Looking at Trawlers

[CMA1992]

So, we have been looking at a lot of boats lately and came upon a late 70's Litton Europa trawler w/twin Lehman 120's. Any opinions or knowledge of these models would be greatly appreciated We like the boat but don't know of the "original" quality of them. Thanks for the help as always.

 

[Adelaide]

It's a Taiwan trawler. It will be important to have a thorough survey in and out of the water. Things to look for:

1: Have the fuel tanks been replaced? Leaking from fittings with standing water on top of the tanks have lead to failure. If they are original tanks, you will want to closely examine them from the top down and inside, if possible. Extremely costly, many people cut them out and replace with a daisy chain of smaller tanks.

2: Does it still have teak decks? check for soft decks and overall condition of the teak and bungs that cover the screws. If the boat's deck has been replaced with solid fiberglass, that is generally a good thing. It is extremely expensive to rip out the teak. Some use truck bed liner as an alternative, with mixed results.

3: Ford Lehman engines are wonderful, easy engines to work on. Parts are readily available in most places. Have an oil sample sent out for testing.

4: Wiring, does the boat have updated wiring with breakers?

5: Check windows for possible leaks, have they been replaced yet? If not, this is a weak spot.

6: where was the boat stored? undercover? boat house? outside?

7: Hull structure, many Taiwan boats have blisters. You'll want to have the boat pulled during the survey. If it has blisters, pay close attention if you see oozing or can induce oozing with a blade. Does it smell like rotten eggs? The surveyor will help you determine if the blisters are structurally concerning for a 40+/- year old boat.

All this looks concerning, but the right boat with the right mindset will offer you years of service and can be the best bang for the buck out there. Also, 70/80's Taiwan Trawlers have mostly bottomed out, it should hold it's value if you take good care of it. There isn't much meat left on the bone for it to depreciate much lower than where they are. I'd recommend storing it in covered moorage, if available, to limit it's further exposure to rain.

Good Luck in your search!

 

[CMA1992]

Thank you for the quick response. Yes it does have all teak decks. What does it take to replace all the teak? Is there a lot of screw holes that need to be plugged when it is removed or is it just a dirty gluey mess? The rest, I will definitely look into and get a haul out survey and engine survey done before I buy. Will know more this weekend. What is "expensive" for the teak replacement/removal. A couple thousand or tens of thousands and do boat yards do this? Thank You

 

[Insequent]

Teak decks are not that expensive to deal with in the overall scheme of things. Whilst some water gets down screw holes missing bungs, most will have entered your core via caulking seams that pulled away from edges. My foredeck was about 100 sq ft. I removed the teak, which had just under 1000 screws holding it down. Then the yard removed the upper GRP skin, in sections, to expose the balsa core which was wet in most places and rotten in about 30% of the total area. This is in a 1981 year Taiwan built boat. We installed 2 x6mm marine ply using vinylester resin, overlapping the edge joins. Then a bunch of glass and vinylester over the top for a new GRP top skin. Filled and faired.... Then it was painted with awlgrip with microballoons sprinkled for non-slip. The yard cost in Port Townsend for this was about $170 per sq ft. Your deck may have ply rather than balsa but it rots just as badly. Subsequently i had my boat deck repaired, but we were able to do it in patches and I only needed to do about 20% of the deck area. We used a 3/8 drill to test soft areas for wetness. Then just move outwards with holes until you find dry core. These drill holes are easy GRP repairs to do whilst you are replacing the wet core.

Pics are of rotten balsa (black), and the process outlined above although not in exact sequence.

For your tank question. Yes, I replaced mine. I ought to have realized that the diesel smell permeating the ER in particular was more than spilt diesel or old injector leaks. Use a camera on a stalk to look under the tanks as well - if you see large amounts of rustflakes then the tanks are pretty much finished. My rust was worst on the outside of the tanks where they rested against the hull. Very difficult to inspect this area, and may not be possible during survey as access might require some cutting away of covering material. Water ingress was mostly rain coming in via the engine room vents, which at that time had no dorade protection system. Water pooled on top of the tanks and ran down the outside of them. Tank replacement is expensive. You have to remove a lot of stuff to get the old ones out, possibly even the engines.

But these old Taiwanese builds are still great boats. Very solid. It is more likely that mid and late 80's will have blisters as that is when yards started to experiment with resin types and layups in order to trim costs. Before that, the layups tended to be overkill - a good thing for longevity though!

 

[healhustler]

Great example and even better information, Brian. The thought of tearing the skin off of one's deck can be overwhelming. Thankfully, I don't seem to have real issues, but even the best 30 year old cored deck is going to show some signs of water intrusion somewhere. Thanks for the share.

 

[Capthead]

Polyester resin is only 87% water proof. Epoxy over 99%
Water absorbs in all FRP hulls, decks etc. This becomes a problem with cored decks and hulls especially.

 

[CMA1992]

Brian, that new deck looks great! Is that $170 a typo because that would be $17,000 for a you 100 Sq ft spot. That sounds scary. It sounds like you did a lot of the work yourself?

 

[Adelaide]

Brian, that new deck looks great! Is that $170 a typo because that would be $17,000 for a you 100 Sq ft spot. That sounds scary. It sounds like you did a lot of the work yourself?

$17,000 on a 50 foot yacht, is nothing, and well worth the money. CMA, not all decks have to be replaced. If it was well cared for, it can outlast you. Same with the Lehman engines. The key is to find a boat that was well cared for, with life left in the decks. The surveyor should be able to tell you that. Good Luck!

 

[Capthead]

Nice job!!

 

[Insequent]

Brian, that new deck looks great! Is that $170 a typo because that would be $17,000 for a you 100 Sq ft spot. That sounds scary. It sounds like you did a lot of the work yourself?

No, it wasn't a typo and your arithmetic is correct. My surveyor had estimated $15k, so I was happy with the outcome. And negotiating the purchase price reflected the deck issue.

My part of the job was removal of the teak and fittings such as the windlass. I could have done more - taking the top skin off and removing the core for example. Heck, even putting the marine ply down etc is within DIY skill-sets. But it does come down to time - they had a couple of guys on it, and I would have been much slower.

Use a hammer to locate soft spots, then drill-test as I described earlier. If your caulking seams only had a few bad adhesion areas then you may find that the total sq ft of core that needs to be replaced isn't that large anyway.

 

[psneeld]

DYI deck repair...materials were about $500

 

[Capthead]

Perfect!!!


I'll be posting on my deck project soon, fyi

 

[Adelaide]

DYI deck repair...materials were about $500

Nice work psneeld! I wish I had your skills. That is really clean. How long did it take you?

 

[healhustler]

Super clean!

 

[Art]

Great deck picts guys and real nice looking finished products. I want to reiterate what was intoned here before... so the OP well understands ramifications of the situation.

Best to locate any type or model of a "classic" old boat that may interest you... that is already in good condition (well cared for) before it becomes yours. IMO, keep searching till a boat in good condition is located. Then work a deal with seller regarding price that takes into account items that need attention. If the price remains too high - move on to the next good condition boat you can find.

This is "Pleasure" Boating. We each have different definitions to that phrase. Mine is: Good condition boat, requiring minimum of repair and maintenance, at a good price, that makes luv to me and wife while we make luv to it! Others have different feelings. Some like to often work on their boat. Some don't want to touch a thing on their boat.

We live 100 miles from where boat is kept. When we take days-in-a-row for R&R aboard we like to play and swim and gunk hole in our tow-behind runabout! I enjoy doing what is needed in maintenance/repair while aboard for long weekends; but, I don't want work to much... we are there for "Pleasure" and to unwind from busy lives.

I also recommend covered berth. It minimizes sun and rain and wind damage to your beloved boat. The small extra cost compared to open berth is minimal. I am confident that savings on boat needs pay for most or not all of covered berth annual rent. And, savings in my time for maintenance/repair is priceless.

Another great reducer in boat repairs/costs is to dock in fresh water... for many reasons! Also dock at marinas that are not "HOT" regarding stray electrical currents in the water - that goes for fresh or salt water areas. Salt is a great current conductor.

Happy Boating Daze! - Art

 

[psneeld]

Nice work psneeld! I wish I had your skills. That is really clean. How long did it take you?

Probably about 3 weeks for the flybridge due to the large section I cut out and replaced.

2 weeks for the side decks...by then I had the system down pretty well.

I love that picture ...hardly any of the imperfections show...

My boat is/was such a mess...I'm running full speed while part time work, 4 months winter cruise and living aboard all slow the processes down and force me to do many things at the 80 percent level.

Which may still be better than some peoples work and in some cases better than new...but I figure to get the boat safe, seaworthy, comfortable and cruisin'...it's going to be the 80 percent rule and fix things as I get back to them or as I tear them apart while working on a new system.

 

[CMA1992]

Thanks for all the info and inspiration The one thing I know for sure about whatever boat we purchase is that it will live uncovered in San Francisco. We want to keep it at Pier 39 so not only will we have a boat on the Bay but also a place to stay on weekends, especially during those 100 degree days we have in the Sacramento valley. So maybe I need to find a boat with a lot less Teak decking or none at all? We really like the idea of having the entire back deck and most of the side decks under Hard cover. Also, are there many boats out there that have the Forward facing windows that are older and not $200k? Am I correct in assuming that window design will lower the chances of having leaky front windows, since the boat will not be in a covered slip? Thank you all for such great advice and help. We will find the "right gal" someday

 

[FF]

Am I correct in assuming that window design will lower the chances of having leaky front windows,

The quality of the build will determine how rapidly windows leak.

 

[Mule]

You might check these out. Friend of mine has one, I am impressed. He has the 4 stroke 8.2 Detroit. Had to change out tanks but easy job as tank changing goes. Huge engine room. Look at the singles if you swing that way.

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...&city=&cint=100&pbsint=&boatsAddedSelected=-1

I think some carpentry might be a thought, those Ozzie & Harriet beds do not cut it.

 

[CMA1992]

Mule, thanks for the link. Those boats look really nice, I have never seen those Roughwater Boats. Probably because I definately want twin diesels as I want to take it to the Farallon islands (Aprox 30 miles outside the Golden Gate) and do not feel comfortable going out there on a single. I do appreciate the help though
As for the quality of the boat, how do you find out if they are quality boats since they (late 70's/early 80's) are hard to find info on and I have read that many of the same boats could have been built in seperate "factories" and therefor the difference in quality could be significant depending on where it was built? I am new to the "big" pleasure boat world and so my knowledge of such things is far less than most of you out there - hope some of my questions are not "dumb". As one of my Professor's always said "the only dumb questions are the one not asked" (Ha Ha) Thanks as always

 

[Art]

Ahoy- - >CMA

Take a gander at this baby that it appears just came on the market. Seems a beaut; prob won't last long...

Best Luck! - Art

47' Chris Craft Commander Classic - $99,500 (alameda)

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/boa/4673869348.html

 

[Mule]

Single vs twin is kindda a religious thing. I am a single guy using the rational that most engine failures are caused by fuel, so unless you have a split system and do not fill up both at once then both engines go due to fuel.
Read through this about the US to Ireland, same 135 I have. Slow but just keeps on keeping on.

http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/search.php?searchid=724913

Either works and I might have bought a twin if this one had not fallen in my lap. It is on the East Coast, Tollycraft 44.

 

[CMA1992]

Mule, if you are talking about Richard on Dauntless, I followed that trip everyday when I got home. Sounds like a lot of fun but to much blue water for me on such a small boat. I don't have the guts (or knowledge) to do something like that but what a lifetime achievement for him and his wife

 

[CMA1992]

Art, Thanks for the tip on the Chris Craft! We are looking for a boat that does not have a tall aft cabin since I want to be able to fish off the back and side decks like the 48/49 Defever, 42 Grand Banks ect. If we go towards thatChris Craft style, we like the 96 and newer Bayliner 3988 w/twin 5.9 Cummins. It is so hard to figure out what you want/need/can't live without in all these types of boats (as I am sure you all know )
And another question for all. What is the Etiquette on putting an offer on a boat? Since there is no Kelly Blue Book (I Think), how do you figure out what it is worth. And if they are asking 85k for example, do you offer 75 if that is what you want to pay, or do you do the survey's 1st and then make the offer? Thanks again!

 

[Mule]

Yeah..guts...some fun, lotta boredom a for me some sheer terror..
I do not have the ability, the guts or the will for what he did. Not gonna worry about a single anymore though.

 

[ksanders]

As for the quality of the boat, how do you find out if they are quality boats since they (late 70's/early 80's) are hard to find info on and I have read that many of the same boats could have been built in seperate "factories" and therefor the difference in quality could be significant depending on where it was built? I am new to the "big" pleasure boat world and so my knowledge of such things is far less than most of you out there - hope some of my questions are not "dumb". As one of my Professor's always said "the only dumb questions are the one not asked" (Ha Ha) Thanks as always

I would submit that any boat that was built in the 70's or 80's and is still operational, and nice looking was probably pretty good quality in the first place.

Instead of focusing on brands, you should probably be focusing on how a boat looks today. That will tell you allot about how its been maintained.

 

[Scary]

Pier 39 and other bay locations

Pier 39 is not a good location. It has parking inconvenience, access issues with traffic and worse of all, it has surge. The boats never sit still and tug at the lines constantly. It's used to be the big deal to own a dock at pier 39 so you could loan it out on weekends for your friends. I had one could not wait to sell it. The weather there tears boats up as well.
A berth in the Oakland Estuary or Sausalito is much much better. You can take the ferry to the city from Oakland or Alameda.
As to the Fallalons, much over rated, you can't get off, so unless your fishing and once you've see the beauty and ruggedness, you've seen it. Weather permitting you can do it in a solid 16' Whaler or similar open boat. it's done all the time. I've seen 16' aluminum skiffs out there.
That Chris in the post is very clean, and a great entertaining boat. Those old Commanders are very solid boats with many owners maintaining them in near show condition. I've seen that boat and it is located, in Alameda at Grand Marina, A great location for berthing your boat. I kept a boat next door at Fortman for several years. Much better weather and plenty to do in a Norman Rockwell town of Victorian homes.
As to fishing, most fisherman in the SF bay like fast 26' or so boats that get them out the gate fast and back in before it turns to crap. Solid boats like the Farallon 27 or Osprey. Bayliner trophy, Davis or Boston Whaler's. Boats that can come back in in 6'rs and do it at 22 mph or faster.

 

[Art]

Wow my boat desiring friend: You just included sooooo many important items/questions/statements in that post! Go to the below and in bold are my quick help notes. Some of your quandaries/statements have been provided volumes of info on this forum as well as throughout the boating community. Books have been written on many of them. I advise that you use TF's "Search" feature. IMO you have lots of reading and learning to do. BTW - how much experience/time/background do you have regarding marine doings and what is your "boat budget"? A "Boat Dollar" = $1,000!

Art, Thanks for the tip on the Chris Craft! Your welcome! We are looking for a boat that does not have a tall aft cabin since I want to be able to fish off the back and side decks like the 48/49 Defever, 42 Grand Banks ect. OK! If we go towards that Chris Craft style, we like the 96 and newer Bayliner 3988 w/twin 5.9 Cummins. OK! It is so hard to figure out what you want/need/can't live without in all these types of boats (as I am sure you all know ) That is your first and foremost need – Know what you want in a boat, then go find a boat that satisfies at least a large %age of your desires. All boats are a compromise!!

And another question for all. What is the Etiquette on putting an offer on a boat? OMG – Can you deal?? Horse trading and boat trading are similar. Of course, each product (boat) and each person (owner, boat dealer, bank, repo agency… etc) you are trying to purchase product from has its own particulars/peculiarities. Since there is no Kelly Blue Book (I Think) there are basic rules of thumb sites available on the net – but those prices mean not too much in reality, how do you figure out what it is worth. Surveyor can help – but – it’s really up to the purchaser And if they are asking 85k for example, do you offer 75 if that is what you want to pay We’re back to horse trading again!, or do you do the survey's 1st and then make the offer? Usually the offer with money in earnest as well as strict contingencies that protect you is made first. From there you proceed Thanks again!

There are boat brokers (and, horse traders – lol) on TF that can further fill-out answers for you…

Best Luck!! - Art

 

[CMA1992]

KSanders, that is a great point about the older boats! Since I have seen many boats of similar age and make, some look great and some look like they have been through a storm (or 2) I guess I was hoping or the, "stay away from so so boat - they are the same quality as a 1975 Ford Pinto in automotive terms" kind of answer.
SCary, are there any covered berths in the Bay Area? We checked a lot of marinas in the Bay Area and did not like any of them (Richmond, Emeryville, and both sides os Alameda). They are too "quite" for us if you can believe that we did notice the "parking" issues at pier 39 when we went down there to check on the Berthing options but really did like the (wife liked) the shopping and dining there. We'll see. Need to find the boat 1st
Art, thanks for all those BOLD answers, that was really easy reading! As far as my experience goes, I was a licensed Marine Engineer until 2001 (career change - didn't like being gone for 4 months at a time, but wouldn't give up my experiences for anything) on Large boats like the Exxon Valdez. I know that Pleasure Boats are a whole new gig so I am no expert - but I do know that Port is Left and Starboard is Right - I think That is also why I like the Trawler Style Boats, I am not in any hurry and the older Trawlers are closer to what I know than the newer boats. When I was sailing, most phones still had cords attached to them (ha ha) Budget was $175K if we sell he RV, 50-70k if we keep it. We are going back and forth with that at well
BTW, Going to look at a Trawler tomorrow, may have a few questions, wish us luck !

 

[CMA1992]

Well, we looked at a boat yesterday and we might put in an offer, but the question is now, after reading what Bligh went through with his engine surveyor, can anyone recommend someone in the Sacramento Delta area that will do a good job? Sound like the guy that did Bligh's didn't do anything other than look at the paint. Thanks as always