List vs Sale Price? / Buyer's Agent?

[twistedtree]

I would just ignore their buyers broker thing. You are just dealing with them, and they will take all the commission, even if one of them claims to be looking out for your interests. It really only becomes a problem if you decide to bring in your own buyers broker, or if you go look at other boats and this guy you now have starts to tag along and try to insert himself into another deal.


And I would take all the pricing "insight" with a big grain of salt. He may be giving you genuine info, or he may be posturing. Regardless, offer what the boat is worth to you, and work from there.

 

[BandB]

The seller pays all the commissions using the buyers money

But the point is that having a buyer's broker doesn't change the price.

 

[BandB]

And I would take all the pricing "insight" with a big grain of salt. He may be giving you genuine info, or he may be posturing. Regardless, offer what the boat is worth to you, and work from there.

His ultimate one and only goal is selling the boat they have listed.

 

[BruceK]

ERTF,Assuming you get past all the above and decide to make an offer, remember it`s your offer and you can put it anyway you like.
A stipulation which concentrates a seller`s mind is limiting the offer so it expires at a time on a day you choose, unless withdrawn earlier. I`d have thought you could withdraw anytime before acceptance as well, but worth adding to the offer "I reserve the right to withdraw my offer at any time prior to acceptance".
Remember, a counter offer by the seller also contains a rejection of your offer, which means your offer is no longer on foot, and you are then just dealing with the seller`s offer.
Good luck, think carefully,decide what you want to pay, decide on an offer, and have a go at it.

 

[CaptsWife]

We just bought our Nautique (kha shing)

last month and went through the seller's broker. We didn't feel that there were any issues. We had a full boat survey (from a person who actually was part of the production facility in Taiwan) and we had a separate engine survey. We based our offer (which was a LOT lower than the asking price) based on the surveys.

Surveys are key to any offer you'll make.

 

[Gmarr]

Come up with a price that you think it’s worth by looking at some comps on the market- ask them to substantiate why they think it’s worth what they think it is- deal with the variance.

 

[denverd0n]

Isn't Florida a state with licensed yacht brokers?
If they are, I doubt what is going on is shady...

Yes. Brokers here must be licensed and bonded. I don't think anything shady is going on either. I think they just don't want the buyer to start talking to another broker. If they don't get the full commission on this boat, then they are hoping to get at least half the commission on another boat.

 

[mod45]

But the point is that having a buyer's broker doesn't change the price.

I disagree with this, it's a mantra I hear repeatedly, especially from brokers. Both parties are ultimately paying broker fees, the seller out of the sale price and the buyer from a higher accepted price that compels the seller to agree to a net number.

When I target a boat to buy, I call the sellers agent and tell them I don't have a broker so they can represent both sides (10%), but if we get close I expect them to tweak their commission to get it done. I've never had anyone push back on that statement. On 5 or so transactions to get a deal to inspection/trial this has generally been in the 2-4% range. Granted this is at a higher price point than the OP with some other variables (cash, quick close), so perhaps it doesn't apply to this specific case.

I'm not anti-broker and understand their value in certain scenarios or to certain people. But it's a mistake to pretend that both parties aren't paying for it.

 

[BandB]

I disagree with this, it's a mantra I hear repeatedly, especially from brokers. Both parties are ultimately paying broker fees, the seller out of the sale price and the buyer from a higher accepted price that compels the seller to agree to a net number.

When I target a boat to buy, I call the sellers agent and tell them I don't have a broker so they can represent both sides (10%), but if we get close I expect them to tweak their commission to get it done. I've never had anyone push back on that statement. On 5 or so transactions to get a deal to inspection/trial this has generally been in the 2-4% range. Granted this is at a higher price point than the OP with some other variables (cash, quick close), so perhaps it doesn't apply to this specific case.

I'm not anti-broker and understand their value in certain scenarios or to certain people. But it's a mistake to pretend that both parties aren't paying for it.

And I will contend that for every 2-4% you think you've saved, you've lost at least that much in not having a broker truly representing you and helping you get the best deal. I can't prove that and you can't prove the converse, so it's opinion as to how it works best.

 

[mom-mac]

Marine Trader... there may be more than layout differences in the boats, MT’s are “known” for problems with wood deck leaks and wood house rot.

 

[BYNW]

I am surprised that there has not been any mention of sold comps. Have the broker go on soldboats.com and get you all the pertinent comps of similar size, age, and style of boat. This can be done for your regional market, with time constraints like the previous 2 years. Sometimes there is little data, but sometimes it is quite meaningful.


The concept that a broker has one and only one motivation is short sighted. Any broker worth their salt is interested in repeat business and referrals. A broker that simply wants to cram a specific listing, at the highest possible price, through the closing process is a newby or soon to be looking for other work.

 

[Aquabelle]

Is this buyer's broker stuff unique to the US? Does it happen when buying a boat in Canada? If one appointed a buyer's broker with a brief to go find a specific model in the US and a good candidate came up in Canada what would happen then, assuming one was happy to buy in Canada?

 

[BYNW]

Similar co-op routines are followed in BC. It's regularly done. I don't know about all of Canada, but I assume that it is country wide.



The listing agent/agency may offer a boat for co-operative brokerage. If this is the case, and the buyer wants to use a "Buyer's Broker", the representative of the buyer needs to be the liaison between the listing agent/agency and the potential buyer. Generally a co-operative agreement is executed between the listing and selling agents outlining the sharing of responsibilities and commission split.


In some cases the listing agent/agency will not do co-operative brokerage on a boat. The reasons vary but little commission on an inexpensive boat, vessel is a trade in, sub-par commission structure, or looking for low fruit on a new listing are examples.

 

[Aquabelle]

Where a listing agent refuses a co-op commission is the buyer free to then directly negotiate irrespective of the buyers broker arrangements ?

 

[jimisbell]

I deal a lot in real-estate, commercial and residential, NOT A BROKER OR SALESMAN. I am an investor. I found a woman who works for an agency and she is MY representative. I found her when she brought me a "birds nest on the ground" because she knew Ihad the moneyand was looking for it. The price was really very good but I offered even less. It took about a year to train her to take orders from me, but it was worth the training. Now she finds me real gems that no one else has yet discovered and when I say "offer half." she no longer says "They wont take it." like she used to do. Now she says , "Yes sir." And even now after three years she always expresses surprise when they take my offer. But she is becoming a believer. If I ever get where I can afford her, she will be my second in command because she learned and now trusts my judgement. She still doesnt understand but she takes orders and produces results.

Sometimes, as recently happened, I make a low ball offer and then when refused I walk away. Always be ready to walk away. (OP doesnt sound like he can project that attitude.) then two months later the seller returned with an even lower offer than my last offer, to get me back. I told my lady he would and when he did she almost fainted.

That is what a personal representative should be and how they should act. I am able to tell her exactly my strategy and she wont spill the beans. We get along perfectly

 

[BYNW]

I am not sure I understand the question.


If the listing agent/agency is unwilling to participate in a co-operative brokerage scenario, the buyer has options: First, proceed with dealing directly with the listing agent/agency. Second, pay a fee directly to their buyers representative since no split commission is available. (This is done most often in a "for sale by owner" scenario where there is no commission, but the buyer wants or needs representation) Thirdly, pursue another vessel.

 

[Aquabelle]

Thanks for the explanations. To my knowledge we have no such arrangements in Australia and I have not heard of it in Europe either (buyer's brokers I mean).

 

[jimisbell]

Thanks for the explanations. To my knowledge we have no such arrangements in Australia and I have not heard of it in Europe either (buyer's brokers I mean).

The buyers broker is just another party trying to wedge in a living. Not enough jobs and too many shysters that want to wear white slacks and a blue jacket. Only in the USA

 

[tupacamaru]

Me thinks you should decline the agent's offer to act on your behalf

If legal memory serves me well (from a previous work life), the offer of two agents from the same company acting as agents for the seller and buyer is, per se, a conflicted transaction, if not unethical, in my opinion. That being stated, there is, however, a way around this potential quagmire on their part by "allowing" you to waive the potential conflict by informing you of such and getting you to consent to their respective roles. Once fully informed of the conflict and acknowledging, they could proceed to act in their respective proposed roles. Again, in my opinion, this arrangement has a distinct "fishy" smell about it. I wouldn't touch it as a potential buyer, It is a mental "box" and you are the one being boxed.

 

[dhays]

That is what a personal representative should be and how they should act. I am able to tell her exactly my strategy and she wont spill the beans. We get along perfectly

My wife and I get along perfectly for the same reason. She tells me exactly how I should act, what I should say, and to keep my opinions to myself. I do what she tells me and we get along perfectly. ;-)

While I think what you are saying has a lot of merit, the premise is that you have made a lot of real estate transactions. Most of us don’t make a lot of boat transactions. Because of this, we don’t the same level of expertise that you do when it comes to purchasing boats.

My experience is limited. While my family has owned a lot of boats over my life, I have only purchased and sold two of them. I have an acquaintance that is a boat broker. She has lots of experience and I trust her to have my best interests in mind. I used her to buy one boat and sell two. Her services were valuable to me. However, that is a sample of one.

I hope I never buy and sell enough boats to get to the same level of expertise as you have with real estate. Because of that, I will most likely to try and find brokers that I trust to provide me with theirs. For the OP, I think if he can find a buyers broker that he trusts it can be very helpful. OTOH, I certainly don’t think it is necessary. In any transaction, it is important to understand that in most states, a “buyers broker” is really a misnomer. The broker is still legally representing the seller unless you are paying them separate from any split commission.

 

[jimisbell]

I agree that experience is valuable, but there are precepts that you can learn from a list. These apply to cars, boats, airplanes, real estate and most anything. And they apply at all levels from a used car to the Trump Tower.

1.Dont ever be married to a deal. Be ready to walk away.

2.Like when gambling, know what your hand is worth and dont over bet it. On the other hand know what the other hand fears and bluff if need be.

3.Know what the sellers motivation is and use it. If a divorce is pending know the dates of events. If the seller is out of town, he is unlikely to know the value of his product. If he owes taxes, property, income, etc, he is running scared. Know these things.

All this takes research, but that is what your agent is supposed to do for you. Paying too much for anything is just wasting money when you could avoid it just by doing a little research.

 

[BruceK]

If legal memory serves me well (from a previous work life), the offer of two agents from the same company acting as agents for the seller and buyer is, per se, a conflicted transaction, if not unethical, in my opinion. That being stated, there is, however, a way around this potential quagmire on their part by "allowing" you to waive the potential conflict by informing you of such and getting you to consent to their respective roles. Once fully informed of the conflict and acknowledging, they could proceed to act in their respective proposed roles. Again, in my opinion, this arrangement has a distinct "fishy" smell about it. I wouldn't touch it as a potential buyer, It is a mental "box" and you are the one being boxed.

Welcome Aboard!
I would differ. The Buyer should realise the "brokers buyer" imposition is just the selling broker`s staffer, and no independent advice or assistance is being given, in other words it is BS to retain 100% commission. If he is happy to protect his own interests, as I think he was at the outset, the negotiation continues, between him and the seller via its broker(s).
If not, then I agree, the imposed arrangement is hopelessly conflicted.

 

[Juggerknot]

Posted a couple brief Q's initially, but here's my situation in-depth:

1st time buying a big boat / diesel. Have my eye on a specific Marine Trader layout that is apparently rare (judging by listings). I don't think it's a hard to find model because they are particularly sought after, if anything probably slightly less appealing to most so likely just less of them made. But the layout is perfect for my specific needs, and there's not really a similar counterpart by a different builder. Anyway, the single solitary boat of that model for sale (on the entire internet) that's in my price range is within driving distance.

It's being sold by a major yacht broker. Upon calling the agent on the listing, he directed an agent that works for him to show me the boat (since that he lived nearby). Upon arrival, that agent says he'll be representing me, and the agent listed on YW ad (his employer) will represent the seller. He then says "since I'm not representing the seller, I'll just tell you straight away that IMO they're asking too much for this boat". He went on to say that he's shown it several times and that the seller's are extremely firm/stubborn on price despite it being on the market for over a year. When I viewed it, list price was $83k and agent told me someone several months prior had offered $73k and sellers would not even consider. Now I see the list price has dropped to $78k. The seller's live in another state and are paying slip/diver/etc to not even use the boat.

Meanwhile it's time for me to choose a boat to pull the trigger on in the next couple months. My normal instinct would be to offer something like $65k and see what they say. But the agent's comment about them stonewalling $73k previously makes me think they'd never take less than that -- maybe nothing less than the full $78k ask. Now since he's employed by the selling broker, it occurs to me that he possibly could have mentioned that they turned down $73k so that I basically offer full asking price. However he didn't seem like a slick/anxious salesman at all, so I'm inclined to believe he was just stating a fact.

As for the boat's condition, obviously nothing 30 years old is immaculate, but to my novice eye, it appeared quite good compared to the few somewhat less expensive trawlers I've viewed. And more importantly the layout instantly felt like "the one" (as I expected). With that said, I was initially aiming for something more in the $40-60k range. Now if I had it my way, I'd prefer a somewhat cheaper version that needs a little cosmetic TLC. But, if I'm paying more and getting more (better condition) -- then fair enough. However, the agent's statement about it being overpriced + the boat being on the market for 18 months makes me a bit wary of just going for it and offering them basically what they are asking. However, it's the only boat I've toured that instantly felt like "home", so I'm also loathe to let it slip thru my fingers over $5-$10k because there are no current alternatives on the market. My main concern is that because this boat is rare, there's not really a supply/demand market to infer the correct price from. I definitely want it (and though more $$ than initial target, can afford it) -- but I just don't wanna get caught chasing a boat and overpay.

A bit of a conundrum... Any further guidance?

First, never trust a man that wears a bow tie and second, a salesman is a salesman... he's just doing the "soft shoe". If the boats suits your needs and budget, surveys well, shoot em your offer, worst case scenario they refuse and you pop for full ask. September is prime hurricane season, wait to close in Oct. or later, it's on their dime... ymmv

 

[Orvil]

In real estate, it is called "dual agency" It's when the seller's broker represents both seller and buyer. It's not considered illegal. It used to be considered to be unethical. But, times have changed. Now, it's handled by the signing of a disclosure agreement that enumerates everyone's responsibilities. This way, the arrangement is disclosed.

In this case, you have not engaged the agent. He still represents the seller and offers you no duty of care. You need to clarify the arrangement before you do anything else. 10% is going to be paid. You won't be writing the check. But, you should always keep your cards close to your vest. Just clarify the arrangement before going forward. I said that twice, because it's important.

I would offer the seller what you think widget is worth. You don't give a flip about what someone else before you did. They aren't standing there with a check. If you like it and are willing to go forward with the purchase, make the offer. The worst thing that will happen is the seller will reject it or counter. You won't know unless you try. Don't delay too long, because willing buyers do show up unexpectedly and all that you need is someone else throwing in a bid.

If there is a rejection, you will have to increase your offer. It's business. Don't be afraid of offending anyone. It's business. Make the low offer and go from there.

That doesn't mean that you can't mine for information. Don't fall in love with it. It will break your heart if you. Trust no one. Ever. Make an offer and don't offer asking.

 

[jimisbell]

I would offer the seller what you think widget is worth. You don't give a flip about what someone else before you did. They aren't standing there with a check. If you like it and are willing to go forward with the purchase, make the offer. The worst thing that will happen is the seller will reject it or counter. You won't know unless you try. Don't delay too long, because willing buyers do show up unexpectedly and all that you need is someone else throwing in a bid.

If there is a rejection, you will have to increase your offer. It's business. Don't be afraid of offending anyone. It's business. Make the low offer and go from there.

That doesn't mean that you can't mine for information. Don't fall in love with it. It will break your heart if you. Trust no one. Ever. Make an offer and don't offer asking.

Amen and amen

 

[Tom.B]

A stipulation which concentrates a seller`s mind is limiting the offer so it expires at a time on a day you choose, unless withdrawn earlier. I`d have thought you could withdraw anytime before acceptance as well, but worth adding to the offer "I reserve the right to withdraw my offer at any time prior to acceptance".

TBH, I feel like that is a pretty crappy way to make an offer. In real estate deals, I'd tell people to take a hike if they do time-sensitive offers like that. Don't you think it's rude to not give the seller a reasonable amount of time to think offers thru? I am not condoning the seller take an unreasonable amount of time... and there have been stories of that here too. But if you are talking days/weeks and not hours, then maybe a long-term offer expiration MAY be okay.

 

[dhays]

TBH, I feel like that is a pretty crappy way to make an offer. In real estate deals, I'd tell people to take a hike if they do time-sensitive offers like that. Don't you think it's rude to not give the seller a reasonable amount of time to think offers thru? I am not condoning the seller take an unreasonable amount of time... and there have been stories of that here too. But if you are talking days/weeks and not hours, then maybe a long-term offer expiration MAY be okay.

I don’t have the experience of most here. But every offer I’ve ever made for a boat or real estate has had a time limit. The amount of time needs to be reasonable so the seller has a chance to consider the offer, ie a day or two. In the current real estate market here locally even that may be too long.

 

[Juggerknot]

TBH, I feel like that is a pretty crappy way to make an offer. In real estate deals, I'd tell people to take a hike if they do time-sensitive offers like that. Don't you think it's rude to not give the seller a reasonable amount of time to think offers thru? I am not condoning the seller take an unreasonable amount of time... and there have been stories of that here too. But if you are talking days/weeks and not hours, then maybe a long-term offer expiration MAY be okay.

I politely disagree, a serious seller, be it real estate, boats, cars or widgets should have that magic number in their mind that takes the prize. I have bought and sold damn near everything at one time or another and I can assure you, regardless of listing price, I had a figure that is the "SOLD" take it away price. A waffling or unrealistic seller is a buyers nightmare, pull the trigger, git her done.

 

[BruceK]

TBH, I feel like that is a pretty crappy way to make an offer. In real estate deals, I'd tell people to take a hike if they do time-sensitive offers like that. Don't you think it's rude to not give the seller a reasonable amount of time to think offers thru? I am not condoning the seller take an unreasonable amount of time... and there have been stories of that here too. But if you are talking days/weeks and not hours, then maybe a long-term offer expiration MAY be okay.

Of course I`m not advocating allowing short times,like hours. Though if negotiations back and forth are dragging on,hours might become appropriate.
It`s fairer than making an offer you withdraw, on short or no notice. And it`s open to the other party to respond with "I need more time,like x days/hours because..", they`d likely get it.
Wonder how the OP is getting on..........

 

[wwestman]

We offered $3,000 on a boat that was listed at $25,000. They countered at $15,000. We countered at $12,000 with a three page list of things (and projected cost) that had to be fixed for the $12,000. Then we went sailing for a week. When we got back there was a message that they would take $4,000. It needed work but we had it for over 15 years and sold it for $10,000.

Stick to your guns. Walk away if the price is not right.