Outlets in Engine Room?

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Beware of olfactory fatigue:
"Olfactory fatigue, also known as odor fatigue, olfactory adaptation, and noseblindness, is the temporary, normal inability to distinguish a particular odor after a prolonged exposure to that airborne compound. ... Anosmia is the permanent loss of the sense of smell, and is different from olfactory fatigue."
You might smell the offending material, and then "fatigue' operates. It doesn`t mean the material has gone away. I don`t think "prolonged" has to be all that prolonged for it to develop.
 
Steve DAntonio said:
Plugging things into and out of it will make sparks, and there is no practical way to make that explosion proof. I
ABYC Standards do not prohibit outlets in gas ERs.
Click to expand...

ABYC requires electrical equipment in gasoline engine compartments to be identified as being ignition protected for that very reason.

11.5.2.2.8 "Ignition Protected," if applicable. This shall be identified by a marking such as "SAE
J1171 Marine," "UL Marine-Ignition Protected," or "Ignition Protected."

I've never seen an AC outlet so identified. If not identified as such it would not be permitted by ABYC and would be illegal in Canada. Do you know of any AC outlets identified as ignition protected ?
 
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Outlets in the ER

Unfortunately, the post doesn't mention anything about the boat where the intended outlet(s) would go.

In my mind, without that pertinent info, it is hard to say and erroring on the side of a conservative, safety position would be the best. Don't do it.

Smell or not, on a gas boat, I wouldn't run the risk.

Possibly using the blower(s) while using any electrical equipment in the ER would help mitigate a possible problem, but I'd be more inclined to use battery equipment in a gas ER than any electrical products.

Battery tools cover a broad range today so that NO electrical tools would be necessary to have in a gas ER, therefore no need for an outlet.

Just my 2cents, but if you see my boat in close proximity to your gas craft and plan on using electrical tools, let me know so I can be ready to move, smell or not.
 
Nepidae said:
Unfortunately, the post doesn't mention anything about the boat where the intended outlet(s) would go.

In my mind, without that pertinent info, it is hard to say and erroring on the side of a conservative, safety position would be the best. Don't do it.

Smell or not, on a gas boat, I wouldn't run the risk.

Possibly using the blower(s) while using any electrical equipment in the ER would help mitigate a possible problem, but I'd be more inclined to use battery equipment in a gas ER than any electrical products.

Battery tools cover a broad range today so that NO electrical tools would be necessary to have in a gas ER, therefore no need for an outlet.

Just my 2cents, but if you see my boat in close proximity to your gas craft and plan on using electrical tools, let me know so I can be ready to move, smell or not.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry but I couldn't resist. Battery tools are indeed electric.
 
Outlets in Engine Room

Yes, indeed they are, BUT, going with the topic Outlets, they do NOT require those.

I understand your driven desire to post that, I'd think the same thing, but I would have responded privately.

Enjoy.
 
If you want to check the regulations and plain language explanations read this https://www.uscgboating.org/regulations/assets/builders-handbook/ELECTRICAL.pdf

I am retired USCG Machinery Tech and afterwards worked in the marine repair industry. And I own a gas express cruiser.

I doubt you can find a location in a gasoline engine room that would allow installation of an outlet and meet isolation requirements. Without isolation it must be ignition protected. Ignition Protection applies to the “normal operation” of the device.

ANY work or repair operations are not going to be the “normal operation”.
Disconnect the batteries? Possible spark
Unplug any harness connection? Possible spark
Working on the ignition? Possible spark
Using a 12v test light? Yep spark
Any common AC or DC tool? Brushes spark

The correct practice is open all hatches and run blowers if possible, ventilate thoroughly before starting any work in a gasoline engine space.

On the flip side
Gasoline boat explosions are extremely rare.
In 12 years on small boats I saw three.
I saw significantly more marina fires. Many more foolish drownings and sinkings.
Be cautious but not fearful

Most fires are not fuel related but electrical
https://www.boatus.com/expert-advice/expert-advice-archive/2015/december/causes-of-boat-fires
 
I saw a gas powered boat blow up many years ago when I was about 12. There were a bunch of people on board. Killed 4, mangled 5 and the rest weren’t even hurt much. It was a powerful image and I always took gas explosions seriously. Did it stop me from owning gas powered boats, no I owned well over a dozen of them. I was just very very careful with them.

Even battery powered tools can spark and set off an explosion. You should be able to smell the gas, but should doesn’t always work. The advice to open up all the hatches and run the blowers is very good. Then try the smell test and if no smell proceed cautiously. There have been some cases where people used a shop vac to vacuum up water in the bilge and had an explosion, per Boat/US. So be very careful and no I would not put an AC outlet in the engine room of a gas powered boat. Now diesel that is a different animal, if I felt that an outlet would be convenient then yes I would put one in.
 
hughespat57 said:
If you want to check the regulations and plain language explanations read this https://www.uscgboating.org/regulations/assets/builders-handbook/ELECTRICAL.pdf

I am retired USCG Machinery Tech and afterwards worked in the marine repair industry. And I own a gas express cruiser.

I doubt you can find a location in a gasoline engine room that would allow installation of an outlet and meet isolation requirements. Without isolation it must be ignition protected. Ignition Protection applies to the “normal operation” of the device.

ANY work or repair operations are not going to be the “normal operation”.
Disconnect the batteries? Possible spark
Unplug any harness connection? Possible spark
Working on the ignition? Possible spark
Using a 12v test light? Yep spark
Any common AC or DC tool? Brushes spark

The correct practice is open all hatches and run blowers if possible, ventilate thoroughly before starting any work in a gasoline engine space.

On the flip side
Gasoline boat explosions are extremely rare.
In 12 years on small boats I saw three.
I saw significantly more marina fires. Many more foolish drownings and sinkings.
Be cautious but not fearful

Most fires are not fuel related but electrical
https://www.boatus.com/expert-advice/expert-advice-archive/2015/december/causes-of-boat-fires
Click to expand...


I am not quite sure what you are saying about outlets....


Are you saying that because there is no chance of spark in the simple installation of an outlet sitting unused.... it does not need to be ignition protected? And the comparisons for introducing a spark a 1000 ways during maintenance would be the same as plugging into an outlet after providing fume removal?

This note in the USCG link leads me to think it might be connected to your "normal operation" statement....

1. It is not the intention to require such devices to be “explosion proof” as that term is defined in the National Electrical Code of the National Fire Protection Association pertaining to shore systems, or within the meaning of 46 CFR 110.15-65.(e), Subchapter J, “Electrical Engineering”. It is intended that the protection provided be generally equivalent to that of wiring permitted by this standard wherein a definite short or break would be necessary to produce an open spark.


It would also follow Steve Ds comment that ABYC does NOT prohibit outlets in gas engine rooms. (post #29)
 
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First no I do not think you can safely or legally install a standard 120VAC outlet nor a 12VDC socket in a gas powered engine space.

The regulations do not “prohibit” any single device by name they spell out the testing and situations.
If you read the guide “isolation” is the separation from fuel sources by distance or bulkheads combined with open ventilation. Unlikely accomplished anywhere in an engine space.
Therefore the device the must be “ignition protected”

Are there plugs and sockets that would be? Yes there are industrial explosion proof receptacles with complex interlocks the prevent inserting or removing while energized.
Ridiculously expensive solution and then the tool also would need to be explosion proof. Ever see the size or cost of an explosion proof drop light?

Open and ventilate before any maintenance or repairs in a gas engine room.

My point was if you are working on a DC panel in the engine room yes all the breakers are ignition protected.
But changing out that breaker could cause a spark. That repair is NOT part of “normal operation” of a breaker

Please be careful..
 
US Code of Federal Regulations Title 33, sub-part 1, 183.410 requires each "electrical component" in a gasoline engine or fuel tank compartment to be ignition protected.

Does anyone know of an ignition protected AC outlet ?
 
DO NOT tell your insurance company you installed the outlet.
 
boatpoker said:
US Code of Federal Regulations Title 33, sub-part 1, 183.410 requires each "electrical component" in a gasoline engine or fuel tank compartment to be ignition protected.

Does anyone know of an ignition protected AC outlet ?
Click to expand...


The rub is ...is an outlet "intrinsically safe" and therefore exempted?


I read probably 2 hrs worth of all kinds of codes and articles on the subject and cannot find anything definitive....


It seems that those that may lean towards it being OK fall back on the "gray" concept of (as I posted before)... and which is true of all wiring running though most all gas boat bilge spaces.



"It is intended that the protection provided be generally equivalent to that of wiring permitted by this standard wherein a definite short or break would be necessary to produce an open spark."


It sure isnt clear as black and white to me from my limited research...will be interested in some "code" that is easily understandable or specifically prohibits any or normal outlets. Though I did see references to the use of special outlets in certain situations, but the sheer volume and lack of consistency makes me wonder.
 
boatpoker said:
Every time you wiggle a plug into it or out of it in "normal usage", sparks are created.
How on earth could that be considered "intrinsically safe" ?
Click to expand...


Sparks are not always generated if the equipment being plugged into isn't "ON"...otherwise all the advice on plugging into shore power that some give would be "fake news".


I just see the above in red as the "life is never absolute" clause.....



What involves common sense to be safe, usually also has a code prohibiting it...so I am keeping an open mind... but would love to see where a code make it clear as opposed to interpretation of what I have read as "a gray area" between people who have been dealing with it on all levels.
 
psneeld said:
Sparks are not always generated if the equipment being plugged into isn't "ON"...otherwise all the advice on plugging into shore power that some give would be "fake news".


I just see the above in red as the "life is never absolute" clause.....



What involves common sense to be safe, usually also has a code prohibiting it...so I am keeping an open mind... but would love to see where a code make it clear as opposed to interpretation of what I have read as "a gray area" between people who have been dealing with it on all levels.
Click to expand...

I think "ignition protected and marked as such" is pretty clear but thats just my interpretation. To each his own.
 
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I agree with psneeld, there is a big grey area here that can be interpreted either way. The reality is I have seen hundreds of gas boats with electrical outlets in the engine room. These boats have been surveyed hundreds of times and passed the survey. That in its self doesn’t prove the interpretation of the code but does go a long way to suggest the industry doesn’t find electrical outlets in gas engine rooms to be overly dangerous.
 
In my research, one boat picture was a new ogr near new Tiara express with Mercruisers and a factory installed outlet right above it.

Tiara claims to be NMMA certified using ABYC standards. • International certification options available. (European CE and others) .
 
When we plug into shore power, the pedestal breakers are off and the boat shore power breakers are off. No sparks at all. It is an empty 'pipe'. Turn the pedestal breakers on, got 'pressure' in the line. Turn the boat breakers on, current flows.
The point being, the only possible place for a spark is when plugging in or unplugging. If the outlet in the ER is 'dead', plugging in and unplugging cannot generate a spark. In theory, after the electrical equipment is plugged in and the outlet is energized, there should be no worries assuming the desired electrical equipment is vapor proof. Want something more to worry about? Watch the DC motor.... you may very well see sparks between the brushes and the armature.
 
boatpoker said:
ABYC requires electrical equipment in gasoline engine compartments to be identified as being ignition protected for that very reason.

11.5.2.2.8 "Ignition Protected," if applicable. This shall be identified by a marking such as "SAE
J1171 Marine," "UL Marine-Ignition Protected," or "Ignition Protected."
Click to expand...

ABYC also says

11.5.3.1 Potential electrical sources of ignition located in spaces containing gasoline powered
machinery, or gasoline fuel tank(s), or joint fitting(s), or other connection(s) between components of a gasoline system, shall be ignition protected

Potential is the operative word.
 
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boatpoker said:
ABYC requires electrical equipment in gasoline engine compartments to be identified as being ignition protected for that very reason.

11.5.2.2.8 "Ignition Protected," if applicable. This shall be identified by a marking such as "SAE
J1171 Marine," "UL Marine-Ignition Protected," or "Ignition Protected."

I've never seen an AC outlet so identified. If not identified as such it would not be permitted by ABYC and would be illegal in Canada. Do you know of any AC outlets identified as ignition protected ?
Click to expand...

I do not, but as I said, the spark would occur only of you did something, i.e. plug in or unplug, it could not occur passively as in a GFCI tripping. If you smelled gas fumes and then decided to plug in an appliance, that could be a problem. T
 
boatpoker said:
US Code of Federal Regulations Title 33, sub-part 1, 183.410 requires each "electrical component" in a gasoline engine or fuel tank compartment to be ignition protected.

Does anyone know of an ignition protected AC outlet ?
Click to expand...

I can't find any reference to "Ignition Protected" plugs and outlets, but industrial "Explosion Proof" devices are readily available, although quite expensive.

"Explosion Proof" is not the same as ignition protected. This more severe standard is defined in the National Electrical Code of the NFPA. Explosion proof equipment is also considered ignition protected.

One place this distinction is addressed in the USCG Boatbuilder's Handbook
SUBPART I
ELECTRICAL SYSTEMS
Title 33 CFR, Sections 183.401–183.460
183.410 Ignition Protection.

NOTES:
1. It is not the intention to require such devices to be “explosion proof” as that term is defined in the National Electrical Code of the National Fire Protection Association pertaining to shore systems, or within the meaning of 46 CFR 110.15-65.(e), Subchapter J, “Electrical Engineering”. It is intended
that the protection provided be generally equivalent to that of wiring permitted by this standard wherein a definite short or break would be necessary to produce an open spark.
2. Devices that are “explosion proof “ are considered to be “ignition protected” when installed with the appropriate fittings to maintain their “explosion proof’ integrity.

These devices are designed so that the socket is not energized until the matching plug is fully seated and locked in place thus preventing any arcing or sparks present in the surrounding atmosphere.

An example is this Larson Explosion Proof Outlet with On/Off Tumbler Switch - 20 Amp Rated:

153744.JPG


Or without the On/Off Tumbler Switch:

46940.JPG


They must be used with the matching Explosion Proof plugs, which can also be used in normal receptacles:

46938.JPG


There are certainly other manufacturers, Larson was just the first that came to mind.
 
Worked in chemical plants for 25 years. Anything that had the potential to produce sparks/flames required a hot work permit with a list of requirements and checks. Electrical devices (including cell phones and cameras) were considered as having lower risk but still required a ‘low energy’ permit which had less stringent requirements but still needed a check with a calibrated meter to detect flammable conditions. Noses were not approved. Odor detection capability is variable and sensitivity decreases with exposure.

After years of managing a variety of flammable liquids and gases, I personally would not have a gasoline engine in a confined space.
 
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tiltrider1 said:
I agree with psneeld, there is a big grey area here that can be interpreted either way. The reality is I have seen hundreds of gas boats with electrical outlets in the engine room. These boats have been surveyed hundreds of times and passed the survey. That in its self doesn’t prove the interpretation of the code but does go a long way to suggest the industry doesn’t find electrical outlets in gas engine rooms to be overly dangerous.
Click to expand...

Just because it may pass a survey doesn’t mean much. The surveyor on our current boat didn’t notice that we have 2 30 amp inlets and only 1 main 30 amp breaker. The other inlet was wired directly into the bus bar with no over current protection at all. How does a professional surveyor miss that?
 
boatpoker said:
Every time you wiggle a plug into it or out of it in "normal usage", sparks are created.
How on earth could that be considered "intrinsically safe" ?
Click to expand...
In Australia a power outlet has an on/off switch. If it`s "off" inserting/removing the plug should not create sparks.
 
BruceK said:
In Australia a power outlet has an on/off switch. If it`s "off" inserting/removing the plug should not create sparks.
Click to expand...

But is the on/off switch ignition protected? If not it can create a spark when turned on.
 
Comodave said:
But is the on/off switch ignition protected? If not it can create a spark when turned on.
Click to expand...
Doubt it, common practice is using a domestic/house GPO. Switch is enclosed which helps.
Years ago I acted for people literally "blown up" in a gas boat explosion. A baby died, my people had fractures of all 4 limbs plus unclean material blasted into tissue which stayed infected for years. My mind was scarred but they were scarred forever, physically and mentally.
 
Comodave said:
But is the on/off switch ignition protected? If not it can create a spark when turned on.
Click to expand...

If out of the engine room ( dangerous zone) it doesn't have to be.
 
But all the discussion is about inside the engine room. But obviously it the switch is remote from the outlet and the switch is outside the engine room then it doesn’t matter. But there still is the chance of the switch being left on and someone plugs into the outlet and creating a soark inside the engine room.
 
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Comodave said:
But all the discussion is about inside the engine room. But obviously it the switch is remote from the outlet and the switch is outside the engine room then it doesn’t matter. But there still is the chance of the switch being left on and someone plugs into the outlet and creating a soark inside the engine room.
Click to expand...

Just like the chance someone gasses up their boat through a rod holder....this place is incredible for assuming everyone is an idiot.

I am still waiting for some link to a code or authority that prohibits outlets in gas engine rooms in clear language.
 
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