Is a new-build without lithiums just plain stupid???

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+1 That's where I'm coming from! If you are a classic car nut and have the financial where with all to buy one of the above, then go for it! While reading this entire thread again, it's pretty obvious that those who say they really don't need LFP batts for the boating they do are really referring to the cost! I'm a boat nut! If I was a car nut I would be driving a Rolls! Come on guys, lets call a spade a spade....I drive a Toyota by choice, not because of its cost. :nonono:

No, I think you are missing my point

Some posters quoting LFP cost vs LA or AGM are using the rolls royce and ferrari of LFP as examples of price.
I use the Toyota of LFP for my example


But for average joe car user, they will never gain the full advantage that a Ferrari or Rolls Royce provides and a Toyota will have done the same job for them

As I said in an earlier post does the $35,000 mastervolt LFP bank
work any better than the $14,000 battleborn
The $7000 winston
or the $3000 EVE?
I have seen no compelling evidence

They all put out a shittonne of power and last longer than FLA and AGM
 
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Earlier this year, we had just taken possession of our boat. The surveyor had condemned 4 out of the 5 batteries on board. I had a sheet a mile long of stuff to fix. Would have been great to design a house Li system from scratch. Pretty much right up my alley.
So, just amazoned the batteries. Yep, 10$ per Ah. Not cheap. But, was online with a working boat much quicker. The existing old bank would not even lift a hanging anchor.
OTOH, with an otherwise caught up repair list, I’d check in with u folks and pull off a custom design.
 
@TT, what scenarios would lead to catastrophic failure like that?

I’m aware of one which is most likely - the warnings about ganging FLA’s together. Everyone is so excited to use affordable Costco golf cart batteries (6V) ganged together in series/parallel.

But there is a real danger of fire in older banks where one cell dropping in performance, or going dead, will draw down a tremendous amount of amperes.

I’ve read that (for our typical pleasure boats) 12VDC electric is the #1 cause of fires, followed by 120VAC and then followed by propane gas far behind.

The safest way to connect FLA is purely in series. Example, 4 x golf carts for 24 volts. Or for more capacity then go 48 volts. Or best yet, go for industrial 2V batteries.


Hydrogen of course is the explosion risk, primarily with flooded batteries. A neighbor of mine had one blow up in his face. Then any sort of plate failure that causes a short, heats things, shorts out more, and off she goes until all the stored energy is dissipated.


No explosion in this case, but dangerous heat and release of hydrogen and other gases https://mvdirona.com/2013/11/battery-thermal-runaway/


More from Nigel Calder https://www.yachtingmonthly.com/archive/how-batteries-can-explode-and-how-to-avoid-it-3930


And this article of Steve D's has a good picture part way through the article. https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/battery-installation/
 
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On our most recent build, we went Lithium for no real reason. No financial justification. Yes, the lesser weight is nice. Builder just very comfortable and feels with building a boat that is otherwise advanced in materials and electronics, then that's the way to go and we agreed. We don't do the level of anchoring and if we anchor we run the generator. We don't fit any pattern, other than liking latest technology and liking not having to think about them for years. So, we're not one to listen to other than stating the costs are not as much higher as many here are indicating.

Now, if you want to live at anchor and cruise with using your generator and go days without cranking engines, then SIMI is one to really look at as he lives that life, but few of us do and we certainly don't. So, he can justify them easily and we just did it because.....we wanted to and the builder wanted to. They're really only using Lithium now.
 
Very much dependent on the LFP. Some can, some can't without damage. Most can probably accept 1C, but many vendors limit to 0.5C if you want the warrantee. In packages solutions (e.g. Battleborn) the charge rate is limited by the BMS, usually to 0.5C. Victron specs their max recommended charge at 0.5C or less. Cells are made by the manufacturers with different goals, you can get high current cells if you order them, it isn't what you would ordinarily use in a house battery. You can get AGMs to charge at 2C, if you are willing to ignore the specs.

But I'd agree that charge acceptance much above 0.5C is irrelevant in house batteries. If I change out the AGMs in my sailboat to LFP though, I will have to turn the charge rate down - not up. In the trawler, I don't have enough alternator for it to be an issue, like most owners.


Agreed. That's what I meant and was trying to say by everything else in that first paragraph.
 
One of my neighbors retired from a career with GM. He was an engineer for them and developed many products while there. He had negotiated with one of the largest battery builders (which will remain unnamed) to come work for them. He proposed that he could develop a lower cost, longer lasting, maintenance free LA battery. The executive acknowledged that his theory was sound but told him that was the last thing they wanted to see happen. So, he stayed retired.

They are now very interested in his proposal. Will be interesting to see what comes out from the manufacturers next.
 
They are now very interested in his proposal. Will be interesting to see what comes out from the manufacturers next.

Unless he patented AND copyrighted it, I suspect GM has stolen his ideas.
They could have "improved" on his ideas enough to generate a new patent and copyright.
Sadly, big companies are brutal.
 
Sandia Nat Labs: Battery Tech improvements take time to accomplish... read on for insight to research.

BTW - One of my organizations had CRADA with Sandia. Company of mine is planning to enact another CRADA in near future. Neither of my CRADA have to do with batteries; but, they do have to do with new-source energy. That said, I keep up on many of Sandia's projects. Previously, my company sponsored and I co-chaired a day long scientist and engineer meeting at one of Sandia's main facilities, Livermore CA.

Sandia Labs News Release - December 2, 2021 8:12 am

New testing method yields pathway to better, longer-lasting batteries
LIVERMORE, Calif.



Using a microscopic method for measuring electrical potential, a team of scientists at Sandia National Laboratories may have discovered how to make a longer-lasting, more efficient battery.

The team of Elliot Fuller, Josh Sugar and Alec Talin detailed their findings in an article published Oct. 19 in American Chemical Society Energy Letters.

“One of the challenges with solid-state batteries is that at the boundaries between different parts of the battery — a cathode and a layer of ion-conducting electrolyte, let’s say — something interferes with the flow of electrons,” Talin said.

Team at Sandia National Laboratories used Kelvin probe force microscopy to locate places where electron flows get stuck, potentially leading to engineering longer-lasting, more efficient batteries.

Solid-state batteries employ solid electrolytes instead of electrochemical gels and liquids and generally power small electronics. Most researchers suspected that there was a loss of voltage or electrical potential at interfaces within the battery, but not which interface was responsible for most of the impedance in the battery. The team started work five years ago to get some clarity.

“There were two main motivations for this. The first was fundamental: we want to have good models for batteries that we can use to develop better materials,” Talin explained. “The second thing was to figure out how we can engineer the interfaces to make them less impeding. In our case, it really has to do a lot with how fast lithium ions can move in the Si anode used in the study.”

They turned to Kelvin probe force microscopy, which measures electrical potential on a surface, and while using instruments in new ways is certainly not something Sandia is unaccustomed to, what the team did next no one had ever done, Talin said.

“The voltage between battery electrodes is relatively straightforward for researchers to calculate and measure,” Fuller said. “However, where that voltage drops within the battery layers has remained a mystery. It’s critical to understand where the voltage drops, as it is intimately tied to the performance-limiting resistances. Kelvin probe force microscopy is a technique that finally enabled us to measure where these drops are occurring.”

“This technique has been used for many years to measure local voltage, with people using it on parts of a battery. It was difficult to interpret because it was not a full functioning battery,” Talin continued. “We cut the battery in half longitudinally, with the elements stacked like a layer cake. You can still charge it and discharge it, so we did this measurement over the entire battery.”

The team found that a large part of the electrical potential of the battery was getting lost at the boundary between the electrolyte and the anode (negative) terminal.

“Most people thought the biggest change was going to happen at the interface between the cathode (positive) and electrolyte,” he added. “Understanding the measurements took a lot of time. We wanted to validate the data by measuring where the lithium ions were at different states during charging.”

To accomplish this, the team worked with researchers at the National Institute of Standards and Technology Center for Neutron Research using a technique called neutron depth profiling that can measure where lithium ions are at a particular moment. Now that NDP has confirmed the Kelvin probe force microscopy data, the team is looking to apply this methodology to a host of technologies that will benefit the nation.

“We’re going to use this technique to look at other batteries as well as other solid-state electrical systems, like the electrochemical random access memory invented at Sandia,” Talin said. “This will allow us to develop devices that operate like we would like them to operate.”

The work was done in collaboration with NIST, Naval Research Labs, University of Maryland College Park and Brown University. It was sponsored through Sandia’s Laboratory Directed Research and Development Lithium Battery Grand Challenge and the Nanostructures for Electrical Energy Storage Energy Frontiers Research Center as well as the Platforms core program, both led by the University of Maryland and sponsored by the DOE Office of Basic Energy Sciences.
________________________________________
Sandia National Laboratories is a multimission laboratory operated by National Technology and Engineering Solutions of Sandia LLC, a wholly owned subsidiary of Honeywell International Inc., for the U.S. Department of Energy’s National Nuclear Security Administration. Sandia Labs has major research and development responsibilities in nuclear deterrence, global security, defense, energy technologies and economic competitiveness, with main facilities in Albuquerque, New Mexico, and Livermore, California.
 
Now, if you want to live at anchor and cruise with using your generator and go days without cranking engines, then SIMI is one to really look at as he lives that life, but few of us do and we certainly don't. So, he can justify them easily and we just did it because.....we wanted to and the builder wanted to. They're really only using Lithium now.


Don't discount his enviably large solar array. That has a big impact.
 
Unless he patented AND copyrighted it, I suspect GM has stolen his ideas.
They could have "improved" on his ideas enough to generate a new patent and copyright.
Sadly, big companies are brutal.

He isn’t concerned with it. He never quite gave them the key and is happily retired at this point.
 
I've been following Quantum Scape for a few years now. A very smart group out of Stanford researchers put together teh company for an automotive EV application. A working model of a solid state battery has much higher power density than Li types and recharges in about 1/5th the time. VW is into this technology having invested over $400 million so far. The commercial application is touted for 2024. Stay tuned.

BTW, small solid state batteries have been around for over a century, commonly known as dry cells.
 
@Jdcave and @TT made reference earlier to the large volume of water needed by the batteries. I recall pouring many liters into my own banks as well.

Was wondering where you can source distilled water when cruising in some remote part of the world? Desalinated water is not sufficient. Does that mean we need to build our own little portable distillers??

Not a bad idea actually - something to play with all those leftover potatoes and oats - ha!
 
Why is RO water not good enuf?

There a some handheld RO units.

I used RO water on my last FLA bank and it lasted a decade.

It it "right" I do not know.

What I do know it is pure water. Many here say it is too pure to drink.

But not pure enough for a set of batteries with a decade lifespan and a cost of $1300 in and out the door?

Sometimes we here on TF tend to over think things to try to make them "perfect".
 
You can get a water deionizer pretty cheaply (much cheaper than RO). Deionized water is appropriate for batteries. But I'd much sooner ditch the FLAs first.
 
My system was on land so I always bought distilled water at the grocery store. But given a top up interval of 3 months or more, I suspect that same approach would work in all but the most extreme boating situations.


For about the last 2 years I installed an automatic watering system plus a deionizer. That made the whole process infinitely easier and more convenient.
 
@Jdcave and @TT made reference earlier to the large volume of water needed by the batteries. I recall pouring many liters into my own banks as well.

Was wondering where you can source distilled water when cruising in some remote part of the world? Desalinated water is not sufficient. Does that mean we need to build our own little portable distillers??

Not a bad idea actually - something to play with all those leftover potatoes and oats - ha!
I don't what is considered a lot of water. Every three months I add about 2.5 quarts to eight golf car batteries. At that point the water level is about half-way between full and the top of the plates. Is that a lot?
 
Adding water to my FLA bank takes about 20 minutes start to finish.

Really easy with a turkey baster.

Actually looking at your batteries regardless of the technology is a good idea.
 
how about rain water for a source.....

Much depends on the "rain's" content. All in all, IMO, distilled water is the most correct water-type to put into WLA batts. The main important thing regarding what water is inside batts is it's purity... in other words, no contained contaminants. Distilled water is the purest, contaminants free water there is. It is 100% [or close there to] pure.
 
I used RO water on my last FLA bank and it lasted a decade.

It it "right" I do not know.

What I do know it is pure water. Many here say it is too pure to drink.

But not pure enough for a set of batteries with a decade lifespan and a cost of $1300 in and out the door?

Sometimes we here on TF tend to over think things to try to make them "perfect".

Generally the recommended level of solids to water batteries with is between 0 and 5 ppm. The average RO watermaker puts out about 500-600 ppm, which is acceptable for drinking.
 
I've been following Quantum Scape for a few years now. A very smart group out of Stanford researchers put together teh company for an automotive EV application. A working model of a solid state battery has much higher power density than Li types and recharges in about 1/5th the time. VW is into this technology having invested over $400 million so far. The commercial application is touted for 2024. Stay tuned.

BTW, small solid state batteries have been around for over a century, commonly known as dry cells.

sunchaser, they are two different things entirely.

'Dry' cell batteries contain liquid electrolyte in the form of a paste,
as anyone who has left them in an appliance for too long well knows!

Solid state batteries are made solely of solid materials.
 
Someone asked me about my failed AGM battery.

My 4D AGM was installed 1/17 the label indicated it was a Delta brand battery.
 
We gots da bases affordably and well covered! Batt basics... that is!!

Our batt bank's last set of four [4] relatively inexpensive, deep cycle, FLA batts lasted 10 years. Current set is now 3 yrs since 4 batt replacement. Extremely affordable as a year over year cost factor. I have them hooked in parallel as a batt bank. Used too for starting both engines. Independent 27 FLA starter batt for powering up gen set and windless. And... keep an isolated emergency 27 FLA starter batt 100% charged in its own black box. House bank batts charge off starboard engine or 60 amp charger that is run by gen set or shore power. Starter batt for gen set and windless charges off trickle charger whenever 120 V breaker is on and from small solar panel on fly bridge front. Isolated emergency starter batt charges off it's own trickle charger whenever 120 V is on. Then there's of course the 27 FLA starter batt in our tow behind runabout that charges off its 50 hp. Johnson O/B. ​

SLI31MDC Duracell Ultra BCI Group 31M 12V 650CCA Flooded Marine & RV Battery

https://www.batteriesplus.com/produ...ne-and-boat/deep-cycle/bci-group-31m/sli31mdc

:speed boat::speed boat: :D:D :thumb::thumb:
 
Generally the recommended level of solids to water batteries with is between 0 and 5 ppm. The average RO watermaker puts out about 500-600 ppm, which is acceptable for drinking.

Sure, use distilled water, but ---

Numbers I'm familiar with from both commercial and household RO incoming fresh water units show a ppm removal of 90 to 95%. If one's incoming fresh water is 600 ppm that suggests RO product water of about 50 ppm or lower, which you might buy at Safeway. Safeway often stocks distilled water too.

Battery acid itself is tens of thousands of TDS assuming a SG of 1.26.
 
Getting back to a new build, it could be argued to go LifePo4 right from the beginning with a fresh slate.


The issue with retrofits, it could be a major upgrade if new alternators, regulators, chargers and batteries were needed.... lots of dollars and labor.


For "me" in a 43 trawler with hanging on the hook perhaps 3 to 5 days in a row, I'll stick with the AGMs. Unfortunately, I have the West Marine, (East Penn / Deka) which are not really good batteries. And if for some reason they needed replacement, it would be the Lifeline AGMs.



In shopping, a good quality LifePo4 install would cost me double of what an AGM install would cost and wouldn't necessarily improve thing dramatically.
However, who know a few years down the road... better choices and other technology?


And if I put LifePo4 is today, it would be Lithionics, US made, better quality.
 
Continuing along "New Build"

If [and that's a BIG IF - LOL] I were to bother having a brand new boat built... irrespective of the batt types or forms of charging systems... along with several other important criterion for lay out - Super Easy Battery Accessibility would be a must!
 
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How do you guys who have lithium batteries installed getting around the ambient temperature concerns? In other words, are you installing them in engine rooms, lazarette, or in the living space?
 
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