Greenline batteries

[Croix du Sud]

Hi all
Just an info. Two Greenline 39 are homeported in Bandol, next to me. One is 2017 built and suffered a battery collapse in summer 2021 after 4 years of service. The other one is 2018 built and had a similar mishap week past, after 4 years too (one battery element inflated with severe hydrogen diffusion leading to vacate the boat).
In both cases, the local dealer denied any responsibility despite these lithium batteries are covered by a 10-year guarantee.
Furthermore, Replacement batteries banks were unavailable (for the summer boating season, I mean). And cost is killing.
Did any of folks hear about such problems ?
Thanks for reading
JeanL

 

[ScottC]

10 year guarantee? Really?? I would be surprised.

When I bought my GL33, the marketing was that the LiPo battery had a 10 year estimated lifespan. There was never any mention of a 10 year guarantee - but that was a long time ago. Maybe things are different now?? Nevertheless, I would expect to get more than 4 years out of the hybrid battery -- IF PROPERLY CARED FOR.

I got 8 1/2 years out of mine, before I had to order a new one from the factory (SVP Yachts). Mine did not "collapse" but it was showing some initial signs of weakening. A couple of the 13 cells had a bit higher resistance than they should have had. I probably could have gone for another year on it, but I decided to change it out because I was about to embark on a multi-year trip.

By "properly cared for", I mean that the battery was never subjected to overcharging (due to faulty BMS, BMS configuration, Victron charger configuration or Victron solar charge controller configuration). i also mean that the battery was never allowed to go below about 42 volts. On my GL33, the instructions say that it should never be run below 44 volts. If the voltage is allowed to get too low, the battery will collapse and most likely will not be able to be revived. I know there are steps to revive batteries that have collapsed from too-low voltage, but success is not always guaranteed.

I've heard about a couple of GL33's that had to have their batteries replaced due to collapse as a result of the storage yard not applying a maintenance charge when they should have (for example once per month). Leaving the battery on Float at ~54v all year around not ideal either. The battery's life is enhanced if it is kept somewhere closer to 48v when sitting for long periods of time. Personally, I have my storage yard plug in the shore power for 1 day about once per month, which results in roughly an average monthly voltage of 48-50v. Also, you want to make sure no charging is done at 5 degrees C or below. Doing so could also harm the battery.

Of course, it could really be possible that a cell in the battery has a manufacturing defect, but I have been told that if that's the case, the problem would manifest itself very early in the battery's life. I honestly don't know whether that's true or not, but it seems to make sense.

And yes, they are fiendishly expensive. I contemplated going my own route with a local supplier of a different battery, but decided against it in the end, as I wanted a "plug-and-play" replacement, complete with new BMS and updated configuration from the factory. This was because, as I already mentioned, I was about to embark on a multi-year trip with the boat. It was also because I did not want to have any exposure from an insurance/liability standpoint because I changed the factory spec'd system to something else.


Given the size of the battery investment, I jumped at the opportunity to install a Victron Global Remote accessory when it hit the market many years ago. With this, I can get sms and e-mail alerts if the voltage ever becomes too low. I can also get about a zillion other bits of information via an associated App, as well as SMS commands. So, when I'm expecting a storage yard to apply a charge monthly and they don't, for whatever reason, I can see it immediately and call them on the phone.

 

[Comodave]

The LiFePO4s that I put in our last boat had a lifetime warranty. 10 years seems short. We used Lion Energy ones. They estimated 3500+ cycles to 20% I think.

 

[Croix du Sud]

Greenline troubles

Thanks Scott and Dave
Life expectancy ? Guarantee ? A possible confusion, deliberate or not ….
Scott, your statement is a gold mine and I certainly will pass this info on to the Greenline owners here.
Many thanks on behalf of both of them
All the best
JeanL

 

[ScottC]

I would also highly recommend the installation of one of these (if they have a REC BMS) or the equivalent if their BMS is from another manufacturer:
https://www.nothnagel-marine.de/media/downloads/REC-BMS/REC-BMS_UserManualLCD.pdf


https://www.rec-bms.com/rec-accessories/


This is how I knew that the resistance was high on a couple of my cells (along with factory review of my data). This is also how one can tell if a cell is beginning to collapse and proactively prevent any emergency/dangerous situation.


I don't readily find these devices for sale on line anymore. It is my guess that the newer Greenlines come with a newer REC (or other manufacturer) BMS that has Blue Tooth capability and can provide this data directly to a smartphone app.

 

[Gypsy Island]

Hi all
Just an info. Two Greenline 39 are homeported in Bandol, next to me. One is 2017 built and suffered a battery collapse in summer 2021 after 4 years of service. The other one is 2018 built and had a similar mishap week past, after 4 years too (one battery element inflated with severe hydrogen diffusion leading to vacate the boat).
In both cases, the local dealer denied any responsibility despite these lithium batteries are covered by a 10-year guarantee.
Furthermore, Replacement batteries banks were unavailable (for the summer boating season, I mean). And cost is killing.
Did any of folks hear about such problems ?
Thanks for reading
JeanL

Hi Croix du Sud,

here in Germany we had a really big explosion of a Greenline 33 in Marina Minden in July 2017. It was filmed by a dronepilot. You can watch the video on this site: http://https://www.boote-forum.de/redirect.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mt.de%2Flokales%2Fminden%2F21851359_Drohnenpilot-filmt-Explosion-unabsichtlich-bete-fuer-die-Verletzten.html&token=5c2724588a818587b7feffb9ea7c2621

As i remember, the owner had issues with the battery but could not deal with it, so a technician came and isolated the battery from the boats electrics. Unfortunately a few days later, the battery started to fume, so the fire department was alarmed. Just at the time when two firefighters were on the boat, the explosion happend. Both lost their legs but survived ...very sad story.

And there was a second greenline burning in germany, but i don't remember the exact circumstances. There should be a video on YouTube.

Gyp

 

[ScottC]

I had heard about these two in Germany and yes, I found this distressing at the time. But, I’ve not heard about anything like these two cases before or since.

I have also heard about lithium-based battery fires on the occasional Tesla. And then there were the jets...

My conclusion? Take great care of your battery. Make sure it is not abused. Monitor it (hence my BMS LCD monitor recommendation). Be proactive if any cell voltages or resistances look “off”. Don’t ignore any weird battery performance issues if they appear. I know for a fact that one of these German boats was a charter. We all know how much "experienced" attention these batteries are likely to get by charter users…

 

[CMS]

Hi all
Just an info. Two Greenline 39 are homeported in Bandol, next to me. One is 2017 built and suffered a battery collapse in summer 2021 after 4 years of service. The other one is 2018 built and had a similar mishap week past, after 4 years too (one battery element inflated with severe hydrogen diffusion leading to vacate the boat).
In both cases, the local dealer denied any responsibility despite these lithium batteries are covered by a 10-year guarantee.
Furthermore, Replacement batteries banks were unavailable (for the summer boating season, I mean). And cost is killing.
Did any of folks hear about such problems ?
Thanks for reading
JeanL

Greenline uses Lithium Polymer batteries not LiFePO4. Li-Po is a highly volatile lithium chemistry. We had a customer approach us to do some work on his Greenline. Sorry, no, we won't touch Li-Po on a boat.. LiFePO4 sure, but no way on Li-Po.

 

[Northwest]

We are considering getting our first boat, and live in the Seattle area. We are a family of 4 with fast-growing kids at age 8-10. We would use the boat frequently for tooling around Lake Washington, and a few times a year, heading out on the salt for island hopping for a week or so at a time. We don't care about going fast unless it is to outrun weather, the point of boating for us is the journey, the family time, and the scenery.

My wife and I really like the idea of Hybrid for short days out for a floating picnic on the lake, navigating the marinas and anchorages in the islands without the diesel noise and smell, and trying to save some fuel. We also like the idea of a high-capacity battery for running electric loads at anchor without running a generator.

We are really tempted to get a Greenline 40 hybrid, especially if we could find one on the market used in the US (I don't see any listed at the moment). My concerns are the following, and I would appreciate any wisdom from current owners or others with expertise.

1. Does GL really use LiPo batteries, and if so, how is that not a safety concern? Why would they not have used LiFePO4 instead? Is this something I should worry about, or should I just trust GL that they know what they are doing?
2. How fussy are the batteries? I would want to leave the boat plugged in on shore power in a local marina when not in use, but also to maintain a reasonable state of charge, and it can get below 5 degrees C in my area in the winter (but almost never below -5). I was hoping to just use some electric heaters to avoid winterizing the boat so we can use it year-round, so perhaps I could just use those to maintain an internal temperature that is sufficient to keep the batteries happy?
3. For those who got the hybrid drive, would you definitely do so again? Does anyone regret getting it, and if, so why?

I appreciate anyone willing to share their perspective.

-Tim

 

[DavidM]

As CMS says above, stay away from Li-PO batteries which is what are used in GL boats. They are much, much more prone to fires than LiFePO4 batteries.

David

 

[twistedtree]

Also check for insurance coverage in advance. I know one company that won't cover Greenline's.

 

[jllehman86]

I am an actual Greenline 39 owner.
- The batteries are LiFePO4. I have verified this from 2 different sources including the owner's manual. Perhaps they have switched to these in later production runs. I had no trouble getting the boat insured by Chubb. I am not sure where some of the other information is coming from but it seems inconsistent. Greenline has been making hybrids for over a decade, they are definitely up the learning curve and seem to have their act together.
- You can definitely leave the boat plugged into shore power and let them stay on charge. I also use small heaters on in the boat but not for the batteries, just to keep the moisture and mildew away. (Also in PNW.)
- I would definitely get a hybrid drive again for reasons I have articulated elsewhere in the forum. However, I would probably add an additional battery pack for additional flexibility.

Jon

 

[Slowmo]

We are considering getting our first boat, and live in the Seattle area. We are a family of 4 with fast-growing kids at age 8-10. We would use the boat frequently for tooling around Lake Washington, and a few times a year, heading out on the salt for island hopping for a week or so at a time. We don't care about going fast unless it is to outrun weather, the point of boating for us is the journey, the family time, and the scenery.

My wife and I really like the idea of Hybrid for short days out for a floating picnic on the lake, navigating the marinas and anchorages in the islands without the diesel noise and smell, and trying to save some fuel. We also like the idea of a high-capacity battery for running electric loads at anchor without running a generator.

We are really tempted to get a Greenline 40 hybrid, especially if we could find one on the market used in the US (I don't see any listed at the moment). My concerns are the following, and I would appreciate any wisdom from current owners or others with expertise.

1. Does GL really use LiPo batteries, and if so, how is that not a safety concern? Why would they not have used LiFePO4 instead? Is this something I should worry about, or should I just trust GL that they know what they are doing?
2. How fussy are the batteries? I would want to leave the boat plugged in on shore power in a local marina when not in use, but also to maintain a reasonable state of charge, and it can get below 5 degrees C in my area in the winter (but almost never below -5). I was hoping to just use some electric heaters to avoid winterizing the boat so we can use it year-round, so perhaps I could just use those to maintain an internal temperature that is sufficient to keep the batteries happy?
3. For those who got the hybrid drive, would you definitely do so again? Does anyone regret getting it, and if, so why?

I appreciate anyone willing to share their perspective.

-Tim

I think you really need to think of what you want to do with the boat and whether you should limit your selection to the Greenline. There's been enough said about battery concerns elsewhere so I'll focus other factors. If fuel savings is your driver on Greenline I can assure you that fuel cost is a minor part of ownership cost, at least in my experience. The other issue with Greenline is that early versions of it used marinized VW TDi engines. This may be common in Europe but in the US and Canada they're not a common marine engine meaning parts and service may be difficult, especially away from a big city. Lastly the Greenline market is really small, so your selection of used craft is limited. Boats like Grand Banks are common and you have a selection of several at any given time, but setting your heart on something like a Greenline could mean a big delay The fun part of having a boat is being out there, the propulsion system is secondary. Your children are the perfect age to introduce them to boating, before teenagerdom sets in.

 

[twistedtree]

I am an actual Greenline 39 owner.
- The batteries are LiFePO4. I have verified this from 2 different sources including the owner's manual. Perhaps they have switched to these in later production runs. I had no trouble getting the boat insured by Chubb. I am not sure where some of the other information is coming from but it seems inconsistent. Greenline has been making hybrids for over a decade, they are definitely up the learning curve and seem to have their act together.
- You can definitely leave the boat plugged into shore power and let them stay on charge. I also use small heaters on in the boat but not for the batteries, just to keep the moisture and mildew away. (Also in PNW.)
- I would definitely get a hybrid drive again for reasons I have articulated elsewhere in the forum. However, I would probably add an additional battery pack for additional flexibility.

Jon

The material I am reading from Greenline says the batteries are Li-Po which is lithium ion polymer. That is NOT LiFePO4. LFP is the accepted abbreviation for LiFePO4

 

[sunchaser]

The material I am reading from Greenline says the batteries are Li-Po which is lithium ion polymer. That is NOT LiFePO4. LFP is the accepted abbreviation for LiFePO4

+1
I just read the same on Greenline’s web site.

 

[jllehman86]

My boat is on the West Coast and I won't be out there for a few weeks. I will physically check the batteries and report back what is actually on the boat. Stay tuned.

Jon

Note: They are a series of individual cells combined within a large case including a battery management system. I may need to open the case and check the cells if there are not clear markings on the larger case.

 

[sunchaser]

My boat is on the West Coast and I won't be out there for a few weeks. I will physically check the batteries and report back what is actually on the boat. Stay tuned.

Jon

Note: They are a series of individual cells combined within a large case including a battery management system. I may need to open the case and check the cells if there are not clear markings on the larger case.

Jon
What battery and specs should be clearly visible on the battery covers. As late as a year ago Greenline boat tests touted their LiPO batteries. An email direct to Greenline should answer the question. There are drop in aftermarket LFPs for some models being advertised, a worthwhile conversion it would seem.

CMS (post #8) is one smart guy. When he talks batteries, we should listen.

 

[ScottC]

My boat is on the West Coast and I won't be out there for a few weeks. I will physically check the batteries and report back what is actually on the boat. Stay tuned.

Jon

Note: They are a series of individual cells combined within a large case including a battery management system. I may need to open the case and check the cells if there are not clear markings on the larger case.

I would NOT open that case, if I were you. You risk voiding any warranty (if you have any left) and may even risk "voiding" any fire-related insurance coverage.

 

[twistedtree]

I would NOT open that case, if I were you. You risk voiding any warranty (if you have any left) and may even risk "voiding" any fire-related insurance coverage.

Agreed. They are likely liquid cooled, etc. I recall that BMW’s EV pack was being used in one of these boats, and it may be Greenline. Propulsion systems like this are highly engineered, and I doubt a drop in replacement is really viable.

 

[C. Monaghan]

We are also Greenline 39 Hybrid owners and the owners manual states that the battery is a LiFePO4 battery.

 

[Iggy]

About 4 years ago we saw 2 Greenline boats at the Newport boat show. They could not tell me the cost of replacement batteries. Just that there was a 5 year warranty and should last 10 years.

I told them, I like the boat but with out the cost of the batteries I must walk away. After one year of asking I never did get an answer.

 

[Northwest]

Oh, cool, thank you for sharing. Is there a link or a picture you could send over? I was able to find the Greenline 40 and 33 manuals online but they both seem to only refer to LiPo. Maybe these are out of date. I also sent a reach-out to Greenline to see if they can provide any more detail.

https://www.manualslib.com/manual/892495/Greenline-40.html?page=94#manual
https://www.manualslib.com/manual/1266138/Greenline-Greenline-33.html?page=81#manual

 

[twistedtree]

We are also Greenline 39 Hybrid owners and the owners manual states that the battery is a LiFePO4 battery.

Any chance you could snap a picture of that section of the manual? It's a notable contradiction to the other info available from Greenline.

 

[C. Monaghan]

It was easier for me to just look at the online brochure. Here are some of the specs for the Greenline 39 Hybrid (pictured) and a link to the brochure:

https://www.yachtsalesinternational....com/2022/02/GreenlineBrochure2022smaller.pdf

 

[Fletcher500]

From the PDF you posted.

 

[C. Monaghan]

Yes, they use the term “LiPo” when referring to the LiFePO4 batteries. Our 2019 Greenline 39 has six Group 31 AGM batteries: two for the bow thrusters, two for the stern thrusters, one starting battery and one service battery. Then there’s the big LiFePO4 battery that runs the electric motor and all the 110V consumables onboard. It also charges the other six batteries via an inverter and battery charger. It is charged by the diesel engine (Volvo Penta D3 220) while underway and by four big solar panels on the coachroof. We seldom need to plug into shore power.

 

[C. Monaghan]

The different types of LiPo batteries

Different types of Lithium Polymer batteries:

https://www.grepow.com/blog/different-types-of-lithium-polymer-batteries.html

Lithium cobalt oxide battery (LiCoO2, LCO battery)
Lithium-ion ternary battery (NCA, NMC battery)
Lithium-ion manganese oxide battery battery（LiMn2O4, LMO battery）
Lithium iron phosphate battery (LiFePO4, LFP battery)
Lithium cobalt oxide battery (LiCoO2, LCO battery)

 

[DDW]

The manual page you have posted shows that LiFePo4 is used for the solar/power management, 4.1kW/h for house use. It also shows the hybrid drive as a battery up to 26.6 kW/h, type not specified.

Nothing there to suggest that the hybrid drive battery is anything other than LiPo.

 

[twistedtree]

From the PDF you posted.

Well, that seems crystal clear. The hybrid/electric drive battery is LiPo, and the "house battery" is LFP (LiFePO4).


LiPo is NOT LiFePO4.

 

[C. Monaghan]

Well, that seems crystal clear. The hybrid/electric drive battery is LiPo, and the "house battery" is LFP (LiFePO4).


LiPo is NOT LiFePO4.

There are many types of LiPo battery, Lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4) is just one of them. See the link below:

https://www.grepow.com/blog/different-types-of-lithium-polymer-batteries.html

The LiFePO4 battery is the battery that runs the Mahle electric motor, gets charged by the solar panels and the engine, runs the inverter and the battery charger, and provides the power for the 110 Volt consumables, which is available 24/7 (just like in your house) — refrigerator/freezer, microwave oven, induction cooktop, all power outlets.

The house service battery is a Group 31 AGM battery the powers the 12 Volt consumables like the LED lights (navigation and cabin), electronics, the water pump, graywater pump, bilge pump, bilge blower.