List vs Sale Price? / Buyer's Agent?

[ERTF]

1. Looked at a boat, and listing agent sent an agent he employed to do the showing. That agent informed me that he would be my buyers agent, and the listing agent (his boss) would represent the seller. Nice guy and not slick/salesman-ish at all, but I can't imagine him being worth anything to me as an impartial representative of MY best interests? I assume I'm not paying him anything, but what is the seller gonna owe him -- basically how much extra am I paying for this boat (indirectly) in exchange for this agents "help"?

2. Obviously it varies depending upon how aggressively priced, but how much below listing price of a $60-80k boat would one typically offer? And then is there likely a counter offer? In the end what percentage below list price is a typical accepted offer?

 

[alesnloggers]

Friend of mine just paid $56k for a boat listed at $90k. Divorce, had been on the market for a year, wife had control of the sale.....

 

[SoWhat]

You need to send the agent a written note (with USPS tracking) clarifying the buyer/agent relationship. Expressly state he is acting as the sellers agent to your knowledge and you do not require the services of a buyers agent. Don't assume anything. Don't wait until the contract is typed out to discover you are paying two commissions.

List price isn't a factor. Your surveyor will tell you what the boat is worth. What you offer for it is another matter.

 

[Comodave]

The brokers are usually paid by the seller. I would question that one salesman from the listing brokerage could be a buyers broker. The listing brokerage usually represents the seller. I am not a broker but this seems unusual.

 

[ERTF]

Posted a couple brief Q's initially, but here's my situation in-depth:

1st time buying a big boat / diesel. Have my eye on a specific Marine Trader layout that is apparently rare (judging by listings). I don't think it's a hard to find model because they are particularly sought after, if anything probably slightly less appealing to most so likely just less of them made. But the layout is perfect for my specific needs, and there's not really a similar counterpart by a different builder. Anyway, the single solitary boat of that model for sale (on the entire internet) that's in my price range is within driving distance.

It's being sold by a major yacht broker. Upon calling the agent on the listing, he directed an agent that works for him to show me the boat (since that he lived nearby). Upon arrival, that agent says he'll be representing me, and the agent listed on YW ad (his employer) will represent the seller. He then says "since I'm not representing the seller, I'll just tell you straight away that IMO they're asking too much for this boat". He went on to say that he's shown it several times and that the seller's are extremely firm/stubborn on price despite it being on the market for over a year. When I viewed it, list price was $83k and agent told me someone several months prior had offered $73k and sellers would not even consider. Now I see the list price has dropped to $78k. The seller's live in another state and are paying slip/diver/etc to not even use the boat.

Meanwhile it's time for me to choose a boat to pull the trigger on in the next couple months. My normal instinct would be to offer something like $65k and see what they say. But the agent's comment about them stonewalling $73k previously makes me think they'd never take less than that -- maybe nothing less than the full $78k ask. Now since he's employed by the selling broker, it occurs to me that he possibly could have mentioned that they turned down $73k so that I basically offer full asking price. However he didn't seem like a slick/anxious salesman at all, so I'm inclined to believe he was just stating a fact.

As for the boat's condition, obviously nothing 30 years old is immaculate, but to my novice eye, it appeared quite good compared to the few somewhat less expensive trawlers I've viewed. And more importantly the layout instantly felt like "the one" (as I expected). With that said, I was initially aiming for something more in the $40-60k range. Now if I had it my way, I'd prefer a somewhat cheaper version that needs a little cosmetic TLC. But, if I'm paying more and getting more (better condition) -- then fair enough. However, the agent's statement about it being overpriced + the boat being on the market for 18 months makes me a bit wary of just going for it and offering them basically what they are asking. However, it's the only boat I've toured that instantly felt like "home", so I'm also loathe to let it slip thru my fingers over $5-$10k because there are no current alternatives on the market. My main concern is that because this boat is rare, there's not really a supply/demand market to infer the correct price from. I definitely want it (and though more $$ than initial target, can afford it) -- but I just don't wanna get caught chasing a boat and overpay.

A bit of a conundrum... Any further guidance?

 

[BruceK]

That`s utter crap. The selling agent employs the "buyers" (your) agent and he`s independent. C`mon, pull the other leg.
Sometimes in real estate there are agents in a business who are way better working with buyers than they are getting listings. But they are always serving the business, not the buyer.
You didn`t even ask for this "service",it was imposed on you. Could be a way to avoid you using a real buyers broker and them having to split the commission, which is paid by the seller. And/or the broker is too busy and sent you an underling.
By all means clear up the uncertainties, but remember, if you deal with this guy you are dealing the someone representing the seller, not you. That`s no bad thing, provided you understand the guy is not on your side.
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Edit: Typed before the Op`s post above. "Admissions against interest", like "too dear, offer less, offer this" sounds like a con to me to gain confidence, a sales tactic. Represent yourself, offer what you think you should, not what he suggests, unless it coincides.

 

[ERTF]

Yeah I'm not naive. Although -- no disrespect to any buyers agent (marine or real estate) -- despite ostensibly working for you, the incentive system is setup so it's always in their best interest that you buy the first thing you see / pay the most possible -- even if they aren't employed by the selling agent.

 

[tiltrider1]

Don’t over think this. The selling broker probably read you as a reasonable buyer who is going to buy a boat. He probably has an unreasonable seller. True buyers have value and he knows he can find you a boat, that is why he set you up with your own buyers broker, so when his seller screws everything up he can still rescue it by directing you to a different boat ethically. Meaning he can’t but the other broker can. Now your broker sounds honest, he is preparing you for negotiating with an unreasonable seller, he’s ready to take your offer or find you another boat, he is not trying to work you into a full price offer.

Brokers try to price boats fairly but, some sellers think to highly of their boats, also boats might have been priced fair at first and then better more urgent to sell boats may have come on the market. There is no set amount of anticipated discount.

So now we come down to desire. If you want a boat NOW, are convinced that this is the only boat for you and it’s only higher than your desired price because it’s newer but you can still afford it, the just make the offer.

On the other hand, the broker never said “don’t low ball them”. He was just preparing you for a difficult negotiation. If the boat is only worth 65k to you then make the offer and when rejected tell the broker to find you another boat.

If you want this boat and you just want to negotiate the best deal start with 72k. That’s 1k less than the seller turned down. You can always up it to full price if he doesn’t counter you.

 

[tiltrider1]

Is the broker trying to keep all the commission in house, yes, but he is also trying to keep you as a customer. Sellers pay the commission so take advantage of the free service.

 

[ERTF]

If you want a boat NOW, are convinced that this is the only boat for you and it’s only higher than your desired price because it’s newer but you can still afford it, the just make the offer.

It's not newer. I looked at another Marine Trader of the same LOA, but different layout, that I know for a fact I could have for at least half the price. Now yes that one is in slightly rougher cosmetic condition and would need a few upgrades, but it's certainly not HALF as valuable. What I was getting at is the I reason want that specific boat is because the layout -- but I think it's listed for twice as much simply because the sellers want an optimistic price for it, where as the other seller just wants/needs it gone (which seems to be fairly common).

 

[BruceK]

Isn`t there an old saying, "He who pays the piper calls the tune"? The "buyers broker" whether he is within the Sellers brokerage office or outside it in a separate brokerage, gets paid by the Seller. Paid if,and only if, there is a sale.

I know there are individuals who are exceptions, but the US system, where the buyers broker is paid by the seller but is claimed to dutifully serve the Buyer, is just plain odd to me, or more precisely, raises a gross conflict of interest.
Were I the OP, I would listen carefully to "my broker" to gain insight and info,and make my own decisions. I`d likely go in hard and low, but that`s me, not necessarily you.

 

[tiltrider1]

It's not newer. I looked at another Marine Trader of the same LOA, but different layout, that I know for a fact I could have for at least half the price. Now yes that one is in slightly rougher cosmetic condition and would need a few upgrades, but it's certainly not HALF as valuable. What I was getting at is the I reason want that specific boat is because the layout -- but I think it's listed for twice as much simply because the sellers want an optimistic price for it, where as the other seller just wants/needs it gone (which seems to be fairly common).

Here we have a conundrum. The boats are almost the same. Dose the change in layout make one boat twice as valuable. It might or it might only to the right person. It’s no longer a question of what the boat is worth but a question of what it’s worth to you. I’ve been there, my wife found a layout she wanted and it was so rare it took me 4 years to find one on the market. The seller was unreasonable but I had to have the boat. We negotiated going mostly no where. Finally my wife reminded me that a happy wife was worth more than $50,000, so I paid the price I wanted and donated the rest to my happy wife fund. I’v never regretted making here happy.

 

[ERTF]

Here we have a conundrum. The boats are almost the same. Dose the change in layout make one boat twice as valuable. It might or it might only to the right person. It’s no longer a question of what the boat is worth but a question of what it’s worth to you.

Yup. It's nearly impossible to settle for the much cheaper boat that I don't particularly want. But the otherside of the coin is paying twice as much for the one I REALLY want doesn't decrease my risk of buying a 30 year old boat and unluckily end up facing an unforseen major overhaul right away, or worse: have it sink.

 

[FF]

"I'll just tell you straight away that IMO they're asking too much for this boat"

Brokers do not give a hoot about the price , only that there IS a sale.

$90,000 for an unsold boat vs $45,000 for a sale that gives a commission.

EZ choice , cash in the hand is always king.

 

[Ex Sailor]

I would deal with the listing broker, I believe that's where the leverage is. These sleeze bags do not like to split / share commissions ! Know what you are buying and under NO circumstances show that you are emotionally attached to the boat ! Case in point: I was selling my sailboat a few years ago, the buyer went with a sales guy from my listing brokerage .... Shortly after listing, I got an offer 15% below my asking and the buyers guy says to me: " sign it back at just below asking, my client really likes the boat and will come up " ... LOL ( I did and it went ) Can you believe this sh*t ? ! ..... They are ONLY there for the deal, don't trust any of em' ..... f

 

[denverd0n]

Could be a way to avoid you using a real buyers broker and them having to split the commission...

DING! DING! DING! We have a winner!


I have no doubt that this is the intent in this guy telling the OP that he is now "his" agent. They're just trying to be sure that he doesn't engage a real buyers broker that they have to share the commission with.


I think my response to him would have been along the lines of, "I don't really need a buyers broker, thank you, but if I decide I want one I'll be sure you get a chance to meet him."

 

[Chrisjs]

IMO there is no such thing as a buyer's agent. Even if you hire your own agent (and pay yourself), the motivation of both the buyer and seller agents is the same - sell a boat (house) and get a commission. That is not to say that a buyer's agent can not be helpful in lining up several suitable boats for viewing and helping with paperwork etc during and after the sale. I think typically when 2 agents are involved the commission is paid by the seller and the agents split the commission, though not necessarily 50/50. Best advice is to believe half what you hear from the broker and get a good surveyor. Even better get 2 good surveyors - one for the boat and one for engines, etc. Also, on a $50K boat sale the seller will typically pay only $5K which split 2 ways does not get you a lot of service.

 

[Ka_sea_ta]

If you are sure this is the boat for you, make an offer that you feel would be accepted. When you have the boat surveyed, most likely with a vessel this age the surveyor will find thousands of dollars worth of discrepancies, some may be show stoppers others not... but the findings are a very persuasive bargaining chip. If there are few issues with the survey you just found a great boat.

 

[ktdtx]

IMO there are multiple values to a boat.
Two of them are the "value" to the existing owner and the "value" to you.


If this really is "the boat" you have lusted after then go buy it. Even if you over pay a little (of course within limits) it is better than paying a little less for a different boat that you will never like.


Make an offer and even if rejected or countered. tell your "buyers broker" to just let the offer sit until canceled by you, while you continue to search. After the seller makes another slip payment or repair and receives no other offers they may reconsider.

 

[tiltrider1]

DING! DING! DING! We have a winner!


I have no doubt that this is the intent in this guy telling the OP that he is now "his" agent. They're just trying to be sure that he doesn't engage a real buyers broker that they have to share the commission with.

."

I can’t say for your region but on the west coast if a buyer shows up with out a broker he/she has given up the right to bring in a buyer’s broker. Since the OP approached the selling broker first that broker gets the full commission.

Brokers only get paid if there is a sale, they most likely read the OP as a real buyer and maneuvered them selves in position to be his buyers broker because they felt this boat isn’t the one the OP is going to buy.

What we don’t know is the value of the rare layout of this boat. Maybe it is worth twice as much, supply and demand, who knows?

 

[Comodave]

When we bought our current boat the broker specifically stated that they represented the seller and not our interests. That was ok with me since I felt comfortable representing myself since we have bought many boats over our lifetime. That said, if this is the boat for you then make a reasonable offer and see what happens. Maybe the seller has had time to think over the last offer he turned down and may be more reasonable now. Anyway good luck with whatever you do.

 

[mahal]

Unless there are other active offers, it can't hurt to offer what you think the boat is worth and work from there.

It is not common for your price range to have a buyers broker. I think what the agent is proposing to do is a good one in that someone will be on your side. They normally get paid a 10% commission minus the share for the brokerage, offer your guy a 20% cash tip on any price reduction he negotiates for you. It doesn't make any sense for a buyers broker to work hard negotiating a reduced price to lower their commission, so this should be a good incentive. So what if you have to pay him 2k for every 10k you save.

That said, I recently paid much more for a boat for it's layout,GB Europa vs. Classic, and no regrets. It was also the only one of the vintage I was looking for that was for sale. I would have regretted not buying it.

 

[McGillicuddy]

I believe that when you discussed and then showed up to view the boat without a ‘buyers broker’ in tow you essentially forfeited your ability to bring in an independent buyers broker on a split commission basis. In other words the listing agent isn’t going to want to share his commission with a Johnny come lately to the deal. So if you want an independent buyers broker, that cost will likely come out of your pocket now.
That is not to say that the arrangement you have now cannot work. You just have to realize that although he has declared himself to be a buyers agent he is not. His boss is the sellers agent and he works for his boss, not you. It is imperative that you understand this, not only for the sale price negotiations, but also for all the other tasks that the agent has to undertake, such as setting up shipyard inspections and handling escrow accounts. Make sure that you think through the details of everything and do not take as gospel any advice given. Question everything. Do NOT under any circumstance allow them to choose the surveyor for the inspection. Do your own research and get the guy with the best reputation you can find. Listen to him. He can save you $$$$$
As for offering price, if it hasn’t sold in 18 months, don’t be rushed into making an offer. Ask your newly engaged surveyor what the current market value of the boat is on paper. Offer that, ‘subject to inspection’. You can always negotiate down from that if issues are found but worst case is you won’t be paying above market value.
Don’t fall in love with a boat yet. Love is a long term relationship. Wait until you own it. It is ok to be infatuated with the boat but you MUST be prepared to walk away if the deal is wrong. Negotiation requires a certain mindset. Prepare your mind for this. There are other boats out there for you, you just haven’t found them yet.
If this is the boat for you, and you are prepared, it will come together. Have patience and good luck to you.
In answer to your original question on list vs sale price, on my current boat, listed for about 14 months prior to my offer, I offered less than a previous buyer had offered and been rejected. My offer was accepted because of ongoing bank note, slip rent and insurance costs. My offer was 60% of asking. At closing the seller had to come up with an additional $20k to pay off the loan and pay brokers fees. Poor guy. He wouldn’t talk to me, thought I had ripped him off. But he had his chance to sell higher and turned it down. Fair market value is what a willing buyer will pay a willing seller. At the time of sale, I was the only willing buyer in sight.
Again, good luck.

 

[David Hughes]

List vs Sale Prince? / Buyer's Agent?

I certainly agree that the listing agent was trying to make sure that either way that he retained the full 10% commission in house. But another reason might be that putting the junior guy on the buyer is a way to help along a new guy in an ethical way without hurting the large broker company. If the listing broker goes in with presumption that only 5% is really at play because any buyer is likely to have their own buyers broker, he might think that turning it over to the junior guy doesn’t really hurt him, helps the broker company and helps out the new guy in getting established.

I also think the advice to make an offer that is likely to be accepted is smart: then use the survey to do the real negotiation. You as buyer can always back out without obligation unless it’s a totally perfect boat.

As to spread between asking and actual, it’s highly variable, with a big factor being how common or how rare the boat model may be. Everyone knows what a 10 year old Gemini is worth, or a 5 year old Jeanneau. Those boats are likely priced pretty easily and spread is likely lower. A custom boat with no others like it is the most difficult to price accurately.

In my case, when selling my boat it was priced at 219K, I accepted an offer of 205K and then gave another 5K off after various survey findings. So I sold for less than 10% below asking. But I also knew I was going with a low asking price right off the bat. Others were priced around 225K. I could have gotten $10K more probably, but my sale happened in about 2 weeks. I was happy.

 

[SeaMoose]

Marine Traders in good shape are rare breeds and worth the money as so many of them have been destroyed by lack of maintenance. (Bias Alert: I own one in good shape as I have poured insane amounts of money into it over many years)

That being said the market for these boats is soft because so many of them are a disaster, and that's the impression people have of them.

Chances are a survey will reveal issues/problems. I'd wager - based on what you have written - that the boat has never made it to the survey phase. If you really want it, I'd make a reasonable offer with the usual survey contingency, and negotiate a price reduction based on what the survey finds.

Do you mind sharing what model the boat is? I've followed the MT market quite closely for about 20 years now.

 

[psneeld]

Isn't Florida a state with licensed yacht brokers?

If they are, I doubt what is going on is shady....it is possible the listing is actually the owners or managers and assigning someone else is for convenience or to help the other guy out financially.

In real estate in NJ, one agent can handle both sides if properly disclosed. Maybe the same here.

 

[Boatfever]

What SeaMoose said.
Also, you mention this would be your first big boat. A surveyor with trawler experience and hopefully Marine Trader experience would be in order. SeaMoose can probably go through the list of what to look for regarding historical hull, deck, superstructure, window, etc, issues with MT's produced around the year model you are interested in. As a fellow boater, I'd rather see you get more pleasure than heartache out of this boat. Good luck with it.

 

[BandB]

1. Looked at a boat, and listing agent sent an agent he employed to do the showing. That agent informed me that he would be my buyers agent, and the listing agent (his boss) would represent the seller. Nice guy and not slick/salesman-ish at all, but I can't imagine him being worth anything to me as an impartial representative of MY best interests? I assume I'm not paying him anything, but what is the seller gonna owe him -- basically how much extra am I paying for this boat (indirectly) in exchange for this agents "help"?

2. Obviously it varies depending upon how aggressively priced, but how much below listing price of a $60-80k boat would one typically offer? And then is there likely a counter offer? In the end what percentage below list price is a typical accepted offer?

I costs you nothing as the seller pays all commissions, even if you have a buyer's agent. I find it unfathomable however to have a buyer's agent working for the selling broker. I'd tell him I was going to find my own buyer's broker.

There is no standard percentage. You offer what you think is reasonable. There often is a counter offer.

 

[Steve91T]

Posted a couple brief Q's initially, but here's my situation in-depth:

1st time buying a big boat / diesel. Have my eye on a specific Marine Trader layout that is apparently rare (judging by listings). I don't think it's a hard to find model because they are particularly sought after, if anything probably slightly less appealing to most so likely just less of them made. But the layout is perfect for my specific needs, and there's not really a similar counterpart by a different builder. Anyway, the single solitary boat of that model for sale (on the entire internet) that's in my price range is within driving distance.

It's being sold by a major yacht broker. Upon calling the agent on the listing, he directed an agent that works for him to show me the boat (since that he lived nearby). Upon arrival, that agent says he'll be representing me, and the agent listed on YW ad (his employer) will represent the seller. He then says "since I'm not representing the seller, I'll just tell you straight away that IMO they're asking too much for this boat". He went on to say that he's shown it several times and that the seller's are extremely firm/stubborn on price despite it being on the market for over a year. When I viewed it, list price was $83k and agent told me someone several months prior had offered $73k and sellers would not even consider. Now I see the list price has dropped to $78k. The seller's live in another state and are paying slip/diver/etc to not even use the boat.

Meanwhile it's time for me to choose a boat to pull the trigger on in the next couple months. My normal instinct would be to offer something like $65k and see what they say. But the agent's comment about them stonewalling $73k previously makes me think they'd never take less than that -- maybe nothing less than the full $78k ask. Now since he's employed by the selling broker, it occurs to me that he possibly could have mentioned that they turned down $73k so that I basically offer full asking price. However he didn't seem like a slick/anxious salesman at all, so I'm inclined to believe he was just stating a fact.

As for the boat's condition, obviously nothing 30 years old is immaculate, but to my novice eye, it appeared quite good compared to the few somewhat less expensive trawlers I've viewed. And more importantly the layout instantly felt like "the one" (as I expected). With that said, I was initially aiming for something more in the $40-60k range. Now if I had it my way, I'd prefer a somewhat cheaper version that needs a little cosmetic TLC. But, if I'm paying more and getting more (better condition) -- then fair enough. However, the agent's statement about it being overpriced + the boat being on the market for 18 months makes me a bit wary of just going for it and offering them basically what they are asking. However, it's the only boat I've toured that instantly felt like "home", so I'm also loathe to let it slip thru my fingers over $5-$10k because there are no current alternatives on the market. My main concern is that because this boat is rare, there's not really a supply/demand market to infer the correct price from. I definitely want it (and though more $$ than initial target, can afford it) -- but I just don't wanna get caught chasing a boat and overpay.

A bit of a conundrum... Any further guidance?

Is this a 47’ MT 3 cabin?

 

[SoWhat]

I costs you nothing as the seller pays all commissions, even if you have a buyer's agent.

The seller pays all the commissions using the buyers money