Hard starting Lehman 120, again

[Tator]

I am anxiously awaiting the results of your efforts. I wish I could be joining you by trying all of these suggestions on my boat (at least the ones that I haven't already tried). Alas, my boat is in AK and I'm in WA with no idea when I might be able to get up there (sigh).

My gut feeling is it is injector pump/fuel related. I'm not familiar enough with the inside workings of the pump to really diagnose. I wonder how much work it would be to swap over the pumps with each other? It would seem that bad valve lash, bad head torques and bad compression would have to be really bad to keep it from starting-bad enough that it would not run well when it did start and show other signs of the problem when running. This doesn't seem to be the case with our engines, but I'm willing to listen to criticism of my reasoning.

Tator

 

[SteveK]

With the engine 24 hours cold , I would give a quick squirt of starting fluid, to see the results.

He has done that and it started.

Engine difficult to start cold, cold start button does not stay engaged.

With two engines, one that works, I would swap over working parts to fast track a resolution. There is no point looking for another potential problem while ignoring a known problem.

Have someone operate cold start on working engine while watching at engine to see what happens, what moves, what changes. then repeat other engine to see what is not working the same.

 

[Solly]

Believe me I know how frustrating this is. My suggestion is to start over. I've read all you have done. Do it again, 1 thing at a time. Double check everything that was done to be sure it was done right. At least you can compare some things to the other engine.
Start with the basics. A diesel needs fuel, air, and compression.
Is the shutoff mechanism working properly ?
Is it cranking fast enough ? I know it has new batteries. Being rebuilt it might have more resistance and cranking slower.
Air filter ?
A compression test will rule out valves or rings. I know it was rebuilt.
Disconnect the fuel line right b-4 the injection pump. Crank and look for flow and submerge it in some diesel and look for bubbles. I like the idea of the electric pump directly to the injector pump to bypass the filters and lift pump temporarily.
Double check the pump timing and bleed everything again.
Look closely at everything and confirm that it's right. I've read most problems with a diesel are fuel related but get the basics right first. Eliminate things.

 

[Comodave]

As has been said multiple times, if the cold start button does not work, fix it first and see what happens. Don’t look past the obvious.

 

[SteveK]

Believe me I know how frustrating this is. My suggestion is to start over. I've read all you have done. Do it again, 1 thing at a time. Double check everything that was done to be sure it was done right. At least you can compare some things to the other engine.
Start with the basics. A diesel needs fuel, air, and compression.
Is the shutoff mechanism working properly ?
Is it cranking fast enough ? I know it has new batteries. Being rebuilt it might have more resistance and cranking slower.
Air filter ?
A compression test will rule out valves or rings. I know it was rebuilt.
Disconnect the fuel line right b-4 the injection pump. Crank and look for flow and submerge it in some diesel and look for bubbles. I like the idea of the electric pump directly to the injector pump to bypass the filters and lift pump temporarily.
Double check the pump timing and bleed everything again.
Look closely at everything and confirm that it's right. I've read most problems with a diesel are fuel related but get the basics right first. Eliminate things.

Why do you ignore the non function cold start button?

 

[catalinajack]

My bet is on the engine-mounted fuel pump. Using an electric pump and by-passing the mechanical pump may do the trick. May I suggest that anything you are planning to try is done one at a time. If you do two or more and it works you will never know for certain which was the problem.

 

[Redhook98]

Why do you ignore the non function cold start button?

I am not ignoring anything. I simply have not been back to the boat to work on it, nor am I very familiar with it at this point. I have never used it on the other one (except to test it), even in the coldest of our winter this year. I had assumed it was not a normally used function. ?

 

[High Wire]

Who makes these "cold start button controls"? Can you swap them to the other engine to see if the problem moves?

 

[SteveK]

I am not ignoring anything. I simply have not been back to the boat to work on it, nor am I very familiar with it at this point. I have never used it on the other one (except to test it), even in the coldest of our winter this year. I had assumed it was not a normally used function. ?

Red
That was directed at Solly, giving you lots of advice other than fix the cold start.
Now Jack is suggesting you install a DC fuel pump, which you already have done before fixing the cold start.

 

[SteveK]

.........I had assumed it was not a normally used function. ?

while it may normally not be needed, some of us are suspecting that it is causing the problem, the STOP may not be completely releasing which may kick out the cold start from working.
That is why I suggested you watch the operation on the good engine (without cranking) to see what it does when someone above pressing the cold start, then go to other and see if the same happens on the engine not starting cold while someone above presses the cold start. You just may see an action occurring that you can then fix. OR you may be able to manually hold the cold start at engine while someone above tries to start. If it starts easy you have the solution. Forget the other stuff until you resolve that.

 

[syjos]

On a Lehman 120 the cold start button is located on the injection pump. It supplies extra fuel during cold starts. There is no button at the helm to activate the cold start button.

I never use the cold start. I gain the same effect by pushing the throttle all the way open when starting a cold engine.

I had a hard start with cold engine problem last summer on my FL 120. I went through the bleeding, changing filters and even changed the fuel pump with no success.

I noticed that the stop lever on the injection pump was not pushed all the way in. I pushed it all the way in and held it as the engine was started and it fired right up. Once the engine warmed up, the engine would start without fiddling with the start lever. The heat must expand something in the injection pump or the solenoid to allow the engine to start.

i adjusted the solenoid to stop lever connector by a turn and no more starting issues when cold. The adjustment is kinda' finicky. Too much adjustment and it will not stop the engine and not enough and the engine will not start. The sweet spot is about 1/2 turn of the adjustment lever.

 

[SteveK]

On a Lehman 120 the cold start button is located on the injection pump. It supplies extra fuel during cold starts. There is no button at the helm to activate the cold start button.

I never use the cold start. I gain the same effect by pushing the throttle all the way open when starting a cold engine.

I had a hard start with cold engine problem last summer on my FL 120. I went through the bleeding, changing filters and even changed the fuel pump with no success.

I noticed that the stop lever on the injection pump was not pushed all the way in. I pushed it all the way in and held it as the engine was started and it fired right up. Once the engine warmed up, the engine would start without fiddling with the start lever. The heat must expand something in the injection pump or the solenoid to allow the engine to start.

i adjusted the solenoid to stop lever connector by a turn and no more starting issues when cold. The adjustment is kinda' finicky. Too much adjustment and it will not stop the engine and not enough and the engine will not start. The sweet spot is about 1/2 turn of the adjustment lever.

Thanks, I asked early on if it was a solenoid relay to helm, no answer. I have cable remote to helm. I was going on premise someone changed to an electric control. The bolded is where I was headed. Carry on.

 

[syjos]

Thanks, I asked early on if it was a solenoid relay to helm, no answer. I have cable remote to helm. I was going on premise someone changed to an electric control. The bolded is where I was headed. Carry on.

I mentioned the stop lever/solenoid issue on post #9.

Try disconnecting the connection from solenoid to stop lever and push the stop lever all the way till it stops and try starting.

My 120 does take some time to start when cold. I run the starter for 10 - 15 seconds with the throttle all the way to the stop to warm the cylinders. Let it rest for maybe 30 seconds and run the starter again. It usually starts the second time after the interior of the engine is slightly warmer.

When the engine is warm or the outside temperature is above 50 degrees, the engine starts quick.

I have a 200 pound flywheel on my 120 FL which cause the engine to spin slowly at first until the speed builds.

 

[Redhook98]

All good advice, thank you. I did adjust the stop linkage by two turns, but have not had a chance to try it when cold yet yet. Started and shut down when warm just fine though. Tomorrow when I get the fuel lines back together, I will give it a go.

 

[syjos]

After bleeding the injection pump, start the engine and bleed the injection pipes to individual cylinders.

I place a towel over the big nuts on the side of the head that the injection pipes go into and loosen the nut 1/4 turn or until the engine loses RPM or stumbles, one cylinder at a time. Tighten the nut, the speed should pick back up and go to the next cylinder. That will insure no air in the pipes.

If you loosen the big nut and the engine does not lose speed or stumble, that cylinder is not firing. Or if one cylinder does not slow as much as other cylinders, that cylinder is not operating at 100%. The concept is similar to disconnecting spark plug wires on a gas engine to locate a dead cylinder. I check it couple times a year to make sure all cylinders are firing.

 

[Xsbank]

I believe the injectors are self-bleeding.

I want you to try the cold-start procedure because it supplies a lot of fuel to the cold engine and if you get a good start you know the leak is in or after the Simms pump.

Have you serviced the Simms yet? Is the oil level correct?

 

[NWSeadog]

If the problem is from a slow leak wouldn't starting the engine from cold then immediately shutting it down before it had a chance to warm then trying to start it again tell you something?

 

[syjos]

I believe the injectors are self-bleeding.

I found that it takes awhile for the injectors to self bleed. I think the air trapped in the injection line compresses and keeps the injectors valve from "popping" open.

I'm talking about injectors on a mechanical injection system as opposed to common rail.

 

[Redhook98]

I believe the injectors are self-bleeding.

I want you to try the cold-start procedure because it supplies a lot of fuel to the cold engine and if you get a good start you know the leak is in or after the Simms pump.

Have you serviced the Simms yet? Is the oil level correct?

Yes, oil was changed. No diesel found within the pump oil. It is a rebuilt IP. No, I have no further info than that on it.

 

[Redhook98]

If the problem is from a slow leak wouldn't starting the engine from cold then immediately shutting it down before it had a chance to warm then trying to start it again tell you something?

That's a damn good point. Good perspective. Thanks!



Problem is, now our town is not allowing us to even go to our boats. We'll see what happens.

 

[Redhook98]

After bleeding the injection pump, start the engine and bleed the injection pipes to individual cylinders.

I place a towel over the big nuts on the side of the head that the injection pipes go into and loosen the nut 1/4 turn or until the engine loses RPM or stumbles, one cylinder at a time. Tighten the nut, the speed should pick back up and go to the next cylinder. That will insure no air in the pipes.

If you loosen the big nut and the engine does not lose speed or stumble, that cylinder is not firing. Or if one cylinder does not slow as much as other cylinders, that cylinder is not operating at 100%. The concept is similar to disconnecting spark plug wires on a gas engine to locate a dead cylinder. I check it couple times a year to make sure all cylinders are firing.

Will try this after the fuel system is put back together and I mess with the stop linkage some more. Either way, it should be done. Thanks for the procedures.

 

[Solly]

Somebody asked why I didn't suggest fixing the cold start system. I agree it should be done. We all want all systems working as they should.
But.... It's a rebuilt engine and pump, compression and fueling will never be better. If it's right. Also it's been a fairly warm spring so far. I just feel that the engine should start without it. Does the other engine start w/o using the cold start ? By all means swap the cold start parts between engines and try. Do Ford Lehmans have glow plugs or just shoot extra fuel with the cold start ? If just fuel would opening the throttle more do the same thing ? Just trying to give general ideas that apply to any engine to maybe help.
I know what you mean about no joy. Our boat is on the hard and no idea when we might get to it this year.

 

[Redhook98]

Somebody asked why I didn't suggest fixing the cold start system. I agree it should be done. We all want all systems working as they should.
But.... It's a rebuilt engine and pump, compression and fueling will never be better. If it's right. Also it's been a fairly warm spring so far. I just feel that the engine should start without it. Does the other engine start w/o using the cold start ? By all means swap the cold start parts between engines and try. Do Ford Lehmans have glow plugs or just shoot extra fuel with the cold start ? If just fuel would opening the throttle more do the same thing ? Just trying to give general ideas that apply to any engine to maybe help.
I know what you mean about no joy. Our boat is on the hard and no idea when we might get to it this year.

Cold start system is part of the injection pump. At this point I would rather do without than make the swap. No small endeavor. No glow plugs in Lehmans 2715E motors. Other motor starts just fine without the cold start function.

 

[SteveK]

Cold start system is part of the injection pump. At this point I would rather do without than make the swap. No small endeavor. No glow plugs in Lehmans 2715E motors. Other motor starts just fine without the cold start function.

Yes I see that now and probably an automatic one as noted here. That leaves the adjustment for the stop since it does not stay pushed in.

 

[Xsbank]

The point of the cold start is to bypass the restrictions of the injection pump, possibly out of time or suffering air leaks, to see if the engine starts promptly. This will isolate your start problem to the injection pump or the Fuel distribution system and prove that the engine was properly assembled.

Of course you don’t need it on a normal engine. I never used mine, Except For Toubleshooting!!

After all, you did come to us for help?

 

[Ski in NC]

Check for air in the fuel line going to inj pump already.

 

[Redhook98]

Looks like the solution(s) was found. I read on another site that another symptom of air in the lines is surging after eventually getting it started. Mine would surge until warmed up. It fluctuated about 200 rpm up and down rather quickly (yes, I did leave that out of my initial messages as I assumed that was normal after listening to others). Along with the reasoning from all of you, I replaced the fuel lines and deleted the mechanical pump. After installing 3/8 inch A1 rated line from the primary filter (Racor 1000) to the new electric fuel pump, and then from the FP to the dual spin-on secondary filters, it started right up after bleeding. Actually, it started up within 5 seconds. Hadn't been started in a few days at last. Ambient temp in the ER was 50 degrees F. I kept it at 65 all winter and had these issues. Surging is only 40-50 rpm wen warming up now.

Also noticed that I could take a whole 5 turns out of the Stop linkage and was still able to shut it down normally. This could have been part of the issue as well. Still maybe not 100% adjusted correctly, but works fine.

Thank you all very much. I am still going to bleed the injectors, but I think the main issue has been resolved. I am going to get with Brian when all this Virus **** is over and see what he thinks about the Cold Start button not staying in. I am not going to take apart the IP to investigate, right now.

 

[syjos]

Looks like the solution(s) was found. I read on another site that another symptom of air in the lines is surging after eventually getting it started. Mine would surge until warmed up. It fluctuated about 200 rpm up and down rather quickly (yes, I did leave that out of my initial messages as I assumed that was normal after listening to others). Along with the reasoning from all of you, I replaced the fuel lines and deleted the mechanical pump. After installing 3/8 inch A1 rated line from the primary filter (Racor 1000) to the new electric fuel pump, and then from the FP to the dual spin-on secondary filters, it started right up after bleeding. Actually, it started up within 5 seconds. Hadn't been started in a few days at last. Ambient temp in the ER was 50 degrees F. I kept it at 65 all winter and had these issues. Surging is only 40-50 rpm wen warming up now.

Also noticed that I could take a whole 5 turns out of the Stop linkage and was still able to shut it down normally. This could have been part of the issue as well. Still maybe not 100% adjusted correctly, but works fine.

Thank you all very much. I am still going to bleed the injectors, but I think the main issue has been resolved. I am going to get with Brian when all this Virus **** is over and see what he thinks about the Cold Start button not staying in. I am not going to take apart the IP to investigate, right now.

Good Job!

I really don't think the cold start feature is worth spending any time on it. I've never used it on mine. Starts with throttle advanced all the way, which is what Brian will probably tell you to do. It seems like a hassle to go into the engine room to activate the cold start feature.

I keep the engine room at about 50 degrees in the winter and the engine starts slow but will start every time without using the start feature.

 

[Solly]

Well done !!

 

[catalinajack]

Not to crow about it, but in Post #66 I suggested to get rid of the mechanical pump. I am certainly no expert but you already had an electric pump in hand and installing one really isn't much work so why not eliminate the mechanical pump as the source of your problem. You must be elated. I have cold start buttons. Never knew what they were. Never needed them.

Looks like the solution(s) was found. I read on another site that another symptom of air in the lines is surging after eventually getting it started. Mine would surge until warmed up. It fluctuated about 200 rpm up and down rather quickly (yes, I did leave that out of my initial messages as I assumed that was normal after listening to others). Along with the reasoning from all of you, I replaced the fuel lines and deleted the mechanical pump. After installing 3/8 inch A1 rated line from the primary filter (Racor 1000) to the new electric fuel pump, and then from the FP to the dual spin-on secondary filters, it started right up after bleeding. Actually, it started up within 5 seconds. Hadn't been started in a few days at last. Ambient temp in the ER was 50 degrees F. I kept it at 65 all winter and had these issues. Surging is only 40-50 rpm wen warming up now.

Also noticed that I could take a whole 5 turns out of the Stop linkage and was still able to shut it down normally. This could have been part of the issue as well. Still maybe not 100% adjusted correctly, but works fine.

Thank you all very much. I am still going to bleed the injectors, but I think the main issue has been resolved. I am going to get with Brian when all this Virus **** is over and see what he thinks about the Cold Start button not staying in. I am not going to take apart the IP to investigate, right now.