Perkins t6.354m NEED HELP! Greenhorn Captain

[CaptSoterio]

okay, so i bought a 1963 Royal Craft Commercial Crab Boat and its located 2 1/2 hours away from me so its a little hard to get work done right now. When I went to look at it before i bought it, the owner showed me how to start it and took me out in it to show me that is was able to run. NOW that was in July. I work on a boat in alaska and i was gone for 3 months and was not able to start and run the boat in that time frame. So I made some trips up to the boat, first time i went up i tried to turn over the Perkins and it clicked as if the batteries were dead, Stupid me didnt bring the batteries home instead the next trip up i took a battery charger that i thought was heavy duty enough...however, i broke the battery charger as soon as i went to turn it on and continued to try and use it however it started smoking while i tried to turn over the engine. So took the batteries with me that time, got them both charged 1 8D commercial battery and 1 regular marine battery. took them up today and of course i didnt get all the connections back on. I thought i did and spent about an hour or so tearing apart the ignition to figure out why i wasnt getting any power to the starter when i discovered one last negative cable that i didnt hook up. Okay, now i got everything connected and i go to crank. I crank a couple times, then stop and go to crank again however i see smoke start to rise from the starter so i stopped and looked to see another smaller ground wire melt before my eyes. it fell off and at that point the engine wouldnt crank again, as if there was no power to the ignition so i take it that wire that melted off needs to be there grounded.

So I dont know much about diesels. this is my first boat and im trying to get it able to go commercially crabbing in the not to distant future. I would very much apprieciate any info or help anyone can give as there is not much free help online for diesels especially the perkins engine.

*

thanks!

 

[CaptSoterio]

to add to this, after the wire melted i went to replace it however i didnt have the right size wrench ouch!!

 

[Tom.B]

Not sure I understand the question, but it sounds like the starter is toast. It happens. Those things aren't designed for long periods of time with that much load on them. Is there an engine preheat button you missed that caused it not to start right away? Is it spinning up strong?

 

[CaptSoterio]

my question is, the wire that melted away, why would it melt away and will it be possible to crank the engine after it is replaced. when i finally was able to get the power to the engine to crank over i only got a couple turns out of it if that

Before, the owner showed me that all i had to do to start her up was flick the battery switch and turn it over. I turn the key to Acc and wait a minute first however its not wired up to any kind of heater so it wouldnt make a difference.

I read someones post on here and this was my plan to get it going next time im up there..

Replace the wire that melted away then,

Go to crank again but crank for 20 seconds and let it rest for 60 seconds and repeat two more times to get it to crank. it was also freezing outside.

anyways the engine was running great when i bought the darn thing, now since ive paid it off ive wanted to move it closer to me and cant even get the thing to start.

 

[jleonard]

I ran a circa 1978 T6.354 for many years in my old Mainship and it always started in about 3 seconds or so unless the battery was low. As long as the starter spun fast I never had a problem. The engine did not have any cold start aids. There were several times when I started it when temps were in the 40s F and still no problems.

Make sure the battery is good...maybe I should say very good.

*

 

[CaptSoterio]

So i should replace the ground wire that melted off. Im pretty sure i reconnected the batteries correctly. I should try and start the engine again?? and if no crank then the starter is gone? How can i check the starter?

 

[CaptSoterio]

alright I will go through and double check things again. It's been very difficult for me to get things done i have to drive so long to get to my boat and ive built up so much excitement for it and then i start making mistakes.

 

[RickB]

CaptSoterio wrote:alright I will go through and double check things again.

Unless you have a good schematic and know how to read it you will be much better off hiring someone to take a look at the starting system.

It really does sound like you are about one more attempt short of a fire.

 

[jleonard]

I have a Perkins wiring drawing from 1972 and revised in 1976. Let's see if it uploads.

By golly it did. Hope this helps. Bring a nice new charged up group 31 battery with you to make sure she spins fast.

*


-- Edited by jleonard on Monday 21st of November 2011 03:24:24 PM

 

[CaptSoterio]

I just talked with my mechanic about it and he is going to come up with me the next time i head up. I feel like Tim Allen from Home Improvement when everything blows up when he touches it.

Thanks everyone.. Thanks Jleonard for the wire diagram, im going to be printing that out to use. Hopefully I can get my rig running and start the other problems i have with it so i can get it fishing.

 

[Marin]

CaptSoterio wrote:
*it was also freezing outside.

If you don't have any heat on your boat this could well be the reason the engine didn't fire.* Trying to start a diesel, particuarly an older generation diesel can be dicey if it's really cold.

You may well have a starter issue, too, and as Rick said this is not somehting you should screw around with yourself if you don't have the knowledge, experience, and tools to do the job.* Hire a competent marine elecgrician or engine guy or both and let them figure out the problem.* Otherwise your commercial crabber could become a nice habitat for fish.

But while the pros are sorting out whatever's making your starter smoke and wiring melt, you also need to find out some more info than what the previous owner gave you.* Does the engine have a cold start control?* I don't mean pre-heaters but a lever or some mechanical means of letting the injection pump feed more fuel to the injectors when it's very cold out.* This is an owner's manual sort of thing, and if you don't have one you should get one.* They're usually available on the web somewhere in PDF form.

Second, it might behoove you to keep some heat in the engine room.* Not a campfire, however.* We keep an electric oil heater in the engine room during the winter, one of those heaters you can get at hardware stores that looks like a small steam radiator.* We leave ours on the lowest setting with the thermostat about halfway up.* This keeps the engine space about 50-55 degrees so even on the coldest Fraser River winter blast day in*Bellingham the Lehmans start right now with no hesitation at all.

*

*

 

[CaptSoterio]

ok so i found a manual online and it had some helpful info.. although i looked through the pictures of the bateries that i do have and they confirmed that i DID in fact connect the batteries correctly. The wire that melted... still doesnt make too much sense besides the fact that the wire is old. I think i've discovered a fuel primer but i dont think the problem was that the engine couldnt start, i think the main issue was the voltage going to the electrical starting system wasnt sufficient.

I will take the advice of having someone who knows what they are doing go up and take care of it for me..

all the help is apprieciated. seeing has i am very green.

 

[FF]

How is the engine SHUT DOWN?

Are you sure the stop cable is not pulled?

Or the stop solenoid energised?

Some private boats copy the USCG commercial requirement and have a fuel line cut off , sometimes outside the boat.


-- Edited by FF on Tuesday 22nd of November 2011 05:33:20 AM

 

[Edelweiss]

CaptSoterio wrote:
I just talked with my mechanic about it and he is going to come up with me the next time i head up. I feel like Tim Allen from Home Improvement when everything blows up when he touches it.

*

Having a mechanic check it out*is a wise choice,*if you are not familiar with the system. *I suspect you are right about the low voltage problem.*

The older 6.354 used a beafy Delco starter but the solenoid mounted on top was wimpy.* The voltage drop between* the dash key/switch and the solenoid is significant and caused the contacts in the solenoid to chatter and burn up.* I rebuilt mine several times before I discovered the cause and added a second relay at the solenoid.

These engines have a compression ratio of 17:1 and any loss of compression through wear makes them hard to start in cold weather.* Perkins*markets a hot start cold weather starting device that is very inexpensive, installed through a drilled and tapped hole in the intake manifold your engine will start first time everytime, even in cold weather.

Good luck

Larry B


-- Edited by Edelweiss on Tuesday 22nd of November 2011 08:42:33 AM

 

[JAT]

One other think to consider....if it has not been mentioned before..... I have 2 6.354's in my boat. One of them cranks very quickly and the other takes its time. Both engines are 1977.

I found why the one slow starts.... It seems to have a phantom leak somewhere in the fuel system...no exterior leakage...but it seems there is an air leak that allows the engine to lose its prime...just enough to create a delay in starting.... The answer was to pump the priming pump on the engine a few times. I haven't gotten into yet, but I have a feeling its going to be an interesting search to find it...

 

[JAT]

superdiver wrote:
The pump is easy to spot and easy to get to in my boat, its mounted on the side of the engine and has a little handle to pump ....

*

*

That's the one!!

 

[CaptSoterio]

I was never told about the primer pump and found it on mine from looking at pictures that i took of my engine and looking at engine diagrams online. it looks like my engine does not have a cold start aid only the primer pump. It also states to put my throttle all the way open when starting it in the cold.

 

[JAT]

CaptSoterio wrote:
I was never told about the primer pump and found it on mine from looking at pictures that i took of my engine and looking at engine diagrams online. it looks like my engine does not have a cold start aid only the primer pump. It also states to put my throttle all the way open when starting it in the cold.

*

When using WOT when you start the engine....have one hand on the throttle ready to pull it back fast!! *A stone cold diesel doesn't like high rev's ......ouch!

 

[CaptSoterio]

update, im back from my fishing contract in alaska and still havent gotten the engine to start but it has turned over. I replaced the wire and believe that i was sending too much power to it. Ive got it to crank 3 full cranks however its still very cold out and this whole week has nothing but bad weather for us. Next step is to take some space heaters to heat up my engine room and fuel tank. Right now im learning how to bleed the fuel system I might as well do that too but i havent disconnected any fuel lines so i technically shouldnt have to.

I would like to buy an aftermarket cold start to add to the engine but im not having good luck finding one for a decent price if you know where i can get one that would be helpful. also any feedback on using space heaters to heat the engine room? I was curious if anyone knew what temperature the engine would start best at?

 

[Edelweiss]

I bought mine from North Harbor diesel in Anacortes. I would think they would be available from any Perkins dealer though. They were less than 20.00 dollars last time I bought one. Probably a little more now.
Larry B

 

[Island Cessna]

Check all the ground wire connections. It sounds like the main (Heavy wire) ground between the battery and engine may have a bad conection, making the lighter ground wire take all the load. That would reduce cranking speed and cause the smaller ground strap to heat up.

Sometimes the crimped connection where the lug attaches to the cable corrodes, especially if the cable or lug are not tinned marine parts. The heat shrink sleeve makes the problem invisible. A jumper cable from battery ground to a solid ground on the engine will bypass the problem, if that works, check the cables extra closely.

Bill

 

[Forkliftt]

Ditto!

 

[CaptSoterio]

that sounds like it could be a very good possiblity ill have to check that. I just got North Harbor's phone number the other day ill give them a call thanks for the help Im going back up sometime this week and ill give another update.

 

[Forkliftt]

Good plan Soterio. Just remember. Before you need to worry about bleeding anything or preheating you need to have the engine spinning over well. Warming the engine room could make a big difference on this.

 

[FF]

"I replaced the wire and believe that i was sending too much power to it"

Not possible , the engine was designed to start with a BIG bunch of cranking amps , probably the wire was simply undersized or corroded.

The best engine start device is a block heater installed inside the block in the cooling water.

These are usually $75+ or so and will require 1350-1500W to operate and overnight is not too long to get the engine ready.

Fuel will wax if it is summer blend , your local truck stop will have the proper product to allow summer fuel to flow in freezing temps.

Pour it into the fuel tank.

 

[Edelweiss]

CaptSoterio wrote:
okay, so i bought a 1963 Royal Craft Commercial Crab Boat and its located 2 1/2 hours away from me so its a little hard to get work done right now. When I went to look at it before i bought it, the owner showed me how to start it and took me out in it to show me that is was able to run. NOW that was in July. I work on a boat in alaska and i was gone for 3 months and was not able to start and run the boat in that time frame. So I made some trips up to the boat, first time i went up i tried to turn over the Perkins and it clicked as if the batteries were dead, Stupid me didnt bring the batteries home instead the next trip up i took a battery charger that i thought was heavy duty enough...however, i broke the battery charger as soon as i went to turn it on and continued to try and use it however it started smoking while i tried to turn over the engine. So took the batteries with me that time, got them both charged 1 8D commercial battery and 1 regular marine battery. took them up today and of course i didnt get all the connections back on. I thought i did and spent about an hour or so tearing apart the ignition to figure out why i wasnt getting any power to the starter when i discovered one last negative cable that i didnt hook up. Okay, now i got everything connected and i go to crank. I crank a couple times, then stop and go to crank again however i see smoke start to rise from the starter so i stopped and looked to see another smaller ground wire melt before my eyes. it fell off and at that point the engine wouldnt crank again, as if there was no power to the ignition so i take it that wire that melted off needs to be there grounded.

So I dont know much about diesels. this is my first boat and im trying to get it able to go commercially crabbing in the not to distant future. I would very much apprieciate any info or help anyone can give as there is not much free help online for diesels especially the perkins engine.

*

thanks!

So if I'm reading this right, you are located in Bremerton, Wa and the boat is 2.5 hours away, but somewhere in Washington State right or is it in Alaska?* If it's in Washington you don't have to worry about cold temps or gelling fuel as the day time temp has been in the 45 - 60 degree range for the last month.

You first of all need to solve your battery to starter problems.* The hot start*designed for the 6.354 requires a little bit of machining (drilling*a hole in the intake manifold),*plumbing a three*foot length of brakeline between the hot start and the engine fuel filter to supply fuel and a*14 ga wire between the hot start and a momentary switch on the dash that's connected to 12 volt B+*.** If you buy the kit it comes with install. instructions.**It's really that simple.

Larry B

 

[CaptSoterio]

the boat is a little further north of bellingham. Temps have been warming up but its still been chilly up there. So far nothing new. Friday im heading up with my mechanic to get things done right. i recently just got some diesel 911 from walmart which states to pour it into the fuel pump filter to help de ice it. and it also says to pour it into the fuel take to fix the gelling. Im bringing a heat gun and space heater with me to heat the engine and engine room along with an IR thermometer to keep track of engine temp. havent called north harbor diesel yet but i talked to a local place here in bremerton and i also called perkins and they gave me another number to call to ask.

If i get the engine running and it warms up safely. Im bringing it 14 hours to bremerton from its current location. anyone think of anything i should be worried about to check into? my mechanic is planning to take the trip with me in case something goes wrong.

 

[Island Cessna]

You don't need to worry about Diesel gelling in Bellingham or Blaine! A tired 1960's vintage Diesel engine without glow plugs or other starting aids does start up reluctantly when it's cooler though. Your space heater should be a help. Good batteries, cables and connections to get the juice to the starter will be a must. Cranking speed and duration create the heat to get ignition! Good luck.

Bill

 

[FF]

i recently just got some diesel 911 from walmart which states to pour it into the fuel pump filter to help de ice it. and it also says to pour it into the fuel take to fix the gelling.

I would worry 10X as much about screwing up the fuel filter , an air leak, rather than gelled fuel at over 45F.

Are you down in the low 30's or below?

 

[CaptSoterio]

ok heres the update: went up with my mechanic yesterday and we ended up pulling the starter and the solenoid. Which after i tried to crank the engine, and he heard the click sound and partial engine turns. we let the engine room heat up with the heater however im a little worried about leaving the space heater there overnight so it only had an hour to heat the engine room and it did but the engine block was still in the mid 40s i purchased a IR thermometer to make sure i could get accurate engine temps and put it to good use. Still no full engine turns. ADDED Diesel 911 to fuel tank only. we didnt have our instructions to bleed the fuel system correctly so we didnt touch the fuel filter. like some have said, the temperatures might not be the issue so much anymore. SO right now, we got back home late but we have the starter and we are going to test it today or tomorrow along with the solenoid. hopefully a replace wont be too costly. Sounds like starters like to go out on boats sometimes? i hope it will get my engine running. hard to think what other issues it could be.