Need for Halon or Fire Bouy System on Diesels

[Drummer48]

I own a Cruisers Yacht 3850 and it has two Caterpillar diesel engines. My question for the group is do I need a Halon or Fire Bouy fire suppressant system onboard??

 

[Comodave]

IMO, yes. Fires aboard do happen, though the risk is somewhat less with diesels.

 

[rgano]

Need or should have? Yes, I think one should have an automatic fire suppression system aboard any vessel with an enclosed engine space. A fully functional system includes automatic engine and generator shut down and an override re-start capability. t down. I once installed a fire suppression bottle in my engine room but did not have the engine shut down. However, I did install a release alarm at both the steering stations to let me know I should immediately shut down. The reason you want to shut down is because the engines can quickly suck out enough of the fire suppression agent and fresh air in to make it ineffective. Sources of fires in boats are frequently something other than the engines and often while not underway; so an automated system is protecting you all the time.

 

[PM]

Halon is obsolete but there are good replacements

pete

 

[Drummer48]

Thank you

Thank you for the reply I think I will add that system to my boat.

 

[Bacchus]

Thank you for the reply I think I will add that system to my boat.

Read up on the control box and the systems that could / should be shut down.
In addition to the ones rgano mentioned shut fown of any blowers should be included. Mine also cuts the alternator field wire so there is no output from the alt.

 

[Group9]

I know that was one of the things they wanted to know about when I was getting insurance and talking to the rep on the phone. I have two fire suppression systems (Fireboy, whatever that is, Xintex? and the older CO2 system), but I wondered if I would have got insurance from them, without one.

 

[rgano]

Halon is obsolete but there are good replacements

pete

It has been a while since I read up on the problems with Halon, but apparently it works better than any replacement per given volume. The big issue was environmental rather than obsolescence per se. Newer replacement often have bigger bottles when directly replacing the Halon bottle. When I went to get my Halon bottle tested, the fire service pulled the Halon out, pressure tested the bottle, and replaced the Halon. Halon was still in the bottle in 2015 when I sold the boat. It is illegal to place Halon into a bottle it did not come out of. Fire service said to never get rid of the Halon unless forced to because it is the best fire suppression agent out there. I don't even know what agent I have in my present boat's bottle, probably something that is not Halon and will be illegal in about five more minutes.

 

[rslifkin]

Some of the non-Halon replacements are safer for spaces that might have a human in them, however. Different agents have different spreads between the concentration required to extinguish a fire and what will kill a human. If choosing a new system, I'd factor that in to the choice just in case the system ever dumps with a person in the engine room.

 

[Unclematt]

I just installed two fire boys with the automatic shut down in my boat. For me it was a must have safety item.

 

[Comodave]

It has been a while since I read up on the problems with Halon, but apparently it works better than any replacement per given volume. The big issue was environmental rather than obsolescence per se. Newer replacement often have bigger bottles when directly replacing the Halon bottle. When I went to get my Halon bottle tested, the fire service pulled the Halon out, pressure tested the bottle, and replaced the Halon. Halon was still in the bottle in 2015 when I sold the boat. It is illegal to place Halon into a bottle it did not come out of. Fire service said to never get rid of the Halon unless forced to because it is the best fire suppression agent out there. I don't even know what agent I have in my present boat's bottle, probably something that is not Halon and will be illegal in about five more minutes.

I don’t believe it is illegal to put halon in a bottle it didn’t come out of. It is illegal to manufacture more halon but recycled halon can and is being used to service existing halon bottles that need recharging. You can’t buy new halon systems but as said there are replacement chemicals that are being sold in new systems.

 

[Lepke]

If it works well, it's illegal. Just like bottom paint, wood preserver, and some paints & solvents.

 

[Matt]

I have been involved in a couple fires at sea, with diesel engines. IMO every engine room should have a fixed suppression system...

 

[Seevee]

If it works well, it's illegal. Just like bottom paint, wood preserver, and some paints & solvents.

And you can put asbestos there two. Irreplaceable as a top drawer insulator.


Gas is worse and it's still legal.

 

[Inbreaker]

If there is any doubt about the capacity of diesel to cause engine room fires, do a web search of HMAS Westralia.
And never mind diesel, I am personally aware of a case where a leak of transmission fluid burned a pick up truck down to the rims.
Engine room fire suppression system? No brainer.

 

[oscar]

Fire at sea is one of the worst scenarios to end up in. And if it happens, 5 miles off shore is "at sea". Every second can make a difference. I have my setup. Both engine rooms and generator room. All it takes is a leak in a fuel line and a hot manifold. The ignition temp of diesel is relatively low. Plus yes, the insurance liked it.

 

[FF]

"Engine room fire suppression system? No brainer."

The key word in this comment is SYSTEM.

Just sticking a bottle or two in the Engine space is not a system.

 

[jgtrucking]

It has been a while since I read up on the problems with Halon, but apparently it works better than any replacement per given volume. The big issue was environmental rather than obsolescence per se. Newer replacement often have bigger bottles when directly replacing the Halon bottle. When I went to get my Halon bottle tested, the fire service pulled the Halon out, pressure tested the bottle, and replaced the Halon. Halon was still in the bottle in 2015 when I sold the boat. It is illegal to place Halon into a bottle it did not come out of. Fire service said to never get rid of the Halon unless forced to because it is the best fire suppression agent out there. I don't even know what agent I have in my present boat's bottle, probably something that is not Halon and will be illegal in about five more minutes.

Yes i just had the same done last year, as long as you can get it serviced, id does the job!

 

[jgtrucking]

If it works well, it's illegal. Just like bottom paint, wood preserver, and some paints & solvents.

And refrigerants!

 

[rslifkin]

The newer extinguishing agents aren't as effective as Halon by weight. But as long as you use the right amount of the stuff, they do an equally good job in most situations. So unless weight and bottle size is a critical limitation, they make perfectly good replacements.

 

[epearn1]

Can you recommend the name of a company that can service a system that needs to be hydro tested but will put the halon back in?

 

[rgano]

Can you recommend the name of a company that can service a system that needs to be hydro tested but will put the halon back in?

In your area that should not be a problem to google up a few "fire service" companies which could do it, unless your state has Californicated the rules to prevent it.

 

[Steve DAntonio]

Read up on the control box and the systems that could / should be shut down.
In addition to the ones rgano mentioned shut fown of any blowers should be included. Mine also cuts the alternator field wire so there is no output from the alt.

Why is the field cut out necessary if the system shuts down the engine?

This article covers many of the details of selection and installation of a fixed fire extinguishing system https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/FixedFireEx125_03.pdf

 

[Bacchus]

Why is the field cut out necessary if the system shuts down the engine?

This article covers many of the details of selection and installation of a fixed fire extinguishing system https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/FixedFireEx125_03.pdf

Steve
I have no idea but found thats how Mainship wired mine. Actually they wired it through The wrong set of contacts and it opened the circuit when running normal vs closing it. Took alt off twice to have tested as I wasn't getting output.. Took me some time to trace everything out and discover how the alt was fed.

 

[psneeld]

I know that was one of the things they wanted to know about when I was getting insurance and talking to the rep on the phone. I have two fire suppression systems (Fireboy, whatever that is, Xintex? and the older CO2 system), but I wondered if I would have got insurance from them, without one.

My last insurance company asked me for a self survey. On it it asked about an engine room fire suppression system.

My boat did not have one and I explained the cost and difficulty in doing it right, and the results of auto shutdown at the wrong time.

The said OK, we understand and renewed my insurance without a premium change.

So the best I can answer is, not always, but I would be prepared to bear the cost of one at any time.

 

[Group9]

My last insurance company asked me for a self survey. On it it asked about an engine room fire suppression system.

My boat did not have one and I explained the cost and difficulty in doing it right, and the results of auto shutdown at the wrong time.

The said OK, we understand and renewed my insurance without a premium change.

So the best I can answer is, not always, but I would be prepared to bear the cost of one at any time.

I think a lot about about removing the CO2 system, because the five foot long tank for it, is secured on the port engine room hull, and makes getting to that side of that engine, less than fun. And, you would think the Fireboy would be adequate by itself, especially since we're all diesel.

 

[rgano]

This boat came to me with a soup to nuts fire suppression system complete with alarm and auto shutdown for engine and generator, but my trawler came with nada. While I did not install a complete system with auto shutdown on the trawler, I did feel much more comfortable after I placed a Halon bottle in the ER sized for the space with release alarms on both flying bridge and lower helm which would have allowed me the warning necessary to shut the engines and genny down.

 

[Taras]

Fire at sea is one of the worst scenarios to end up in. And if it happens, 5 miles off shore is "at sea". Every second can make a difference. I have my setup. Both engine rooms and generator room. All it takes is a leak in a fuel line and a hot manifold. The ignition temp of diesel is relatively low. Plus yes, the insurance liked it.

No offense, but when you say the ignition temp of diesel is relatively low and a diesel leak on a hot manifold can lead to fire, I have to disagree.
It's my understanding that diesel needs to be "compressed" to a very high PSI (i.e. inside cylinder) in order for it to "combust". A diesel leak on a motor shouldn't be a big deal. My thought is most fires in the engine room of a diesel boat are from an electrical source??

Other thoughts?

Obviously agree with robust fire suppression systems onboard

 

[psneeld]

https://www.passagemaker.com/lifestyle/fire-suppression-systems


Fire in the engine room is an experience most owners would rather not have. It is a frighteningly dangerous proposition, and one that can prove expensive in so many ways.


Fortunately, it is not a common problem aboard diesel-powered vessels. Indeed, it is so infrequent that there is very little information about engine-room fires, and separating fires aboard diesel-powered boats from the more common gasoline-powered inboard boats is all but impossible, even for the USCG's Office of Boating Safety.


While it is a rare occurrence, it does happen. According to Tom Hale, chairman of the Technical Board of the American Boat & Yacht Council (ABYC), there are perhaps 50 fires aboard inboard diesel boats each year. Given the thousands of pleasure boats on the waterways, this is a very small number.


The general consensus is that with better reporting data, we would likely determine that fires are not related nearly so much to propulsion machinery and fuel systems, as they may be to other causes for which preventative measures can be tak en. That list could include the electrical system, in the galley, and accidents.

 

[rslifkin]

No offense, but when you say the ignition temp of diesel is relatively low and a diesel leak on a hot manifold can lead to fire, I have to disagree.
It's my understanding that diesel needs to be "compressed" to a very high PSI (i.e. inside cylinder) in order for it to "combust". A diesel leak on a motor shouldn't be a big deal. My thought is most fires in the engine room of a diesel boat are from an electrical source??

Other thoughts?

Obviously agree with robust fire suppression systems onboard

Dripping diesel is unlikely to cause a fire unless it's landing on something very hot. Even then it'll probably make a bunch of smoke before there's much fire. But a cracked injector line or other source of spraying diesel under pressure can be a big problem very quickly if it hits something hot enough.