MMSI rant, part two

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BDofMSP said:
Illegal to whom? If you have a Boat US MMSI you have one voluntarily already. Is an MMSI required for every vessel in Canada, including US vessels?
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MMSIs as I understand it are amended to a FCC ships station license. The FCC is the controlling authority issuing ships station licenses and it is illegal to operate a marine VHF without one. However, the FCC has authorized BoatUS to issue ships station licenses, and their MMSIs to voluntary vessels (ie recreational vessels that are not required to carry a VHF radio) who do not sail in, or communicate with, foreign waters or stations.


So to answer your question, if you voluntarily apply for and use an MMSI, you still have to comply with the law. So you don't have to have an MMSI but if you do have one you have to comply with the issuing authorities rules, which in this case, is the FCC.
 
dhays said:
MMSIs as I understand it are amended to a FCC ships station license. The FCC is the controlling authority issuing ships station licenses and it is illegal to operate a marine VHF without one. However, the FCC has authorized BoatUS to issue ships station licenses, and their MMSIs to voluntary vessels (ie recreational vessels that are not required to carry a VHF radio) who do not sail in, or communicate with, foreign waters or stations.
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Not quite. If only operating within the US and you're a vessel not required to have a VHF at all (which covers most of us here), you don't need a ship's station license to have one. However, if you go to Canada or any other country that expects you to be licensed, you need to get one (and an operator's license).

The MMSI thing is kinda separate from licensing, although getting an FCC Ship's Station License will get you an MMSI from the FCC. A BoatUS MMSI is just an MMSI, nothing more.
 
rslifkin said:
Not quite. If only operating within the US and you're a vessel not required to have a VHF at all (which covers most of us here), you don't need a ship's station license to have one. However, if you go to Canada or any other country that expects you to be licensed, you need to get one (and an operator's license).

The MMSI thing is kinda separate from licensing, although getting an FCC Ship's Station License will get you an MMSI from the FCC. A BoatUS MMSI is just an MMSI, nothing more.
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Exactly!! :thumb:
 
twistedtree said:
It's not.


The way it's supposed to work is that when you buy a boat that has an MMSI, the MMSI stays with the boat, and nothing needs to be reprogrammed. That's part of why it's not easy to re-program - you should never have to do it.


Then, depending on who issued the MMSI, you are supposed to transfer it from the old owner to you. This should be standard procedure in any boat sale, but of course nobody thinks about it at the time, and I expect brokers don't want to do anything that will slow or delay closing. So it gets ignored.


If BoatUS issued the MMSI, then you get the original owner to transfer the account over to you. You update with your contact info, and you are done. All that needs to be re-programmed is the boat name that's reported by AIS, and I think you can change that on Class B devices, but I'm not positive.


If the FCC issued the MMSI, then it gets released when the previous owner cancels their SA license. Once again, I expect this gets ignored 90% of the time. Then, when you apply for your own SA license, you can request the already assigned MMSI and should be granted it, provided it was properly released.


Note that unlike an MMSI which follows the boat, the FCC SA license does not, and needs to be cancelled when the boat is sold.


So if you follow the intended procedure, all that needs to be re-programmed is the boat name in the AIS, and perhaps the call sign (can't remember if that's in Class B).
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I know on Raymarine you can change the user information such as boat name and the like. Not sure what unit you have. I have the Raymarine 650 and was able to download the Proais2 software from their site and connect my computer to the unit, done in 5 minutes.
 
4fun1 said:
I know on Raymarine you can change the user information such as boat name and the like. Not sure what unit you have. I have the Raymarine 650 and was able to download the Proais2 software from their site and connect my computer to the unit, done in 5 minutes.
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ProAIS is what I've used too. I just couldn't remember if you can change the boat name.
 
rslifkin said:
Not quite. If only operating within the US and you're a vessel not required to have a VHF at all (which covers most of us here), you don't need a ship's station license to have one. However, if you go to Canada or any other country that expects you to be licensed, you need to get one (and an operator's license).

The MMSI thing is kinda separate from licensing, although getting an FCC Ship's Station License will get you an MMSI from the FCC. A BoatUS MMSI is just an MMSI, nothing more.
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Yes, thanks. You are correct.
 
Reminds me of the old requirement to have a license for owning a CB.

I have a BoatUS MMSI and I do not have a radio license. Not an issue.
 
rslifkin said:
The key there isn't that going to Canada with a BoatUS MMSI is illegal. It's that going there without an FCC Ship's Station License is illegal whether you have an MMSI from elsewhere or not.
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? What am I missing here?

BoatUS has been authorized by both the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) and the U.S. Coast Guard to assign MMSI numbers only to vessels that meet the following criteria:

Used for recreation only
Not required by law to carry a radio
Do not communicate with or visit foreign ports (i.e. Canada, Bahamas, Mexico & the Caribbean)
 
menzies said:
Third paragraph.

https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=mtmmsi
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quoted to make sure we are seeing the same
"U.S. Non-Federal User
In order to obtain an MMSI, mariners required by regulation to carry a marine radio and those who travel outside the U.S. or Canada to foreign ports must apply to the Federal Communications Commission for a ship station license or an amendment to a ship station license. State and local governments can generally obtain an FCC ship station license at no charge.

Mariners not required to carry a marine radio (e.g. recreational boaters) and who remain in U.S. waters can obtain an MMSI through approved organizations such as BOAT US 1-800-563-1536, SEA TOW 1-800-4SEATOW, U.S. Power Squadron, and Shine Micro (primarily for AIS)."
Sorry but I read pleasure boats do not need MMSI to travel in/out of US/Canada because they are not required to have a radio. It appears to be optional so those with AIS can see the name of the target vessel.
Outside of Canada/US we would have to get all of the above.
 
Soo-Valley said:
quoted to make sure we are seeing the same
"U.S. Non-Federal User
In order to obtain an MMSI, mariners required by regulation to carry a marine radio and those who travel outside the U.S. or Canada to foreign ports must apply to the Federal Communications Commission for a ship station license or an amendment to a ship station license. State and local governments can generally obtain an FCC ship station license at no charge.

Mariners not required to carry a marine radio (e.g. recreational boaters) and who remain in U.S. waters can obtain an MMSI through approved organizations such as BOAT US 1-800-563-1536, SEA TOW 1-800-4SEATOW, U.S. Power Squadron, and Shine Micro (primarily for AIS)."
Sorry but I read pleasure boats do not need MMSI to travel in/out of US/Canada because they are not required to have a radio. It appears to be optional so those with AIS can see the name of the target vessel.
Outside of Canada/US we would have to get all of the above.
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Yes, as discussed. No one has to have a vhf radio or AIS. No one has to have an MMSI.

But if you are a US vessel and have a VHF radio and are planning to travel outside of the US (assuming you are not going to turn off your VHFs for the duration and not use them), you must get:

A ships radio license. (valid for 10 years).

An radio operator's license (valid for life).

And if you chose to have an MMSI (you do not have to) then it must be an FCC MMSI.
 
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The link above is your homeland security saying outside Canada and US.
Those of us in the PNW don't have to have it period.
 
Here's the bottom line guys.

The Operator's License is for life.

The ship license is for 10 years.

I don't have the latest, but from memory both together cost ~ $200.

Why dicker given how much we spend on our boats.

If you are absolutely sure that you will never leave the US, roving the lakes and rivers, then great.

Otherwise why nickle and dime. Just get the licenses.
 
I agree. If you can, just get the old owner to release the MMSI. When I sold my last boat, I did this and the new owner just registered it. It was an FCC MMSI (not BoatUS, etc). It worked fine. He didn't have to reprogram the radios, or anything.
 
Been going to BC regularly for 30 years. The reality is that hardly anyone has a ship station license. I’ve met maybe two in that time and both were ham operators. I’m sure there are others, but Canada does not care.

Those claiming you must have it, are absolutely correct of course. At least as far as the US is concerned, it the US has never done much enforcement in Canada as far as I know. I think when BC finally becomes a US state I might get one myself. (This was a joke, no actual Canadians were intentionally harmed)

I’ll be heading to Canada later today. This time I’m finally going to remember to shut off my vhf as soon as I’m halfway across boundary pass.
 
ghost said:
Been going to BC regularly for 30 years. The reality is that hardly anyone has a ship station license. I’ve met maybe two in that time and both were ham operators. I’m sure there are others, but Canada does not care.

Those claiming you must have it, are absolutely correct of course. At least as far as the US is concerned, it the US has never done much enforcement in Canada as far as I know. I think when BC finally becomes a US state I might get one myself. (This was a joke, no actual Canadians were intentionally harmed)

I’ll be heading to Canada later today. This time I’m finally going to remember to shut off my vhf as soon as I’m halfway across boundary pass.
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No need to shut it off, just remove the mic, you are allowed to listen. Still have not found where it is illegal to transmit without a station license.
BTW, halfway across is not the border, you will know when you cross the line if you watch your depth sounder change from fathoms to the metric depth. :rofl:
 
To my knowledge, which may be flawed, the situation is this. Cross jurisdiction situations aside, treaties, international law, and common sense give each country the right to regulate radio within their borders and waters. Different countries have different rules about who can transmit and how and under what licensing. Treaties provide for reciprocation of certain types of licenses.

If you dont have a license, there is nothing to reciprocate. As an unlicensed alien under foreign jurisdiction, you have whatever right to use your radio that is granted by their law and are subject to their enforcement practice.

As an FCC license holder, you have the right to use your radio as granted by treaty among the nations guaranteeing reciprocity for certain classes of license holders.
 
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Keith
I've heard the same in BC, but we elected to get a VHF operator's license and be done with it. I fully appreciate the lack of potential VHF enforcement as bigger CG issues are in play. But since we keep our vessel in BC, if we ever have an "emergency" issue in Canada, I'd like my insurer and potential responders to be happy that crew and vessel are legal in as many respects as possible.

To that end, we have BC and WA boater's cards.
 
There you go. It is a REGULATION not a LAW. I have a Boat US mmsi number and I don't have a radio licence and don't plan to get one. ASD is doing just fine.
 
Soo-Valley said:
The link above is your homeland security saying outside Canada and US.
Those of us in the PNW don't have to have it period.
Click to expand...


I understand how you could (mid)interpret the link above to mean that if you stay in the US and Canada you don’t need a ships station license. Unfortunately, you are wrong.

Here is what the FCC says. https://www.fcc.gov/wireless/bureau-divisions/mobility-division/ship-radio-stations

You do not need a license to operate a marine VHF radio, radar, or EPIRBs aboard voluntary ships operating domestically.

And...

Ships are considered as operating domestically when they do not travel to foreign ports or do not transmit radio communications to foreign stations. Sailing in international waters is permitted, so long as the previous conditions are met. If you travel to a foreign port (e.g., Canada, Mexico, Bahamas, British Virgin Islands), a license is required. Additionally, if you travel to a foreign port, you are required to have an operator permit.

So if I head out Juan de Fuca Strait into the Pacific and don’t contact anyone in Canada via radio on the way, I don’t need a ships station license. However, if I talk to Victoria radio, or Canadian traffic control, or if I stop anywhere in Canadian waters, then I need to have an FCC issues ships station license. The FCC is required by treaty to issue ships station licenses and therefore require boats that travel outside the US, who have a VHF radio to be licensed.

Now, are we at risk of some penalty or fine if we don’t? Probably not. Many PNW boaters don’t comply with the law with impunity. That doesn’t mean that they are operating legally.

The actual rule can be found in the Code of Federal Regulations, Title 47, Chapter 1, Sub-chapter D, Part 80.13

https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-i...d53d2b88a&mc=true&node=se47.5.80_113&rgn=div8

§80.13 Station license required.
(a) Except as noted in paragraph (c) of this section, stations in the maritime service must be licensed by the FCC either individually or by fleet.

(b) One ship station license will be granted for operation of all maritime services transmitting equipment on board a vessel. Radiotelegraph and narrow-band directing-printing equipment will not be authorized, however, unless specifically requested by the applicant.

(c) A ship station is licensed by rule and does not need an individual license issued by the FCC if the ship station is not subject to the radio equipment carriage requirements of any statute, treaty or agreement to which the United States is signatory, the ship station does not travel to foreign ports, and the ship station does not make international communications. A ship station licensed by rule is authorized to transmit radio signals using a marine radio operating in the 156-162 MHz band, any type of AIS, any type of EPIRB, and any type of radar installation. All other transmissions must be authorized under a ship station license. Even though an individual license is not required, a ship station licensed by rule must be operated in accordance with all applicable operating requirements, procedures, and technical specifications found in this part.

[61 FR 58010, Nov. 12, 1996, as amended at 62 FR 40304, July 28, 1997; 71 FR 60074, Oct. 12, 2006]

The way to read this is that you must have a ships station license unless you don’t travel to foreign ports or communicate internationally. For those of us in the US, that does mean Canada.

The phrase A ships station is license by rule means that by default any VHF radio in a recreational boat that doesn’t travel or communicate internationally or isn’t required to carry a VHF for any other reason, is granted license by this rule to use their radio. However, as soon as we join or talk to our Canadian friends, we need an individual license issued by the FCC.

Of course the FCC only regulates US boats. I have no idea who regulates Canadian boats but Canada still operates under the same international treaties. Canada will have developed its own rules to comply with its treaties.
 
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I would say with all the boats I see in Puget Sound and all the waters north, no one cares if you have an FCC license or not.
 
sunchaser said:
Keith
I've heard the same in BC, but we elected to get a VHF operator's license and be done with it. I fully appreciate the lack of potential VHF enforcement as bigger CG issues are in play. But since we keep our vessel in BC, if we ever have an "emergency" issue in Canada, I'd like my insurer and potential responders to be happy that crew and vessel are legal in as many respects as possible.

To that end, we have BC and WA boater's cards.
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I believe we are not yet comparing apples to apples.

Canada and the US formerly both required a VHF Station license and Operator licenses.
Canada still requires Operators to have their personal license, ROC-M (Radio Operator's Certificate- Marine). This is simple to obtain and is good for life.
Several years ago the requirement for a Station license was cancelled in Canada. That license applied to the radio itself and had to be renewed constantly, at nominal, but inconvenient expense. That would be equivlent to the FCC License.

The Boater's card is entirely different. In Canada it is the PCOC (Pleasure Craft Operator's Certificate) and does not pertain to the radio in any way.
That is the Certificate that allows one to operate a PWC after a certain age, restricts youngsters from excessive hp, and that we here in TF all have had for so long we can't recall how easy it was to get it.
 
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