Li Installation Contractor Hold Harmless and Insurance Approval

[Turtle Blues]

Questions for those who have had systems professionally installed.
Did the installer require a hold harmless agreement or any special conditions as part of the contract?
Did you request approval from or notify your insurance carrier of the installation?
Not looking for rants against regulations just information on maintaining insurance requirements for both the boat owner and the installation contractor. Thanks

 

[O C Diver]

Did you check (read) your insurance policy (contract)? When I was considering switching to a Lithium battery bank, I read through my insurance policy. There was no mention of switching to Lithium batteries in my policy.

Ted

 

[Turtle Blues]

It doesn't yet.
Question came up recently with contractor who is requesting the HH agreement. Concern being amplified when owners request installation of bargain priced batteries they have purchased.

 

[SteveK]

A friend recently installed LFP. Just talking about it did sound like they can do the job with these batteries or else. Reading between the lines there may be something to this HH. I did my own after reading my policy.

 

[BruceK]

Check your policy to see if granting a release to anyone,not just an electrician installing LI batts, affects your right to claim on insurance for any loss you suffer due to the work of the contractor requiring release from liability. Insurers don`t like you doing it, their subrogated rights are no better than yours, if you release they likely can`t recover and therefore they don`t want you claiming.

 

[tiltrider1]

I just spent 3 weeks in the yard. Multiple different jobs were performed. Never once was I asked to sign anything like a HH.

 

[mvweebles]

My gut tells me there is a backstory to this "hold harmless" request from your contractor. From prior experience with [non-marine] service contracting, could be he's a slow learner and wants indemnification instead of learning from past mistakes.

I'd shop around a bit.......

Peter

 

[slowgoesit]

Peter, there may be more of a backstory than you are thinking. It starts with the first sentence in your post:

"Questions for those who have had systems professionally installed.

As you know, I installed my LiFePO4 house battery bank myself. I had contacted several people who advertised or stated that they were qualified to install, so in that respect, they were claiming to be "Professional". Two of these "Professional" LiFePO4 installers actually came out to the boat to work up quotes for my LiFePO4 install (and upgrade of associated equipment to support the LiFePO4 battery bank, like correct inverter charger, tie in to solar panels, etc)
When discussing the install with one "Professional" installer, . . . . he must have been a "Professional Marine Electrician" trained in LiFePO4 installs . . . it said so right on his business card . . . . anyway, I was grilling him on the batteries he recommended. I asked him: "Does the BMS have the capability to connect to my Cerbo GX, or through Blue Tooth, or is it standalone?"

His question back to me was: "What is a BMS?" I moved on to the next "Professional Installer"

Similar story with him. The questions I got from these "Professionals", and the answers I received from them when I asked for their "Certifications" varied from the useless, to the ridiculous. One guy (3 years ago) stated that he had been professionally (there's that word again) designing and installing LiFePO4 for the last 30 years!

Bottom line, Even ABYC at the time (3 years ago) didn't even have a certification for LiFePO4 training. I know, I called and asked them. They DID give me the names/contact info for three people on the West Coast who they stated were "knowledgeable" in LiFePO4. The one (1) in the PNW was booked up solid for two years.

I ended up leaning on my training as an aircraft mechanic (A&P), which I worked as, as well as taught, and did a LOT of research, and came up with an install (three years ago), which happens to be in compliance with the latest ABYC recommendations, but . . . per insurance companies, I know nothing, and the install was NOT "Professional", and therefore not insurable.

I realize that the new ABYC recommendations for LiFePO4 are now out, but to date, I don't know if ABYC, or any other true certifying body had come out with a "Professional Certification" for LiFePO4 installations.

So up comes the question again. Just what the heck does "Professionally Installed" really mean?

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. s. A "professional" gets to charge $130+/hr...

 

[psneeld]

I would hope it has changed but I doubt it.

When I started in marine electronics...marine installs of inverters was relatively new. The company I worked for recognized my ability to absorb and they sicked me on that line of work. When I started explain to my bosses that we needed a whole set of inventory of cable, lugs, tools etc...they said don't worry about it. They were convinced that 2 ga wire would be sufficient and simple hand crimpers for electronics power cords were all we needed...maybe one of those hammer crimpers for the bigger stuff. This was one of the top marine electronics businesses in the area and the owners left the other competitor because they thought that company was behind the times.

Granted that was one company...but its a small world of "marine pros" and I met many others at factory training with the same amazement of "behind the times" in too many pros.

Just had the same experience with buying a 19 ft skiff, motor and trailer from a local dealer. Had questions about construction of materials and design so I could safely add accessories.... the dealership had minimal info and the company/factory does not allow buyers to contact the factory for details. I had a few warranty issues and the service manager admitted he had little or no experience with fiberglass boats or trailers. I was too scared to ask about if he knew anything about outboards!

I am finding much the same in the RV world for big, expensive items like todays fleet of trawlers. I can only hope there is better support at the manufacturing level as I don't find much in the field these days. Jobs are jobs and people seem resistant to knowing more than what they are required to. Oh...I am sure there are true pros out there and history shows that the lack of them is not new.... but I think a lot of us older gents are just running across more and more nightmares as we live long enough.

As to new LifePO4 battery swaps... the tech is probably safer than old lead acid installs...so I would think insurance would mostly only care that it was done right. If you do it or a pro...the cost is probably enough to get a "pro" whether tech or surveyor to certify to ABYC standards and with that increase your insurance to cover the install.

 

[SteveK]

I am a self proclaimed DIY professional.
"DIY" is an abbreviation of the phrase; 'Do it yourself'. DIY refers to the ability to modify, build or repair things yourself without the help of experts or professionals.

 

[Delta Riverat]

Yeah, "professionals"...

Just means they do something for pay, not that they know what they are doing.

 

[SIBERNUT]

Absolutely no HH. And if want to see if he even HAD ins.

 

[psneeld]

My business law professor always said (remember he was an active criminal judge) there are only 3 professions because they had "privileged communications with clients/patients"....doctors, lawyers and prostitutes.

I guess the rest of us who worked hard for our money and emphasized customer satisfaction were just whores...

 

[BruceK]

The "hold harmless"/release is likely dictated by the contractor`s liability insurer.

 

[slowgoesit]

What I am confused by is why would ANY customer agree to sign a document agreeing not to hold an installer responsible for issues/problems/mistakes made by an installer who is supposedly trained and qualified to do the install?!?

 

[Captain DJ]

Someone once told me a "professional " or "expert" is defined by a Person that learns more and more about less and less, until they know absolutely everything about nothing at all.

Some "professionals" seem to work hard at fitting that definition.