Past subject: repower older trawlers

[Al]

Greetings- Attempted to locate a older thread that I had started some many months back. It regarded obtaining a older crusier in the 36-40 foot range that was powered with large gas engines.

(https://www.yachtworld.com/core/lis...et&access=Public&listing_id=988&url=&hosturl=)

Repowering it with two small new or used running take outs The purpose was to obtain a boat with quality accomadations found in older Chris Craft, Tolly Craft and the likes. Pull the large gas engines and replace with said smaller engines.
The assmption being that the fuel burn/cost to run these old rigs vs the value of a sale makes these boats some what a drag to sell.
Many of them are harbor queens sitting without use due to that situation.
The question of cost to convert these gas hogs to diesel fully aware that the cruise speed will be at max, hull speed if that. What the pay out is will be a very comfortabe accomadations with economy of small diesels.
To that thought and I recall a ton of contrary response, I submit this recent find regarding diesel engines in the reasonable price catagory. Yes, these too will raise questions as to parts, reputation, and so on. What say you on the concept specifically to these Chinese engines into a nicely outfitted older hull that passes a reasonable survey?

https://www.alibaba.com/product-det...?spm=a2700.details.deiletai6.8.691a10c2HWOqXJ

 

[ksanders]

Hmmm

I can tell you that a buddy of mine repowered a 48 Nordic that had gassers with new B series cummins diesels in the 380 HP range.

The total cost came out to be north of $100,000

 

[Insequent]

Going for those 50Hp diesels will be nowhere near the cost of the ones Kevin referred to, even allowing for labour. Having gearboxes included is a plus. You almost certainly will need new props, but total cost will still be very reasonable.

I think Al has a concept that is worth evaluating in detail. Being conservative I'd probably look for running takeouts or marinise something with local parts/support. That would increase cost, but it is likely still viable.

 

[FF]

There will be a big hassle getting any parts outside of China.

Perhaps purchasing 3 engines , 2 to install one as a parts source?

You might search Mahindra and other tractor sources to see if anyone is marinizing there engines.

Auto gas engines have improved in terms of robustness and fuel burn 15HP per gallon would give cheaper fuel to burn, and far lower maint or replacement costs than diesels.

As a interesting thought Ali Baba recently broke its own sales record, over $31 Billion in a single day!

 

[O C Diver]

I think labor is the big issue. For amusement I had considered a large Hatteras repower with Cummins remanufactured 6BT 220 HP engines. The 400 HP would only give displacement speed. At the time engines and transmissions would have been around $40k. The boatyard I use is very reasonable on labor, and a guess would have been $10K to $20K. Obviously, props, exhaust, and other items would have added to the cost.

The point is that at the time, the labor rate was $50 per hour. Since then its gone up a little, but I hear people paying between $100 and $200 an hour for labor. Depending on the labor rate, it seams the greater cost on lower HP engine installations will be the labor.

Ted

 

[rslifkin]

I figured out that assuming equal maintenance costs, it would take somewhere around 3000 hours of running to save enough fuel to pay for a nice pair of diesels in my boat. Probably something in the range of the 380hp Cummins Kevin mentioned (I'd be unwilling to give up the ability to run fast).

For the north of $100k it would cost (factoring in a new generator), I could run the boat until I wear out the current big blocks, build a nice, new set of gas engines aiming for durability and efficiency, put them in and run the boat a bunch more and I'd probably still be at worst breaking even.

 

[ksanders]

Repowering is not cheap, and many do not realize just how not cheap it really is when you are paying to have the job done right.

Any repower of non same engines most often means redoing your dash gauges, transmissions, props, exhaust, etc... The list is extensive.

I repowered my boat replacing Cummins 330’s with the exact same Cummins factory reman units.

My repower was right at $70,000 (I just looked at the bills). The price of the engines themselves was a bit over half that total. This was for the reman engines, and all the work to get them installed. The only real extra there is that I opted for new dash panels, and new gauges.

This was at a good full service boatyard in Washington with a trained team of technicians that had done this work many times before.

You can of course backyard mechanc, and save money. You could even save some money by going with a independent single worker mechanic. I opted for a authorized cummins dealer, with the stasff, tools, and experience to get the job done.

Total time was two months start to finish.

My buddy that spent over $100K... He hired a good independant mechanic. He was out of the water for over a year of frustration to get the job done.

 

[BlimpDriver]

Al, parts will not be an issue, your buying new engines. Buy the normal spares and go cruising. I respect the fellow who would consider up cycling an entire boat, fantastic idea. Keep me and or is abreast of any progress going forward. Personally I would much rather have an old hull with new engines than a new hull with no money. Godspeed Brother!

 

[Solly]

Nope ! At least with these engines.

Figure $4000 per engine + shipping (FOB) + any tariffs + no oversea service supplied. Then the cost to do a custom install. Probably close to $ 20,000. If not more.

Price 2 Crusader fuel injected engines. Reputation, reliability, service, parts availability.

Still, with the cost of buying the boat and engines and the install, probably make more sense to find an older diesel trawler and renovate.

If you want to gamble that kind of money go to Vegas. Foods better.

 

[Lepke]

Suppliers on Alibaba can give you shipping cost to a US port. I have read that China is paying the tariff to keep their manufacturing economy going. Many American diesel parts are made in China. Especially Cummins. I don't think Chinese quality is very different than US.
You'll have a right and left turning engine, today usually done in the transmission. But something you need to clear with the manufacturer. Everything will be different in the installation-motor mounts, shaft couplings, fuel tanks may need to be changed, etc.
Unless you can do most of the replacement yourself, I don't think it would pay, even with cheaper engines. And 50 hp may not give more than hull speed.

 

[psneeld]

As usual, it depends on so many details.....

I have explored the same, but 15 years ago and the project boats were in great shape and inexpensive.

Just decided I didn't have that kind of time on my hands.

Other than that it looked good on my paper....

It's of figuring to do if you attempt it.

 

[rsn48]

I just repowered my 1969 express cruiser with a new Merc 6.2 350 hp I/O and the bill was around $70,000 when it is all said and done. Expenses you forget to add in like removing and disposing the old engine. If a stern drive, fiberglassing in the old hole and cutting out a new one. Cleaning and fixing whatever needs fixing where the old engine was on the hull. New gauges, etc for the new engine. New hydraulic steering versus old cable steering. Not only new engine, but new leg. New electronics etc to read the Merc engine data. Not only installation of old engine but any modifications that need to be made. - for me, custom brackets to shore up wood that had to be trimmed in the hull and epoxied in. New custom exhaust pipes and mufflers. Old holes filled in used by the old engine. And a new bulkhead added to separate out the ER and the rest of the bilge area. And of course new battery and new automatic fire protection suppressant.

The good news for you is my $70,000 was Canadian dollars and the same job for you would be substantially cheaper than that. If you have the bucks, go for the new Merc engine, it isn't a maranized auto engine. Translation: in theory longer life and better torque.

 

[Ken E.]

Al, I removed Detroits and repowered with Cummins some years ago. A project like you're proposing will always cost more that you estimate and maybe a lot more. The only redemption is if the boat is a long-term hold and you run the hell out of it to take advantage of the new machinery. If resale value plays into the equation, and it may not, the Chinese engines may be a mood breaker, rightly or wrongly, because of unfamiliarity and perceived parts and service concerns. Bottom line for me is that in most cases it's better to buy the boat you want, powered as you want it and avoid the repower exercise. I like the Cummins, they are low time and they take me up and back to your neighborhood in SE AK reliably each year. But, but $100k (in my case) and a lot of work warrants a serious, objective look before doing it.

 

[ben2go]

Greetings- Attempted to locate a older thread that I had started some many months back. It regarded obtaining a older crusier in the 36-40 foot range that was powered with large gas engines.

(https://www.yachtworld.com/core/lis...et&access=Public&listing_id=988&url=&hosturl=)

Repowering it with two small new or used running take outs The purpose was to obtain a boat with quality accomadations found in older Chris Craft, Tolly Craft and the likes. Pull the large gas engines and replace with said smaller engines.
The assmption being that the fuel burn/cost to run these old rigs vs the value of a sale makes these boats some what a drag to sell.
Many of them are harbor queens sitting without use due to that situation.
The question of cost to convert these gas hogs to diesel fully aware that the cruise speed will be at max, hull speed if that. What the pay out is will be a very comfortabe accomadations with economy of small diesels.
To that thought and I recall a ton of contrary response, I submit this recent find regarding diesel engines in the reasonable price catagory. Yes, these too will raise questions as to parts, reputation, and so on. What say you on the concept specifically to these Chinese engines into a nicely outfitted older hull that passes a reasonable survey?

https://www.alibaba.com/product-det...?spm=a2700.details.deiletai6.8.691a10c2HWOqXJ

I looked at going with the chinese Cummins 4bt with the marine transmissions. The problems is getting them through customs because of their lacking any emissions data and usually no serial numbers. The chinese Cummis are Cummins engines just without all the cummins branding and serial numbers. Those come with 80hp to 150hp for around $7000 the last time I looked.


https://www.alibaba.com/product-det...pm=a2700.7724838.normalList.36.15367a44LDCh9L

 

[Nomad Willy]

Repowering is expensive.

But it dosn't need to be.

Lots of opportunities. Few can do a pepower by themselves but most of us can do some things or many things and if we hire help as-needed and only as needed many can probably do 3/4 of a repower.
And re the big ticket part ... the engine .. lots of suitable engines form various sources can be had for peanuts compared to Cummins and the like.
FF has mentioned many times how useable a certain International Harvester would probably be but I’ve never hear of anybody looking into it and discussing it on TF.

And w some layup work or woodwork one could reshape the stern of many sizable boats like CC and others. Most of these old cruisers are basically light boats and fairly narrow too so w a FD stern could easily be more efficient than a typical trawler. That w a pair of small and cheap sailboat take-outs ... Or just the sailboat engines. Opportunities .....
But most all take the route of a rebuilt Cummins or FL. Easy and if you’ve got the money fine. Wish I did. Most here can’t accept the maintenance of some trim painting much less a complete wood boat.
But for others there are alternatives.

PS The 50hp alibaba engine looks very much like an old Perkins.

 

[AusCan]

Repowering isn't rocket science. It just takes a basic mechanical aptitude, lots of planning and plenty of time.

I replaced my old Volvo with a new 42hp Vetus (Mitsibishi) for a total price of less than US$10,000. That included new engine, gearbox, instrument panel, wiring, prop, shaft flange & flex coupling, exhaust hose, engine mounts, slip costs and various consumables.

The only work I outsourced was a forklift operator to lift the old engine and drop the new one in place.

 

[DavidM]

Is there any market for a boat with an owner marinized International Harvester engine?


David

 

[ben2go]

My Cummins set up is going to be around $10,000 to 12,000 complete. I have a few contacts that can help me procuring the engine. I'm building the boat around the engine literally. It goes in before the hull is complete. Then I can install the systems as I go or after the hull is complete.



In Al's link, the engines appear to be straight inboards with BW/VD 71 or 72 transmissions. Those transmission can use a standard #3 bell housing/flywheel housing. As long as the gearing is close, props can be changed to compensate for the diesel engine. If indeed this is the case, there won't be much rework to repower the boat. Fuel system clean out, add fuel returns, better filters for diesel. The engine beds may need modification but not much. The exhaust can be changed from four to two. The raw water system may need to be modified but shouldn't need much. Electrical system can be greatly simplified with diesels. Two 4 or 6 cylinder Perkins or Lehman should fit right in there without any modifications. It will be tight on the hull and hatches but doable. There was a pair of Lehman 120hp for sale on ebay a while back for $6999 complete and running.

 

[rslifkin]

One concern about re-using the Velvet Drives with twins: Unless they're CR2s, the outputs will rotate the same as the inputs, so counter rotating engines are required to get counter rotating props. That issue alone would have my Velvet Drives on the chopping block in a re-power even if it were with new gassers.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Repowering isn't rocket science. It just takes a basic mechanical aptitude, lots of planning and plenty of time.

I replaced my old Volvo with a new 42hp Vetus (Mitsibishi) for a total price of less than US$10,000. That included new engine, gearbox, instrument panel, wiring, prop, shaft flange & flex coupling, exhaust hose, engine mounts, slip costs and various consumables.

The only work I outsourced was a forklift operator to lift the old engine and drop the new one in place.

I did basically the same w almost the same engine (different marineization) and less cost because I bought the engine from an industrial supplier. Klassen Engines.

 

[Al]

*Good solid comments all around. Some sound thinking and problem identification along with suggested solutions. This is the type of postings that make this forum a comfortable format where dreams are shared without fear of being laughed off. Some observations'
Eric, I agree, these engines appear to be Perkins knockoffs. I am of the the opinion that the size of the engines be they 58 hp or 85 hp, the cost of pulling big block gas can be meditated by taking them out piece meal, and the diesels small enough to almost man handle into place, can't be harder than building the pyramids
The concept of the project relates to smaller size trawlers not to exceed 38 feet. Speed was not a consideration. the goal was to have acquired maximum comfort and accomadations knowingly using moving speed close to hull speed/ Logically this would result in 6 to 7 knots. No "Top speed"
I would like to have this thread left with folks viewing various "Interesting boats" that fit the model followed by personal "What If", sort of a poor man's dream quietly living within. "Walter Mitty" if nothing else.

Thanks to all participating. Trawler on!!!

Al-Ketchikan

 

[Mako]

Al, definitely research how to get the mechanical engines from China, through our EPA and Customs checkpoints. Is it easier in Canada? Would you consider repowering down in Mexico? The difference in labor may be worth the long trip.

If you decide to go with China-sourced, then without hesitation go with the Weichai diesels or the CCEC or DCEC Cummins. Either would be fine, but the Weichai are cheaper. They will mate them to an Advance gearbox for you as well.

Parts for Weichai are available through their Chicago location - but give them a call first to see if they stock for the smaller WP2,3 or 4 diesels.

Edit - regarding to Mahindra, they don't sell their marinized engines in America but you could try to pick up a pair of tractor engines, but that seems like more trouble than it's worth.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Is there any market for a boat with an owner marinized International Harvester engine?


David

Had to think about that.
Good point that resale would not mean top dollar. But top dollar would not be invested either so the bottom line wouldn’t be different than a Cummins. Same cost in the end and the up-front money is more important.

I seemed to have skipped over your words “owner marinized “. Are there no manifolds available for the IH? If so I wouldn’t spend time (or worse) on them either.

And of course Al’s looking for a much smaller engine.

 

[ben2go]

I did basically the same w almost the same engine (different marineization) and less cost because I bought the engine from an industrial supplier. Klassen Engines.

That's what I am going to do with my Cummins.

 

[Bill Blatchford]

Reower older trawler

We just repowered our GB 42 Classic with John Deere 4045s. We removed the original John Deere 6 cylinder engines. This is a big job, removing the old engines, replacing everything from the instrument panels, controls, water intakes, engine beds, engine mounts, fuel filter system, transmissions, shafts, propellers, and exhaust system. Th job took several months and cost just north of $200,000. This was done at an established yard with seasoned personal.The same yard has maintained the boat for the last 10-12 years. WE also put access plates into the fuel tanks so the tanks could be properly cleaned. Everything runs great now. Peace of mind is worth a lot. Just be aware the job is bigger and more involved than anyone thinks.

 

[KenM]

My 1984 Mainship 34 MKIII was re powered in 1994 with a cummins 6bt 210 by a previous owner. I have the bills. He paid over $22k for the job then and that was about 25 years ago. I would think it might be double that today. On the other hand the cummins is still running fine today.

 

[Boatingbill]

I looked at going with the chinese Cummins 4bt with the marine transmissions. The problems is getting them through customs because of their lacking any emissions data and usually no serial numbers. The chinese Cummis are Cummins engines just without all the cummins branding and serial numbers. Those come with 80hp to 150hp for around $7000 the last time I looked.


https://www.alibaba.com/product-det...pm=a2700.7724838.normalList.36.15367a44LDCh9L

You can find those engines here in the us. They put them in a lot of things. I know of 2 with about 300hrs on them. They were power for hospital generators. Maintenance runs, and a couple emergency uses on each. I would put them in any displacement hull under 60,000

 

[gsholz]

We just repowered our GB 42 Classic with John Deere 4045s. We removed the original John Deere 6 cylinder engines. This is a big job, removing the old engines, replacing everything from the instrument panels, controls, water intakes, engine beds, engine mounts, fuel filter system, transmissions, shafts, propellers, and exhaust system. Th job took several months and cost just north of $200,000. This was done at an established yard with seasoned personal.The same yard has maintained the boat for the last 10-12 years. WE also put access plates into the fuel tanks so the tanks could be properly cleaned. Everything runs great now. Peace of mind is worth a lot. Just be aware the job is bigger and more involved than anyone thinks.

North of $200,000? Is that a typo? Seems a lot for repowering with twin 4045s.

 

[Boatingbill]

Had to think about that.
Good point that resale would not mean top dollar. But top dollar would not be invested either so the bottom line wouldn’t be different than a Cummins. Same cost in the end and the up-front money is more important.

I seemed to have skipped over your words “owner marinized “. Are there no manifolds available for the IH? If so I wouldn’t spend time (or worse) on them either.

And of course Al’s looking for a much smaller engine.

Run a couple cooling tubes down either side of your keel. Get out the saw, and start hacking fiberglass. Local truck stop for chrome smoke stacks, and your ready to go. No need for fancy exhaust manifolds. The ones that came on it will do just fine: lol!

 

[Bill Blatchford]

North of $200,000? Is that a typo? Seems a lot for repowering with twin 4045s.

It is not a typo. It is really a big job.