also *follows the same pattern, but to get back across would be more difficult as you would have to motor and sail, which in the Puget Sound area most sail boats do.*

*

 

[AdamT]

True, if you read Buehler's book it's clear that the duck's sailing rig is intended solely as an emergency, get-home power source, as well as an occasional assist to the engine.

 

[Codger2]

Back in the 80's, my son and I were looking to buy a boat. I am a trawler guy and he's a rag sailor. Back & forth we went, arguing as to what kind of a boat we would buy. Neither of us gave ground. Finally we ran into a guy (Dick Valdez of Columbia yachts) who suggested a compromise. Here is what Dick designed and built.* 1981 Lancer Motorsailer Boat For Sale She would cruise all day at 8.5 knots and could be single handed sailed. She sailed like a lead balloon but she did sail!

Walt

 

[Baker]

AdamT wrote:

True, if you read Buehler's book it's clear that the duck's sailing rig is intended solely as an emergency, get-home power source, as well as an occasional assist to the engine.

That rig is for stabilization more than anything....

And Seahorse, I have always liked that Lancer.....they are some beamy sumbithes.

 

[Marc1]

Thank you guys for all your answers, I'll keep on asking questions as they come if you don't mind.

Just to get my head around the concept of long passages, ( I do know I must do some sort of course) Say I want to go to NZ or Lord How, at 7 or 8 knots it will take the best part of a week, so what do you do at night? do you keep on going taking someone with you and take turns? Do you just stop in the middle of nowhere? Lights on? Sounds kind of scary

Also...on the matter of sail, I've seen some big ship put up a largish kite to help along when wind is favorable. Is that something that you do on your boat?
Something like www.kiteforsail.com* this...www.kiteforsail.com











-- Edited by Marc1 at 03:09, 2008-03-18

 

[Phil Fill]

It would be advisable to have at least one other person with you, plus radar, GPS electronic charts, and an auto pilot. **One person on watch at all time while the other sleeps close by.* Most long range have a sleeping area/birth in the pilot house.* Radars, GPS and electronic charts have alarm settings.* Most long range boats do not shut down but keep running.*

*
The Eagle for example has a dinette table area that makes into a berth.* The radar has an alarm that anything comes with in a set range an alarm will sound.* The GPS, electronic charts are inter connected the automatic pilot maintain a set course, so once set the boat can run for hours/days basically by itself. **Once out of the marina into open water, I can set the Eagle on auto pilot and it will follow a set course.* If will not make a course change automatically but an alarm will sound and you have to approve before it makes the course change.* When out and about the Eagle is on auto pilot like 95% of the time as it can maintain a straighter course than I can, and that is with 10+ year old technology.* ******

The next question is maintenance of changing filters and oil as every 100 to 150 hour at least the oil should be changed. They make oil change outs that gradually sucks out the old while replacing with new, again done with out shutting down.* So long range boats can basically run by them selves and all you do is monitor.* *

*
With to days satellite and electronics a person could in theory with a computer remotely/control/sent/monitor a boat from their home/office.* I am sure some mega yachts have the capability.* How cool is that?****

That is call kiting,* Kite boarding is very popular off of Everett.* My son is quite good at it.* I have heard some boats/ships have done it, but it would be a might big kite.*

 

[Marc1]

<q>Hawaii inter-island kite powered shipping example:
A 60 meter cargo ship departs Kahului Harbor at 8:00 am and is scheduled to arrive in Honolulu at 4:00pm. The normal 15 to 25 knot northeast trade winds are blowing. After the ship has cleared the air space from the Kahului airport, the captain deploys a 900 hundred square meter kite with the push of a button. Telescoping sections unfold the kite and it flies up to reach operating altitude. The kite harnesses higher wind 50 meters above the water's surface and puts 1170 horsepower directly into the ship. The ship's engines can now be throttled back to save on fuel. The kite is monitored and automatically controlled by a flight computer. The ship arrives in Honolulu at 3:30 pm and saved 50% on Fuel with the use of a kite. Our consistent trade winds in Hawaii offer some of the best conditions in the world to develop and use kite power for fuel saving on all types of ocean going vessels.</q>

 

[FF]

Take a look at a Marco Polo, a Herrishoff design made for fast deep water passages.

The hassle today is not that the layout is dated , by todays marine motorist standards the volume is not up to snuff.

With simple construction a far longer boat could be produced with out added expense , compared to a shorter "modern" wedding cake .

In terms of safety offshore a bigger modern Marco Polo would be many times safer in a blow.

But there would not be room for a pool table or pipe organ .

FF

 

[AdamT]

If it can't accomodate my rock climbing wall I'm not interested.

 

[Charles07]

Marc, it is good that you recognise your lack of experience.
Many folk have some sort of idea of buying a boat and sailing the seven seas and think that it will be just a magic adventure. Years ago there was a Kiwi who built himself a yacht to sail to Australia. His idea of navigation was that you just head off, turn right a bit and left a bit and that's it. Unfortunately he ran up onto a large reef in the way. No idea of how to read a chart etc.
Before you buy a boat I would suggest that you have a plan to acquire as much offshore experience as you can and get as much maritime knowledge as you can. You could start by signing up for a basic coxswains course at a local TAFE College and learn about navigation etc. You should also sign up for a radar course. Go down to your local yacht club and join the offshore racing fleet, they are always looking for crew. Try and find folk who are actually going to do some of the trips you envisage. New Zealand is not just a local island. it is a reasonable sea voyage. (They also speak a very unusual form of unglish

).
Lord Howe Island can be a very difficult trip and it is EASY TO MISS IT!
These trips can be scary as you suggest or wonderful. They can be boring as hell or you can wish you never left home. They can be all of these in the same trip and after you return you will be glad you made the effort. You might find as many have that long sea voyages are not fun at all. There are many large and expensive boats*sitting on moorings where the owners had some grandiose idea of "going to sea" and when they did, hated it.**
I would get all the experience you can over a minimum 12 months and then look for your boat. That way you won't be disappointed, or get hurt!

All the best

(Kiwis out there- I remember one of your former Prime Ministers talking about the large number of Kiwis emigrating to Australia - he said it had the joint benefit of raising the average IQs of both countries!)

 

[Marc1]

Thank you, yes, I heard that the best place to buy a second hand boat is in the Philipines from people with grand plans of world travel that left the boats there and flew home after a few weeks at sea.


"Rising the IQ of both countries" ... mm let me see... for Emigration from NZ to rise their IQ... means that only the lowest IQ is leaving therefore rising the average of the remaining as a consequence....
However for our IQ to be risen, we should recieve a bunch of hgiher IQ people....mm...that means OZ average IQ is below the lowest possible NZ IQ...

Not a compliment isn't it?

Yes, I'll try to get into some courses.
Where abouts are you? What would be a tipical day trip from Sydney? Not many islands around. I suppose one could go down the coast, stop at Ulladalla, batemans bay, Eden...(?)....Manly?

-- Edited by Marc1 at 20:08, 2008-03-18

 

[Gammelvind]

Not surprising it took you a while to work it out,*being from Australia going by your profile, lol.

Cheers from New Zealand