Live aboard haters

[Seevee]

In our port we have halve a dozen of junkers but all the rest are very well cared for liveaboards who take pride in both the mechanical and aesthetic condition of their pride and joy.
Unfortunately some people are slobs in whatever walk of life they move in and you will always get that I'm afraid.
Its got nothing to do with race, creed, colour or religion a slob is a slob and you can put them in a 5* hotel and it'll be a slobs house in no time.

Totally agree. And I don't see a requirement of being able to take the boat out as a quality of a good live a board. However, it does seem that the folks that don't use their boat much just have a tenancy to not care for it. And, there is a correlation with wealth and cleanliness. And a live a board can often live on a boat cheaper than a house in town. Poor people just seem to not care about it or just don't want to spend the time or money to take care of stuff. That's probably why they get the reputation... good or bad.

And that's why I don't rent to poor people. I just don't want a slob. And, yes, I can discriminate against poor people.

 

[OldDan1943]

Not all poor people are slobs. I knew of a couple up the hill from me, in a small farm house, big wood burning stove for heat. Their house was always need as a pin.

 

[Art]

Generally, but not always by any means, people who remain poor may simply be lazy. Thus, in the case of laziness, not too much maintenance nor cleaning at their house or boat may occur.

With ways that today's economic bouncing ball is developing it will be interesting to see who is, becomes and/or remains lazy for the long run.

I'm betting on the resilience of our U.S. general public...

Yes, I believe in and practice optimism!

 

[mvweebles]

Ya know, this thread has gotten a bit hi-fallutin with all this talk about poor folk being slobs.

Whenever I see one of those fancy dinners at Buckingham Palace, I marvel at all the silverware on the table. I would look like such a low level cretin to anyone in the room. Worse, I'd go home hungry for fear of using the wrong utensil. Or I'd cause an international incident by saying something stupid like "say, is the lady in the tiara going to eat that last chocolate truffle?"

Pretty sure I'd be looked down on as an ignorant poor person. Hopefully not lazy, but definitely poor.

Peter

 

[Benthic2]

Generally, but not always by any means, people who remain poor may simply be lazy.

I am glad you added the "but not always by any means". That way you don't sound like an insensitive elitist bastard. Well done.

 

[OldDan1943]

Hmmmm, if one cannot bring humor and maybe a little "shock" into the conversation, it just might be a bad day.

Peter, generally speaking, when it comes to 'which to use'?, start from the outside and move inward or you can get a hint by watching others.

There is a story of Mrs Roosevelt and a luncheon. All the ladies were educated on being 'proper' except for one lady. There were finger bowls on the table and the one lady had no idea what to do with it so she picked it up and drank from the bowl.
Everyone was a aghast .... Mrs Roosevelt, in an effort to make this singular lady feel more comfortable, drank from her bowl too. The point was 2 fold, 1. watch and learn, 2. it is more important to make a person feel comfortable than it is to make them feel uncomfortable.
The other incident occurred in Canada. It was a formal dinner for dignitaries. Not sure but I think Prince Charles was there, naturally at the head table with all the very important people. Dinner progressed without a flaw until.... while clearing the tables, this one waitress leaned down and whisper to Prince Charles, "Save your fork, we are having pie."
True or not, both of these stories can teach us humility to a degree.

 

[mvweebles]

Hmmmm, if one cannot bring humor and maybe a little "shock" into the conversation, it just might be a bad day.

Peter, generally speaking, when it comes to 'which to use'?, start from the outside and move inward or you can get a hint by watching others.

There is a story of Mrs Roosevelt and a luncheon. All the ladies were educated on being 'proper' except for one lady. There were finger bowls on the table and the one lady had no idea what to do with it so she picked it up and drank from the bowl.
Everyone was a aghast .... Mrs Roosevelt, in an effort to make this singular lady feel more comfortable, drank from her bowl too. The point was 2 fold, 1. watch and learn, 2. it is more important to make a person feel comfortable than it is to make them feel uncomfortable.
The other incident occurred in Canada. It was a formal dinner for dignitaries. Not sure but I think Prince Charles was there, naturally at the head table with all the very important people. Dinner progressed without a flaw until.... while clearing the tables, this one waitress leaned down and whisper to Prince Charles, "Save your fork, we are having pie."
True or not, both of these stories can teach us humility to a degree.

Touche on the humor part OldDan. I'll chuckle all day at the "save your fork - we're having pie for dessert" story.

Thanks for the levity.

Peter

 

[Hippocampus]

Art we all have different life experiences which color our view of the world. Thought to not respond to your posting “ Generally, but not always by any means, people who remain poor may simply be lazy. Thus, in the case of laziness, not too much maintenance nor cleaning at their house or boat may occur.”. But feel the need to share my view.
For 35+ years dealt with poor people in the course of clinical practice. Although many view this as an effect of racism (which unfortunately truly exists) believe it equally applies to so called “poor white trash” and other groups trapped in poverty. My reality includes:
It’s very expensive to be poor. Inability to buy in bulk enabling ability to wait for bargains. Lack of adequate transport to be able effectively shop. Protein is more expensive than starch. Canned is cheaper than fresh. Nutritional needs are met with a diet which is not conducive to brain development and predisposes adipose tissue to obesity.
Since Skinner we have known a enriched infancy and childhood leads to a economically, intellectually and culturally successful adulthood. Most of my clinic time was spent dealing with chronic disease (genetic, AD,PD, ALS, epilepsy etc.) over the years you get to know these people. Yes, people game the system. But in actuality see more of this gaming in upper middle class and 1%ers than the destitute. For a population who doesn’t have the resources to compete (be they white or black) trans generational poverty is the result. The Horatio Alger story is dead in America. There is less vertical class movement in America now than at anytime in our history.

 

[Rufus]

Let's not move into politics, please.

 

[OldDan1943]

Prior to hurricane season a always make sure I have canned goods on board and fuel enough to move.

 

[Rufus]

The view from all of the slips in our previous marina was very nice. We were out of state summer live aboards and rarely cruised the boat as we got older. I was the unofficial night watchman and helped boats into slips when they arrived after hours. I also provided security. Our boat is impeccable. The marina management appreciated the help...and us. One day I was approached by a resident of the town who did not own a boat. He said he thought we were freeloading....living at low cost in a summer vacation area. I was taken aback and explained that we pay our way just like any transient or a local resident with a boat in the marina. We supported the local economy in every regard. You don't pay taxes he replied, and you have a better view than I do from my house. I explained the considerable costs associated with keeping a boat in the frozen north and invited him to buy our boat (I was serious). I also explained that "seasonal" slip holders brought in more revenue over the season than transients during the two peak summer months. He responded with "we're watching you", and stomped off. We found a slip elsewhere the following year. Our slip was filled by a much smaller boat, and the town lost revenue. Envy is behind a lot of the dislike for live aboards.

 

[mvweebles]

This tangent is interesting because it touches on a topic Psneeld mentioned a page or two ago.

Issue of local governments greatly restricting anchorages which affects cruisers.

You see, just as this thread has devolved into a poverty stricken boater being a problem, the same broad brush strokes are painted by local property owners and thereby governments. Because derelict boats are sort of repugnant to many, onerous laws and ordinances are passed that effect not just them, but legitimate transients who want to spend a few weeks or so in an area.

If we - the boating community - cannot differentiate between types of full time boat residents, how do we expect our non-boating neighbors and regulators to do so?

Peter

 

[Art]

Prior to hurricane season a always make sure I have canned goods on board and fuel enough to move.

Post hurricane season I always make sure to check that my West Coast boat insurance premium has not been drastically increased due to wrecked boat claims from the South East!

 

[O C Diver]

This tangent is interesting because it touches on a topic Psneeld mentioned a page or two ago.

Issue of local governments greatly restricting anchorages which affects cruisers.

You see, just as this thread has devolved into a poverty stricken boater being a problem, the same broad brush strokes are painted by local property owners and thereby governments. Because derelict boats are sort of repugnant to many, onerous laws and ordinances are passed that effect not just them, but legitimate transients who want to spend a few weeks or so in an area.

If we - the boating community - cannot differentiate between types of full time boat residents, how do we expect our non-boating neighbors and regulators to do so?

Peter

I would imagine that the non boating community probably sees two different groups. One are cruisers, that reside for some period of time and move on. The other being more squatters that won't move unless forced to. There is probably an assumption that the second group will eventually become the derelict boats we occasionally see abandoned or sunk. I have a friend who lives aboard at my winter marina. For someone in his 80s, he spends a great amount of time maintaining the appearance of his boat (including having redone all the bright work himself) to avoid being thought of as undesirable. There is another live aboard couple that could be classified as financially challenged, heading in the opposite direction. It's clear to see how the marina management and residence of the community feel about each of the two boats.

Ted

 

[mvweebles]

I would imagine that the non boating community probably sees two different groups. One are cruisers, that reside for some period of time and move on. The other being more squatters that won't move unless forced to. There is probably an assumption that the second group will eventually become the derelict boats we occasionally see abandoned or sunk. I have a friend who lives aboard at my winter marina. For someone in his 80s, he spends a great amount of time maintaining the appearance of his boat (including having redone all the bright work himself) to avoid being thought of as undesirable. There is another live aboard couple that could be classified as financially challenged, heading in the opposite direction. It's clear to see how the marina management and residence of the community feel about each of the two boats.

Ted

Unfortunately, the ordinances being passed do not differentiate. You may rely on selective enforcement, but in the end, chances are that when someone in a condo overlooking your anchorage complains there's a boat that has been anchored for a 73rd hour or does not have someone aboard at all times, the LEO who pays a visit will have limited latitude to selectively enforce.

The fear of some is that the world is closing in for legitimate cruisers. We are being swept into the same debate we've discussed in this thread with the same prejudices about boaters on the lower end of the income scale.

Don't shoot the messenger here. In a perfect world, I'd craft the ordinances to encourage cruisers but penalize the long term anchor outs. But the real issue is that property owners in many places don't want anyone sullying their view. Rich or poor. But they pick on the poor and indigent boat owner because they are an easier target. Problem is that when a grenade goes off in a room, we all get hurt.

Peter

 

[Rufus]

There really aren't any derelicts on the Great Lakes. Boats get pulled every winter, so junkers can't accumulate in anchorages. And boats are kept up. The only junkers that pass through tend to be the occasional Looper boat.
Some local dirt residents just dislike boaters because they have something they don't. Envy. Crazy.

 

[AlanT]

Post hurricane season I always make sure to check that my West Coast boat insurance premium has not been drastically increased due to wrecked boat claims from the South East!

Thread drift I am sorry, but anyway unfortunately it doesn't work quite that way. The retail insurance market (ie insurers directly insuring our boats) is protected by reinsurance. The reinsurance market provides their product by way of treaties. Those treaties can provide the retail market with protection for losses that are "excess of" a dollar sum. So by way of example an insurer may purchase reinsurance excess of $1MM (or $10M or any other number) for any loss. The reinsurer charges for this coverage usually as a flat premium.

So a retail insurer has to pay his reinsurance cost, before setting aside funds for expected future losses. That reinsurance cost is then spread across his entire 'book' of business - increasing premium for all of us. Retail insurers can and do mitigate this "unfairness" by imposing restrictive conditions or higher deductibles for NWS (Named Wind Storm) or other specific regional perils, but at the end of the day we are all paying our share of that reinsurance cost.

In summary it is almost inevitable that we on the W coast will suffer in our premiums from losses on the E coast (or overseas). Equally after a few years of no wind losses (if we can imagine that for a moment) reinsurance costs will go down due to competition and we will benefit from that.

~Alan

 

[kthoennes]

If the Great Lakes are like South Dakota derelict boats still accumulate, they just decay in the back corners of boat yards and not in the waterways.

 

[O C Diver]

There really aren't any derelicts on the Great Lakes. Boats get pulled every winter, so junkers can't accumulate in anchorages. And boats are kept up. The only junkers that pass through tend to be the occasional Looper boat.
Some local dirt residents just dislike boaters because they have something they don't. Envy. Crazy.

Unfortunately, the ordinances being passed do not differentiate. You may rely on selective enforcement, but in the end, chances are that when someone in a condo overlooking your anchorage complains there's a boat that has been anchored for a 73rd hour or does not have someone aboard at all times, the LEO who pays a visit will have limited latitude to selectively enforce.

The fear of some is that the world is closing in for legitimate cruisers. We are being swept into the same debate we've discussed in this thread with the same prejudices about boaters on the lower end of the income scale.

Don't shoot the messenger here. In a perfect world, I'd craft the ordinances to encourage cruisers but penalize the long term anchor outs. But the real issue is that property owners in many places don't want anyone sullying their view. Rich or poor. But they pick on the poor and indigent boat owner because they are an easier target. Problem is that when a grenade goes off in a room, we all get hurt.

Peter

Really think you're overreacting. Most LEOs aren't going to see this as a high priority. IMO, most jurisdictions are going to have a tiered approach based on getting rid of potential problems versus asking boats that are clearly short term, to move on.

Ted

 

[SteveK]

I am jealous. This thread has made me realise that liveaboard boaters spend more time on their boat. That is unfair and must be stopped immediately. All boats should sit empty in the marina, just floating around.

 

[mvweebles]

Really think you're overreacting. Most LEOs aren't going to see this as a high priority. IMO, most jurisdictions are going to have a tiered approach based on getting rid of potential problems versus asking boats that are clearly short term, to move on.

Ted

Here's how it seems to be working these days based on what I read and what I see in my little neck of the ICW.

Some boats move into an anchorage. Boats being, well, boats, not uncommon to have residences nearby. For whatever reason, the property owners don't like the idea of these long term anchor outs. So they go to the town counsel meetings and make a bunch of calls and generally become the squeaky wheel.

The property owners don't complain about their lost view or anything. Nope, these are real crusaders who are worried about raw sewage and boats that wash up after a storm. A very altruistic argument (well, except they don't complain about boats anywhere else except the ones in front of their condo bldg)

So the town counsel passes an ordnance that any anchored boat must get a permit, can stay for no longer than 72 hours, and must visit the pump out dock at least once. In some cases, the ordnance reads the boat cannot be left unattended. In parts of Georgia, you cannot anchor within a certain distance of a private property (something like 500 feet or a some sort of impossible to comply with distance) These are 100% intended to make it difficult or impossible for any boat, derelict or pristine transient, to anchor.

Now Ted, you're right. LEO isn't going to be proactive about this. But when the phone rings because a property owner complains, they are obligated to do something.

Rinse/Repeat. Georgia, Florida, PNW.

Peter

 

[Art]

Primarily due to pandemic reasons [our age and conditions make us susceptible to possible death from catching the virus] we have been quite neglectful of cleaning our under a roof boat's exterior... it's a 100 mile drive away. So, this week [even though the pandemic is running rampant in the county/town we dock] we plan going to brave Covid-19 and reach the boat for a good wash down. May even stay one night at dock... even though we'd much rather take her out for a while, but have obligations at home

Imagine our Tolly looks pretty grunge right now... due to bird poop, area dust from vegetable farms and spider webs. May take before and after photos to show here. One way it can be discerned that our boat is not a basket case [no matter how much exterior dirt has recently affixed itself] is the up to date registration stickers on her bow! Yea!!!

Stay safe! Stay healthy!!

 

[kthoennes]

Boy, Rufus' post above about getting hassled for being a freeloader in a seasonal marina or waterway -- you were way nicer than I'd be. We're in the same situation in Yankton in the spring/summer and early fall, but we never get any grief. The majority of slipholders are weekenders but there are a scattering of liveaboards too (seasonal of course). I wouldn't have been as nice to that local. I would have told that local that yes, I may not pay property taxes directly, but we certainly do indirectly with every single thing we buy there. You don't plow snow for us, you don't run utilities to our house, you don't operate and maintain schools for our kids, etc. We keep your restaurants and stores alive, we keep your city residents employed with everything from marina work to grounds keeping to enough business for six boat dealers.

In South Dakota the first couple digits of a standard license plate is the county number, so unless you have a vanity or commercial plate you can tell where the driver is from. Go to Walmart on a weekend and the parking lot is packed with out-of-county residents.

 

[O C Diver]

Now Ted, you're right. LEO isn't going to be proactive about this. But when the phone rings because a property owner complains, they are obligated to do something.

Rinse/Repeat. Georgia, Florida, PNW.

Peter

Yup, there going to put that high on their priority list, just below the complaint against the neighbor who is in violation of the town ordinance on the height of lawn grass.

I can see a more aggressive approach if towns have a marine patrol division that is underway. Most local law enforcement is under funded and need to prioritize the use of assets. I can see them sending a car by to assess the situation. Going to the effort to launch a boat to deal with a problem that will probably be gone tomorrow, not likely.

Ted

 

[mvweebles]

Yup, there going to put that high on their priority list, just below the complaint against the neighbor who is in violation of the town ordinance on the height of lawn grass.

I can see a more aggressive approach if towns have a marine patrol division that is underway. Most local law enforcement is under funded and need to prioritize the use of assets. I can see them sending a car by to assess the situation. Going to the effort to launch a boat to deal with a problem that will probably be gone tomorrow, not likely.

Ted

In my area, as I believe most/all of Florida, there is at least county sheriff water patrol. Larger areas have city police in boats.

Pinellas County Sheriff's deputies seem to have no problem finding time to roust boats. They are polite I suppose, and it may wait until Monday, but they find the time.

Peter

 

[psneeld]

I think the guy who started a mess in the Miami area who wound up anchoring a bunch of small sailboats off his property was getting traction from local law enforcement because he had juice with the Mayor or Chief of Police.

 

[BandB]

Let's not move into politics, please.

Wifey B: But lets not allow classifications of poor people as lazy. That's such total BS and some of the cleanest homes I've ever been in were poor people and my fave family in the world is three daughters raised by a poor couple and I consider the couple among our best friends while all three daughters have excelled.

As to liveaboards, marinas need to police their boats and grounds.

As to cats and dogs, neither should be allowed to run free and over the boats of others or into the bodies of others.

The fact people live on boats isn't the problem. The problem is some of those who do and they should be dealt with, but not by prohibiting all. Also, on the water, it should be on operable boats and they should be occasionally used. Pretty much same rules apartment complexes have on parked cars.

 

[boatpoker]

I seem to have upset some people with my refusal to survey liveaboard boats so thought i'd provide some background, not an apology, just background.

Many of the people on this forum keep their boats shipshape and there are some here that clearly know what they are doing ... these are not the type of people I usually come across, in fact after thousands of surveys I've concluded that you are quite rare.

The vast majority of boats that I survey have been maintained by people who have less than a clue and a significant number had questionable house training. The majority of liveaboard boats that I've surveyed are dangerous and likely contagious. I have not surveyed a liveaboard vessel since 2014 so I thought I'd show you the last one I did, the one that made me say ...
Enough !

PS. I've blanked out any identifying info as I don't like to be sued.

The attached example is not a complete survey but a "Marine Safety Inspection" so read carefully the "Commission" and "Scope" statements. There is a large marina with liveaboards on Lake Ontario. For years they hired me to inspect boats that they thought might be an issue. These inspections were referred to as "Marine Safety Inspections". Those boats continued acceptance at the marina depended on my report. This report is quite brief as I walked off before completing it. I could post very similar "Marine Safety Inspection" and complete "Marine Survey Reports" of a similar ilk every night for the next year ..... Enough !

 

[OldDan1943]

boatpoker, after reading your report may I add a few observations.
OUCH OUCH OUCH.
I am surprised it has not blown up.

 

[Yachtman]

To that inspection, I say ‘no wonder your fed up’ with this work. I’m sure that for everyone of these boom-booms waiting to happen, there are many more. I’ve never see anything like that on any boat I’ve been on. And thank god, as I’m already close to my 9th life.
While reading the ‘general comments and recommendations sections, I had a vision of an old comic book picture of the explosion and the word �� BOOM.
I’m also sure there are many, many, many more that are perfect. And the marinas around us all have mostly impeccable docks and yachts.