My list of boat pre-purchase questions
- Thread starter Ralsy
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The friendliest place on the web for anyone who enjoys boating.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
Bryant
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Buying
Hire the best surveyor you can find and give him that list of questions. If you buy the boat, find the best diesel mech available and give him that list of questions and tell him to fix what’s wrong. It won’t be cheap but it will pay off in the long run.
Hire the best surveyor you can find and give him that list of questions. If you buy the boat, find the best diesel mech available and give him that list of questions and tell him to fix what’s wrong. It won’t be cheap but it will pay off in the long run.
sunchaser
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Ralsy
Virtually every question you've got on your list (and more) is listed in my maintenance log book. This log book, and boxes of back up invoices if work contracted out, would be available once a contract offer is agreed to in writing by both parties.
I would not consider a vessel where an adequate, up-to-date and completed maintenance log were non existent. Your list should be specific for the vessel in question.
Is this an FRP or steel vessel?
Virtually every question you've got on your list (and more) is listed in my maintenance log book. This log book, and boxes of back up invoices if work contracted out, would be available once a contract offer is agreed to in writing by both parties.
I would not consider a vessel where an adequate, up-to-date and completed maintenance log were non existent. Your list should be specific for the vessel in question.
Is this an FRP or steel vessel?
The only relevant question is to ask your surveyor, "How much do you charge."
When selling real estate I am obliged to notify a potential buyer of any known defects. I treat a boat sale the same way. If there is a significant issue that I know about, you will also know about it.
The majority of your questions would be addressed in a normal survey, although many of the items are related to maintenance that I would complete upon the purchase of any boat. I don't really care when the impeller was last replaced. I'm going to take care of that before the first trip.
There are too many dreamers looking at boats who are more than willing to waste your day asking a thousand questions. Sign the contract, do your survey, if you're not a complete idiot I will do my best to make it a pleasant process and patiently answer all your questions to the best of my ability. But seriously, when was my black water tank last inspected? Never.
When selling real estate I am obliged to notify a potential buyer of any known defects. I treat a boat sale the same way. If there is a significant issue that I know about, you will also know about it.
The majority of your questions would be addressed in a normal survey, although many of the items are related to maintenance that I would complete upon the purchase of any boat. I don't really care when the impeller was last replaced. I'm going to take care of that before the first trip.
There are too many dreamers looking at boats who are more than willing to waste your day asking a thousand questions. Sign the contract, do your survey, if you're not a complete idiot I will do my best to make it a pleasant process and patiently answer all your questions to the best of my ability. But seriously, when was my black water tank last inspected? Never.
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Imo, that's what the problem is with boat brokers and maybe some surveyors, all they want is buyers who have endless money and are not worried about how much they will potentially have to spend on a boat. WHY, would I go and pay $000s for a survey if I can already risk assess potential problems and costs before hand? There seems to be an endemic problem in this industry that if you don't have millions or ask to many questions then you are looked on as a fool. I pity the new to boating buyers that have to deal with someone who has an attitude similar to yours.
In your first post you stated "before signing off."
After terms are agreed in writing, sure, ask reasonable and customary questions.
Sorry mate, it was supposed to mean before i have final settlement and hopefully before survey. I could have worded it differently.
I guess I'm extra particular and tend to risk assess everything that is going to cost me mega bucks. I work in an industry where risk assessing and controlling risk plays a major roll.
Any way, weren't we or aren't we all dreamers in one way or another? For me the journey started by discovering my passion (boating), imagining my ideal life (living on a boat), creating my long-term vision (exploring the east coast of OZ), breaking my vision into stages and creating plans for each stage then living the dream (hopefully)
quinsky
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This is a very interesting discussion. I just listed my boat for sale and I looking to buy a larger one. I'm perplexed by those who say they would find another buyer if presented with a list of questions. My experience in selling a couple of boats (5) was that there wasn't a waiting list of buyers. If I really want to sell my boat I will be willing to provide a potential buyer all the info they ask for. I expect the same from any seller I deal with. You never really know if someone is truly interested in buying until they sign an offer and put down a deposit. I don't want to lose a potential sale because I can't be bothered by a list of questions. To ease the process, I chose a broker who asked for all that info up front. It's his job to deal with the "Lookie Lous".
As a potential buyer I expect the seller, or more likely the broker, to have answers to my questions or be willing to find out. My list isn't quite as extensive because a lot of my questions can be answered by looking at the boat. I'll save most of my questions until after I see the boat. I'll let my "eyes on" inspection determine if I want to spend any more time investigating this particular boat. I've looked at several boats that appeared really nice on the internet but not so good in real life. I think the older the boat, the more questions I will have, and the seller should expect as much. Thats assuming they really want to sell the boat. And I would ask them before making an offer. If the seller is offended by this, so be it. I'm the one spending the money. Whenever I purchase a high dollar item, ie. house, car, boat, I always go into negotiations willing to walk away.
As a potential buyer I expect the seller, or more likely the broker, to have answers to my questions or be willing to find out. My list isn't quite as extensive because a lot of my questions can be answered by looking at the boat. I'll save most of my questions until after I see the boat. I'll let my "eyes on" inspection determine if I want to spend any more time investigating this particular boat. I've looked at several boats that appeared really nice on the internet but not so good in real life. I think the older the boat, the more questions I will have, and the seller should expect as much. Thats assuming they really want to sell the boat. And I would ask them before making an offer. If the seller is offended by this, so be it. I'm the one spending the money. Whenever I purchase a high dollar item, ie. house, car, boat, I always go into negotiations willing to walk away.
Well said and I agree whole heartedly.
Solly
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Geesh there are a bunch of people on here I wouldn't buy from. Anybody who wouldn't answer somebody who took the time and thought to make that list would not make the cut. Just what are you hiding ?????
As long as everybody understands that all boats need work and you are not trying to low ball the price based on the answers where's the beef ?
Don't want to take the time ?? Then don't sell it.
Worried about 'tire kickers' Make your own list and copy it.
Maybe you could phrase it as " What would you (the owner) be looking at if you kept the boat." Try and make everybody feel good about the sale. Personally I think of brokers as used car salesmen. Know very little about the boat in question.
Trust but verify. With the survey.
As long as everybody understands that all boats need work and you are not trying to low ball the price based on the answers where's the beef ?
Don't want to take the time ?? Then don't sell it.
Worried about 'tire kickers' Make your own list and copy it.
Maybe you could phrase it as " What would you (the owner) be looking at if you kept the boat." Try and make everybody feel good about the sale. Personally I think of brokers as used car salesmen. Know very little about the boat in question.
Trust but verify. With the survey.
firehoser75
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"You may as well require the seller and his agents to take a polygraph while you are at it."
I bit disingenuous don't you think???? Rather silly as well
To me, a much more reasonable response. I have not seen an excess of buyers out there. That is why it often takes several months to sell even a "good boat". You would actually "drive" a buyer away because you felt he asked too many questions??? Really?? Your broker should help with the weeding out of "lookey lous". After that, serious buyers who are looking to INVEST a large sum of money into what for them will become an "asset" deserve to have their legitimate questions answered. The earlier comment by the OP about not wanting to replace the seals on the stabilizers (of the boat he just bought) if they were recently done is definitely a real world concern!!!! Unless questions are asked or documentation is supplied, this type of info CANNOT be discerned by a surveyor examining the stabilizers!!!! The surveyor will only say they are working. So why the aversion to this type of question?????
If a seller responded like many of you say you would, I, as a REAL BUYER would walk away from you thinking, "what are they trying so desperately to hide"?
I bit disingenuous don't you think???? Rather silly as well
To me, a much more reasonable response. I have not seen an excess of buyers out there. That is why it often takes several months to sell even a "good boat". You would actually "drive" a buyer away because you felt he asked too many questions??? Really?? Your broker should help with the weeding out of "lookey lous". After that, serious buyers who are looking to INVEST a large sum of money into what for them will become an "asset" deserve to have their legitimate questions answered. The earlier comment by the OP about not wanting to replace the seals on the stabilizers (of the boat he just bought) if they were recently done is definitely a real world concern!!!! Unless questions are asked or documentation is supplied, this type of info CANNOT be discerned by a surveyor examining the stabilizers!!!! The surveyor will only say they are working. So why the aversion to this type of question?????
If a seller responded like many of you say you would, I, as a REAL BUYER would walk away from you thinking, "what are they trying so desperately to hide"?
sunchaser
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The earlier comment by the OP about not wanting to replace the seals on the stabilizers (of the boat he just bought) if they were recently done is definitely a real world concern!!!! Unless questions are asked or documentation is supplied, this type of info CANNOT be discerned by a surveyor examining the stabilizers!!!! The surveyor will only say they are working. So why the aversion to this type of question?????
I'm not sure there is any aversion stated on this thread to answering questions after the contractual terms are entered into. The mutually agreed to contract can even say "all reasonable record requests and other pertinent information will be made available."
As you note Fire, once the surveyor is engaged, there is assuredly a contract in place and questions should indeed be answered. I don't see a problem.
mvweebles
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I reread this thread. The information the OP seeks is fine. Spend a few hours with the seller and take notes. But there is something about the way the OP is requesting (demanding?) answers that piqued my BS radar too.
Some owners keep meticulous records. Others don't. Could be the vagaries of email exchanges like these, but it just felt like the OP was trying to bind a seller who didn't have extensive records.
I once owned a very nice Uniflite 42AC. I bought it right and sold it right. The first purchase fell apart when the surveyor found 3 quarter-sized blisters on the bottom. Buyer went ballistic yelling - and I mean yelling - that blisters had not been disclosed and started threatening to sue everyone involved with the transaction. I distinctly remember his broker getting frustrated with his rant that he finally said "John, if you're worried about a few blisters, maybe a fiberglass boat is not for you."
Might be baggage in my part, but there was something about how the OP phrases the questions that reminded me of that day at the yard 25 years ago........ Can't quite put my finger on it, but I'd be on edge enough that I'd be extremely careful in answering the OPs questions.
Some owners keep meticulous records. Others don't. Could be the vagaries of email exchanges like these, but it just felt like the OP was trying to bind a seller who didn't have extensive records.
I once owned a very nice Uniflite 42AC. I bought it right and sold it right. The first purchase fell apart when the surveyor found 3 quarter-sized blisters on the bottom. Buyer went ballistic yelling - and I mean yelling - that blisters had not been disclosed and started threatening to sue everyone involved with the transaction. I distinctly remember his broker getting frustrated with his rant that he finally said "John, if you're worried about a few blisters, maybe a fiberglass boat is not for you."
Might be baggage in my part, but there was something about how the OP phrases the questions that reminded me of that day at the yard 25 years ago........ Can't quite put my finger on it, but I'd be on edge enough that I'd be extremely careful in answering the OPs questions.
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mvweebles
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Oh, and one additional item for OP - sounds like your Sea Trial is coming up. I wish you the best - attached is a checklist I developed years ago. It's a bit dated perhaps, but plenty of good info.
Best success in your purchase transaction. I hope it goes smoothly!
Peter
View attachment SeaSkills Sea Trial Template.pdf
Best success in your purchase transaction. I hope it goes smoothly!
Peter
View attachment SeaSkills Sea Trial Template.pdf
sunchaser
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Ralsy
Four things:
- relevant questions were previously raised regarding Flexiteak over steel decks
- what material are tanks
- did you get a good steel guy to check construction
- date of last after cooler removal and servicing
Good luck and stick to your guns
Four things:
- relevant questions were previously raised regarding Flexiteak over steel decks
- what material are tanks
- did you get a good steel guy to check construction
- date of last after cooler removal and servicing
Good luck and stick to your guns
Big Thanks! Nicely put together.
I also had a Uni. 1973 31' Sedan, FB, twin screw sportfisher. Nice boats.
Being a business person... the way and reasons Uniflite went broke cuts to the bone. Also the blisters that hurt retail owners cuts deep too.
Again thanks! - Art
Codger2
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I've bought a few boats in my time & I've learned that to nit pick the seller results in him standing his ground in the negotiating process. As noted above, do your own inspection and if you are not qualified then get a friend who is, to go over the boat and make a list. Then, when hiring a surveyor, present the list to him for verification. A list such as you have presented, more often than not will turn off a broker and his seller. I've sold a few boats in my time and if confronted with a buyer and a list like you have published, I'd instruct my broker to respectfully, not make any effort to sell the boat and leave the final say up to me. That list might be valid to some but to me it's too damn long and a waste of time to the broker & seller.
Bobby Lex
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This is my first time posting on the Trawler Forum, so please don't be too hard on the new guy .
First, I think that for the most part the OP's list is exactly the kind of legitimate information any prospective boat buyer would/should want to have before spending 10's of thousands or maybe 100's of thousands of $ on a boat. I'm guessing that even those TF members who posted objections to the list would themselves be seeking similar info as the OP if they were buying a boat.
Second, it seems that quite a few opinions responding to the OP are focused on who to ask for this information (the Seller, the Broker, the Surveyor, the Maintenance Logs, etc.) and/or when to ask for it (before the Offer, after the Survey, after the Closing, etc.). However, I interpret the original post as asking whether there is any other information a prospective buyer should be seeking. Not who to ask, or when to ask for it. If my understanding of the OP's intent is correct, then perhaps a better way to look at the original post is: Is the information sought reasonable and legitimate? If so, then what is the best source for this info? Some of it can be obtained via a Survey. Some of it via examination of Maintenance Logs. But, ultimately some of it is likely to have to come from the owner himself/herself.
There are counter-balancing considerations here: Yes, some buyers aren't really serious about buying. They end up wasting Sellers' time. But IMO, it's the Seller's Broker's job to screen potential buyers. A good Broker will make sure that no one's time is being wasted. OTOH, some Seller's aren't really serious, either. If a Seller says: "Here's my boat. Here's my price. I'm not answering any other questions", you wonder if the Seller is actually serious about selling.
If my Broker came to me with a long list of potential Buyers, I could afford to be picky when it came to answering mundane questions from anal Buyers.
But my experience with selling boats (I've sold a dozen or so over many years) is that it was never that easy. Some of my boats took months and months to sell. I would have been more than willing to answer any legitimate, reasonable question that a potential Buyer had, if it might have helped sell my boat.
To the OP: There's no need for me to reinvent the wheel. I'm going to cut and paste your list into a Word document and use it as a starting point for my next boat purchase. Thanks for doing such a good job!
. First, I think that for the most part the OP's list is exactly the kind of legitimate information any prospective boat buyer would/should want to have before spending 10's of thousands or maybe 100's of thousands of $ on a boat. I'm guessing that even those TF members who posted objections to the list would themselves be seeking similar info as the OP if they were buying a boat.
Second, it seems that quite a few opinions responding to the OP are focused on who to ask for this information (the Seller, the Broker, the Surveyor, the Maintenance Logs, etc.) and/or when to ask for it (before the Offer, after the Survey, after the Closing, etc.). However, I interpret the original post as asking whether there is any other information a prospective buyer should be seeking. Not who to ask, or when to ask for it. If my understanding of the OP's intent is correct, then perhaps a better way to look at the original post is: Is the information sought reasonable and legitimate? If so, then what is the best source for this info? Some of it can be obtained via a Survey. Some of it via examination of Maintenance Logs. But, ultimately some of it is likely to have to come from the owner himself/herself.
There are counter-balancing considerations here: Yes, some buyers aren't really serious about buying. They end up wasting Sellers' time. But IMO, it's the Seller's Broker's job to screen potential buyers. A good Broker will make sure that no one's time is being wasted. OTOH, some Seller's aren't really serious, either. If a Seller says: "Here's my boat. Here's my price. I'm not answering any other questions", you wonder if the Seller is actually serious about selling.
If my Broker came to me with a long list of potential Buyers, I could afford to be picky when it came to answering mundane questions from anal Buyers.
But my experience with selling boats (I've sold a dozen or so over many years) is that it was never that easy. Some of my boats took months and months to sell. I would have been more than willing to answer any legitimate, reasonable question that a potential Buyer had, if it might have helped sell my boat.
To the OP: There's no need for me to reinvent the wheel. I'm going to cut and paste your list into a Word document and use it as a starting point for my next boat purchase. Thanks for doing such a good job!
OldDan1943
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Few if any boats are "turn key". Luckily my AT was as close to 'turn key' as one can get. Did a sea trial, checked the oil, topped off the fuel tanks and brought it down on its bottom from Stuart to Ft Lauderdale area w/o a hitch.
The previous owner did install new batteries at the insistence of his own broker.
The steering leaked at the helm, repaired. The the refit started, some in Stuart and the rest at my dock. The refit was and had been a "let's add" rather than things that needed replacing.
If I separated the repairs from the things I added for my comfort, the 'repair' items would be a sad 2nd place. Pretty much all the money was spent on upgrades. I had a cabinet maker add 5 (?) cabinets to increase the storage space. The cabinet maker started out in Canada .... owning a cabinet shop. Came to the US and continued making cabinets, this time for boats.... and then, his business exploded. There for a while, he relocated his entire shop to a small ship yard and employed every craftsman he trusted, in the Ft Lauderdale area, when he took on a ship big enough for a helicopter and a 30 ft tender on dec, He brought it in under budget and in less time. The owner's wife was pretty much in-charge of making decisions about the cabinets and wood color and any color selection of interior painting. This craftsman even renovated and painted the ER, bilges and all other engineering spaces. Now the business is in the hands of his very capable son.
IF you ask, I will give you the company's name with the understanding, he aint cheap and dont rush him. The best way is to say, "I am thinking about adding some cabinets, where and what do you suggest." LOL
He and his company are as honest as the day is long.
The previous owner did install new batteries at the insistence of his own broker.
The steering leaked at the helm, repaired. The the refit started, some in Stuart and the rest at my dock. The refit was and had been a "let's add" rather than things that needed replacing.
If I separated the repairs from the things I added for my comfort, the 'repair' items would be a sad 2nd place. Pretty much all the money was spent on upgrades. I had a cabinet maker add 5 (?) cabinets to increase the storage space. The cabinet maker started out in Canada .... owning a cabinet shop. Came to the US and continued making cabinets, this time for boats.... and then, his business exploded. There for a while, he relocated his entire shop to a small ship yard and employed every craftsman he trusted, in the Ft Lauderdale area, when he took on a ship big enough for a helicopter and a 30 ft tender on dec, He brought it in under budget and in less time. The owner's wife was pretty much in-charge of making decisions about the cabinets and wood color and any color selection of interior painting. This craftsman even renovated and painted the ER, bilges and all other engineering spaces. Now the business is in the hands of his very capable son.
IF you ask, I will give you the company's name with the understanding, he aint cheap and dont rush him. The best way is to say, "I am thinking about adding some cabinets, where and what do you suggest." LOL
He and his company are as honest as the day is long.
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firehoser75
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Bobby,
Let me be the first. Welcome to the forum and thank you for your first post, which to me is reasonable and well thought out!
I do understand some of the forum members not wanting to "waste time" with what they view are unnecessary questions from people looking at their boat for sale for the first time. But be aware as well, that all "real" buyers do look at the boat for their first time to "start the process", but I admit, that is not the appropriate time for a bunch of maintenance related questions.
However, like you, I find the what I view based on "tone", "stubborn" refusal to provide information, or making that process extremely difficult for interested buyers to be bordering on unbelievable, especially things like I would not sell to you??? Not all potential buyers have "bags of money", and may be stretching themselves to just buy the boat. It is also just prudent for the buyer to try to be able to estimate costs to repair, change, bring up to maintenance standards, etc. to include in their overall "boat budgeting". Again, maybe not "unlimited funds". All of which are consideration in the buying process, at least for some without "big bucks".
For example, I put in deposits and offers on 4 boats over a period of time, finally ending in the successful purchase of my current boat. The first one, we spent several hours with the seller, (her broker could not attend that day), who was very friendly, nice, not pushy, and let us look. When asked she answered any questions we had. However, there was not a maintenance log, but her memory was good and the boat was about 6 years old (original owner). We really liked the boat, but the deal fell through as we really stretched our budget with our agreed price and the Canadian dollar fell like a rock (price was in US dollars) just before sea trial so we decided to walk rather end up hating the boat due to finances. Our cost in Canadian dollars had gone up $40,000 and the dollar still looked like it was dropping with closing still several weeks away. She completely understood.
The second boat was a US boat as well. The selling broker was lazy, did not answer any questions (except the odd one vaguely), and it turned out had lots of incorrect information in the listing. His listing talked about the "unusual engine" that the boat's original owner had selected (much smaller HP than usual) and the reasons for doing so. I asked for him to find out some info for me (the model and serial number) and the boat was moored about 200 feet from his office and in the same marina where he lives. NO. We offered anyway. So, when going to the sea trial, I got the numbers off the engine and with a 5 minute phone call to the manufacturer, I had all of the info I needed. Turns out the HP was actually even lower than the broker had listed (69 HP for a 40 foot trawler). There were no maintenance records for this boat either, and due to how difficult it was to get any relevant information and what we feared was an undersized engine, we decided to not survey the boat. It was disappointing to have to WASTE OUR TIME AS THE BUYER going all the way to Seattle from Vancouver Island spending well over $200 dollars for ferries and gas as well as the better part of a full day, when the broker could have spent 10-15 minutes of his time and/or the seller could have insured that the correct info was in the listing.
The third boat we offered on we completed the sea trial and survey. There were no maintenance records for this boat either. There were a few visual items that caused me concern when we first viewed the boat, but most were most likely easily dealt with with my time and additional money. We ended up walking away from this boat when our surveyor discovered that the hull was separated from the stringer in one location. The selling broker, who insisted that we not use our own broker, told us that this "wasn't important", was not a big deal. During further discussions it became apparent that the seller had the stance of "take it or leave it", so we did (leave it). We caught that broker on more than one outright lie. During this process, the broker we had been using all along as a buyer's broker, kept advising us even though he was not part of this deal. What a great guy, and he doesn't know it, but had this gone through, we would have given some money as a thank you.
Our fourth offer turned out to be successful and is the boat we now own. It too did not have maintenance records. The boat was in overall great condition for it's age. However, having more information may have saved me some money getting the boat up to a good standard point maintenance wise, as I possibly replaced or rebuilt items that may not have actually needed it. The seller in this case was not the original owner so did not have some knowledge of what had been done, but he did try to answer any questions we had. This purchase was an enjoyable experience.
So, from my perspective 4 boats out of 4 that we were serious about did not have maintenance records.
I agree with Bobby above, as a buyer spending hundreds of thousands of dollars and investing hours of my time (with additional money spent to travel, etc.), I am entitled to ask a few questions about the product being offered for sale and the condition and upkeep of the product. I don't feel it is reasonable for the seller to take the position that it is "all up to the buyer" to determine the condition of the boat, and that the seller does not have to help in that process. If the seller had a maintenance log (or records of some kind) or provided a sheet with likely anticipated questions already answered, then he would avoid being "bothered" by what he might otherwise view as "pesky" buyers.
Just saying, by doing it once, the seller would not likely face many questions for those who don't like questions! Free advice, and at some point, all boat owners will be sellers.
Oh, and Ralsy, good luck on your purchase. May it all go smoothly and to your satisfaction. Hopefully you will have a good owner (seller) to deal with.
Let me be the first. Welcome to the forum and thank you for your first post, which to me is reasonable and well thought out!
I do understand some of the forum members not wanting to "waste time" with what they view are unnecessary questions from people looking at their boat for sale for the first time. But be aware as well, that all "real" buyers do look at the boat for their first time to "start the process", but I admit, that is not the appropriate time for a bunch of maintenance related questions.
However, like you, I find the what I view based on "tone", "stubborn" refusal to provide information, or making that process extremely difficult for interested buyers to be bordering on unbelievable, especially things like I would not sell to you??? Not all potential buyers have "bags of money", and may be stretching themselves to just buy the boat. It is also just prudent for the buyer to try to be able to estimate costs to repair, change, bring up to maintenance standards, etc. to include in their overall "boat budgeting". Again, maybe not "unlimited funds". All of which are consideration in the buying process, at least for some without "big bucks".
For example, I put in deposits and offers on 4 boats over a period of time, finally ending in the successful purchase of my current boat. The first one, we spent several hours with the seller, (her broker could not attend that day), who was very friendly, nice, not pushy, and let us look. When asked she answered any questions we had. However, there was not a maintenance log, but her memory was good and the boat was about 6 years old (original owner). We really liked the boat, but the deal fell through as we really stretched our budget with our agreed price and the Canadian dollar fell like a rock (price was in US dollars) just before sea trial so we decided to walk rather end up hating the boat due to finances. Our cost in Canadian dollars had gone up $40,000 and the dollar still looked like it was dropping with closing still several weeks away. She completely understood.
The second boat was a US boat as well. The selling broker was lazy, did not answer any questions (except the odd one vaguely), and it turned out had lots of incorrect information in the listing. His listing talked about the "unusual engine" that the boat's original owner had selected (much smaller HP than usual) and the reasons for doing so. I asked for him to find out some info for me (the model and serial number) and the boat was moored about 200 feet from his office and in the same marina where he lives. NO. We offered anyway. So, when going to the sea trial, I got the numbers off the engine and with a 5 minute phone call to the manufacturer, I had all of the info I needed. Turns out the HP was actually even lower than the broker had listed (69 HP for a 40 foot trawler). There were no maintenance records for this boat either, and due to how difficult it was to get any relevant information and what we feared was an undersized engine, we decided to not survey the boat. It was disappointing to have to WASTE OUR TIME AS THE BUYER going all the way to Seattle from Vancouver Island spending well over $200 dollars for ferries and gas as well as the better part of a full day, when the broker could have spent 10-15 minutes of his time and/or the seller could have insured that the correct info was in the listing.
The third boat we offered on we completed the sea trial and survey. There were no maintenance records for this boat either. There were a few visual items that caused me concern when we first viewed the boat, but most were most likely easily dealt with with my time and additional money. We ended up walking away from this boat when our surveyor discovered that the hull was separated from the stringer in one location. The selling broker, who insisted that we not use our own broker, told us that this "wasn't important", was not a big deal. During further discussions it became apparent that the seller had the stance of "take it or leave it", so we did (leave it). We caught that broker on more than one outright lie. During this process, the broker we had been using all along as a buyer's broker, kept advising us even though he was not part of this deal. What a great guy, and he doesn't know it, but had this gone through, we would have given some money as a thank you.
Our fourth offer turned out to be successful and is the boat we now own. It too did not have maintenance records. The boat was in overall great condition for it's age. However, having more information may have saved me some money getting the boat up to a good standard point maintenance wise, as I possibly replaced or rebuilt items that may not have actually needed it. The seller in this case was not the original owner so did not have some knowledge of what had been done, but he did try to answer any questions we had. This purchase was an enjoyable experience.
So, from my perspective 4 boats out of 4 that we were serious about did not have maintenance records.
I agree with Bobby above, as a buyer spending hundreds of thousands of dollars and investing hours of my time (with additional money spent to travel, etc.), I am entitled to ask a few questions about the product being offered for sale and the condition and upkeep of the product. I don't feel it is reasonable for the seller to take the position that it is "all up to the buyer" to determine the condition of the boat, and that the seller does not have to help in that process. If the seller had a maintenance log (or records of some kind) or provided a sheet with likely anticipated questions already answered, then he would avoid being "bothered" by what he might otherwise view as "pesky" buyers.
Just saying, by doing it once, the seller would not likely face many questions for those who don't like questions!
Free advice, and at some point, all boat owners will be sellers.Oh, and Ralsy, good luck on your purchase. May it all go smoothly and to your satisfaction. Hopefully you will have a good owner (seller) to deal with.
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Premise
Boat For Sale
This is considering person to person actions, not having a dealer on the seller's side - consulting dealer is OK on buyer's side.
1. Usually, if the seller is at all adept at conversation and has sold items before [boats or otherwise], the intent of the buyer can be flushed out relatively quickly over the phone. I.e. is the buyer serious or not?
2. If seller feels the buyer is just "feeling the waters" [i.e. not serious] then the seller can gently, quickly end the conversation. No harm no foul - not too much of seller's time wasted.
3. If seller feels the buyer is serious... then the next steps can be taken between seller and buyer that may or may not lead to actual selling/purchasing of the boat.
Selling and/or purchasing a boat is not rocket science!
IMO, it's the seller's privilege to either continue following through with entertaining the "potential" buyer's requests/needs - or not.
If the buyer seems a good candidate for purchase the seller should be willing to best as possible answer all questions.
Likewise... if the purchaser is seriously interested they should best as possible supply means [such as surveyors, mechanics.. etc] to find out all they can about the boat.
Then, if the buyer and seller can come to an agreement - Two "Best" days happen all at once. The sale and the purchase of a boat!
So... in my opinion:
A. If you can't efficiently handle the increments of selling your boat; then, you should give it to a boat brokerage.
B. If you are simply an effort wasting a lookie-loo... then, get real. And, stop using up a sellers precious time.
C. If you both can act correctly together about the review and purchase of the boat - have a good time coming to terms.
Oh - one more thing. If you are a buyer who knows little about boats - find someone to represent you that does know about boats. Otherwise stay out of the market until you do know more about boats.
As I mentioned above [in #1]: "Usually, if the seller is at all adept at conversation and has sold items before [boats or otherwise], the intent of the buyer can be flushed out relatively quickly over the phone. I.e. is the buyer serious or not?" - - - I know I can tell quickly and the phone conference can end quickly if it's a lookie-loo on the line.
Here's a few initial qualifying questions from seller to buyer:
- How many years you been boating?
- How many boats you owned and do you have one or more now?
- What brand and type boats have you had and what's your favorite?
- You know much about my brand/style boat?
- You figuring on paying cash or do you need bank financing?
Answers to those and similar questions make it pretty easy to tell the callers intent!
Happy Boat-Sale Daze!! - Art
Boat For Sale
This is considering person to person actions, not having a dealer on the seller's side - consulting dealer is OK on buyer's side.
1. Usually, if the seller is at all adept at conversation and has sold items before [boats or otherwise], the intent of the buyer can be flushed out relatively quickly over the phone. I.e. is the buyer serious or not?
2. If seller feels the buyer is just "feeling the waters" [i.e. not serious] then the seller can gently, quickly end the conversation. No harm no foul - not too much of seller's time wasted.
3. If seller feels the buyer is serious... then the next steps can be taken between seller and buyer that may or may not lead to actual selling/purchasing of the boat.
Selling and/or purchasing a boat is not rocket science!
IMO, it's the seller's privilege to either continue following through with entertaining the "potential" buyer's requests/needs - or not.
If the buyer seems a good candidate for purchase the seller should be willing to best as possible answer all questions.
Likewise... if the purchaser is seriously interested they should best as possible supply means [such as surveyors, mechanics.. etc] to find out all they can about the boat.
Then, if the buyer and seller can come to an agreement - Two "Best" days happen all at once. The sale and the purchase of a boat!
So... in my opinion:
A. If you can't efficiently handle the increments of selling your boat; then, you should give it to a boat brokerage.
B. If you are simply an effort wasting a lookie-loo... then, get real. And, stop using up a sellers precious time.
C. If you both can act correctly together about the review and purchase of the boat - have a good time coming to terms.
Oh - one more thing. If you are a buyer who knows little about boats - find someone to represent you that does know about boats. Otherwise stay out of the market until you do know more about boats.
As I mentioned above [in #1]: "Usually, if the seller is at all adept at conversation and has sold items before [boats or otherwise], the intent of the buyer can be flushed out relatively quickly over the phone. I.e. is the buyer serious or not?" - - - I know I can tell quickly and the phone conference can end quickly if it's a lookie-loo on the line.
Here's a few initial qualifying questions from seller to buyer:
- How many years you been boating?
- How many boats you owned and do you have one or more now?
- What brand and type boats have you had and what's your favorite?
- You know much about my brand/style boat?
- You figuring on paying cash or do you need bank financing?
Answers to those and similar questions make it pretty easy to tell the callers intent!
Happy Boat-Sale Daze!! - Art
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ranger58sb
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You've gotten a bit of push-back, but...
If I were the seller, I wouldn't mind answering all that as best I can. I'd probably say "give me a few days..." or some such. And many of the "by whom?" questions (maintenance, inspections, etc.) would be answered "by me." And maybe some of the other answers would be "see pics" or "see listing" (engine hours, genset hours, etc.).
Happens I'm maybe seeing the other side from many here because I'm just in the process of listing our current boat and shopping for our next boat, all at the same time. I needed some pre-offer engine/drive info on one of our "next boat" candidates from one broker, but he couldn't be bothered... so that boat isn't an option for us, period, end of report.
-Chris
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I would also ask them to provide a copy of a survey (with personal info redacted out of course) of a similar boat to the one I am looking to have surveyed. There are good surveyors out there, and not so good surveyors out there.
There are also what I call "Insurance surveys", where the boat is expected to a pass if it is floating,
"Buyer's surveys" where the buyer wants the surveyor to nit pick the boat so he can renegotiate the price, and what I'll call:
"REAL" surveys where the boat is accurately represented from a professional and totally unbiased point of view. The last is what every survey SHOULD be IMHO, but many are not.
I recently checked out a boat that had a 1 year old survey, very cursory, nothing found wrong, NO mention of any electrical wiring issues, etc, GREAT SURVEY! says the seller!
One look found Romex solid wiring to a household type water heater, wire nuts everywhere, non tinned wiring . . . the list goes on and on. I didn't even take the time to look over the rest of the boat. Owner was proud as pie with his boat which needed absolutely NOTHING! See? I even have a survey to prove it!
Note: If a surveyor isn't willing to provide a copy of a recent survey of a similar type boat, that is his/her choice. I will chose another surveyor. That is MY choice!
SoWhat, regarding disclosure, it is not required when selling a boat. Personally I, and it sounds like you as well, are up front with everything you know to be wrong with a house/boat. If any disclosed discrepancies are not acceptable to the buyer, than this is not the boat for him/her. I like to think that I could be friends with a buyer of my house or boat after the sale. Besides, I have to live with myself after the sale as well. Many people's approach is "Buyer beware" and figure that if the buyer doesn't find the stuff they are hiding, it's totally on them. They're cut from a different cloth from me, and from you from the sounds of it. Fair winds and following seas all!
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Seems to me (from my own personal experience) that for the most part Owners/Sellers who have taken an active interest in their boats, are mechanically knowledgeable, (but don't necessarily do their own work), and have maintained their boats well, don't have a problem answering questions.
. . . and then there are the rest of the sellers . . . .
. . . and then there are the rest of the sellers . . . .
firehoser75
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". . and then there are the rest of the sellers . . . ."
Hmmmmm
In my post above (53), I described meeting and dealing with 4 sellers on boats I was serious about and 2 of those were "rest of the sellers" (and that is not even talking about the many other sellers of boats we looked at that were surely in that category as well).
To each their own, and we can't change the world
Hmmmmm
In my post above (53), I described meeting and dealing with 4 sellers on boats I was serious about and 2 of those were "rest of the sellers" (and that is not even talking about the many other sellers of boats we looked at that were surely in that category as well).
To each their own, and we can't change the world
ranger58sb
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For what it's worth... I've had a re-look at the actual questions, and were it me buying a new (to me) boat much of that information (the detailed answers) would mostly be irrelevant except for two purposes. One would be to get an idea of whether the seller has had a clue about maintenance. The other would be in case I was expecting to try a long-distance delivery immediately after purchase.
Otherwise, a lot of that would be something I'd want to address myself while baselining systems once we own the boat. I would probably change oil; coolant; oil, fuel, and coolant filters; impellers; probably some hoses; anodes immediately. IOW, almost no matter what the answers were. I'd probably have aftercooler (if applicable) and heat exchanger service done immediately, too. Might consider replacing batteries, depending.
And so forth.
I don't mean to suggest not asking the questions in the first place... I just mean the actual details of the various answers are sometimes not particularly important to me.
-Chris
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