Recreational Boating & the Green Movement

[rslifkin]

Look at your boat. Typical sail has four to eight dorades, 3 or 4 overhead hatches and 8 to 12 opening ports lights. Now that non opening in hull port lights are the trend ventilation in new sail is going the wrong way. Trawlers are all over the place. Some with excellent ventilation but many truly need their AC to be habitable. Especially for berthing areas. Think many people don’t think about ventilation when they buy a boat but do after living on it for awhile. AC use in a boat should be minimal. Mold/mildew a non issue.

I see the declining ventilation problem a lot in newer boats in general. It seems the "modern", "sleek" shapes just don't lend themselves well to good ventilation.



My only ventilation gripe with my boat is that the aft cabin could be a little better ventilated. But within the design constraint of a trunk cabin, there's not a lot of room for improvement. It's got decent side windows, but because they're right at deck level, it takes a decent breeze to get enough air flow back there. The forward cabin and salon vent very well though. 2 opening ports in the hull sides and a big hatch in the foredeck up forward and 4 large opening side windows in the salon (which are up higher than the aft ones and catch much more air). Plus there's the side door and companionway hatch in the salon as well.

 

[skyhawk]

At night.
During the day solar meets 100% + of usage.

I'm no solar expert and I could be wrong...but my guess is that if you were to take the batteries out of the loop that would fall apart.

I know in my RV, my controller has to have the battery connected otherwise supposedly bad things will happen. I only have a single 100W panel so I don't haven nearly the capacity that you do, but I can see an impact when it's partially shaded, clouds, etc....

 

[Hippocampus]

Agree. Newer isn’t necessarily better. Form should follow function. Was on an Italian mega yacht through a invitation from a promariner friend. Needed the air handlers on 24/7 regardless of the weather outside. Totally artificial environment.

 

[OldDan1943]

Agree. Newer isn’t necessarily better. Form should follow function. Was on an Italian mega yacht through a invitation from a promariner friend. Needed the air handlers on 24/7 regardless of the weather outside. Totally artificial environment.

I keep my A/C running 24/7 but, to reduce the compressor run time, I use 12vt compartment fans to stir up the air in the compartment.

 

[AZ2Loop]

Scott C -- thank you for sharing some real world experience here. I applaud you for taking the step into new boating technology. I'm going to cut up some of your quotes below and hope you do not mind. I think it will help put into perspective of just how far away we are today from making this practical. Thanks to those willing to venture forward (like you), we'll get there over the decades. We are not there yet.

...I can arrive at a marina with an empty 48v 240AH propulsion battery (empty = 44volts), plug in and expect it to be fully charged (54.4v) within about 8 hours...

Great perspective there. 8 hours to "re-charge". Think about that. So, I have been cruising on a 30-year old boat now for some 5,000 miles over the past 18 months or so. It is not particularly fuel efficient -- just an old trawler. I have not spent 8 hours fueling (re-charging) my boat using diesel fuel in all of those months and miles. In 30 minutes I can replace 200 gallons easily, so in 8 hours that is 3200 gallons of diesel fuel. It would literally take me years to burn that much fuel cruising like we do, and my old technology trawler could easily go 1/3 around the world on that amount of fuel. Looking at it from a time perspective, and distance traveled, I find that interesting.



In other words, what the current technology in electric powered trawler requires each day just to get to the next cruising destination tomorrow, is the equivalent in time most of us would spend fueling (charging) over several years, and going more than 10,000 miles on our "old" boats. I realize he is sleeping vs fueling, but it is still 8 hours time. 1 day vs several years. 50 miles vs 10,000 miles. Fascinating. We are NOT there yet!

As much as I like electric/hybrid boating & vehicles, I don't buy the "green" argument for it quite yet.
As I understand it, the batteries required are seriously damaging to the environment -- both to produce and dispose of. .......

That is my understanding as well. In fact there was a very interesting study done a few years ago on this topic that actually showed how over a several year period a Hummer (forget which model -- but they picked one of the huge beasts to make their point) was far more environmentally friendly over the years and miles than a Prius. It was not well received by the left A lot of the focus was indeed on the environmental damage done to mine/manufacture the battery system, and then dispose of it several years later, vs the horrible gas-guzzling of the Hummer over the same decade or so of use. It was not even close as to which was more environmentally friendly. The Hummer won out.

 

[OldDan1943]

There is/was a recycling program for the FLA batteries.
I have no idea if there is a recycling program for the higher tech batteries.

 

[AZ2Loop]

Codger, thank you as well for the real world experience. To keep it short and make my point, I'm going to cut your quote up as well. I hope you don't mind.

...Although I cannot add to Scott's performance on his boat, I can give you real world numbers on 22 foot Duffys....... Without recharging, the boat does this 3 more times for a total of 360 minutes before it is attached to the charging station for the night..... 33 miles on one charge which will be completed over night. Depending on the number of passengers, the boat weighs in at 4500-5000lbs.

Again, 6 hours of cruising, or 33 miles, then charge for 8 hours.

Compare that to 8 hours of "charging"/fueling in our 30-year old diesels. That amount of time gets me several years of cruising (vs 1 day) and well over 10,000 miles (vs 33 miles) on a boat that weighs 10 X the 22 foot Duffy.

We'll get there with the electric technology, but we are certainly not there yet from a practicality stand point.

 

[AZ2Loop]

ksanders, thank you for your posts on this topic. You have hit on so many points that are so often overlooked (actually ignored) when these discussions come up. We'll get there with more and more clean power, but we must also move forward without losing sight of reality, and without punishing current/proven technologies at our disposal. Because something sounds good, that alone does not make it so, no matter how many times it is repeated.

 

[AZ2Loop]

Agree. Newer isn’t necessarily better. Form should follow function. Was on an Italian mega yacht through a invitation from a promariner friend. Needed the air handlers on 24/7 regardless of the weather outside. Totally artificial environment.

Hippocampus, this is seen on a smaller scale in every marina. As I walk the marina we are in today, I see it. Older boats with their hatches and windows open according to the weather, burning no electricity to speak of. VS newer boats that look great but have no opening windows or opportunities for cross breeze, sitting their with their AC's running 24/7, despite the near perfect temps nature is providing. It's the same when on the move. Generators running, windows closed, vs the old trawlers with their windows open, keeping that same perfect temperature with no fuel burn. I don't actually have a problem with it either way. We have plenty of fuel and I'm not exactly a tree hugger. To each their own. It is just an observation.

 

[skyhawk]

AZ2Loop
valid points.
True enough that if your goal is to spend 10-15 minutes at the fuel dock and then continue on your voyage
but I'll bet that ScottC's scenario would be more like the few minutes at the fuel dock.... then moving to a slip where they will stay for much longer than 8 hours...sleeping, etc....
which is not so unlike what most folks would do in a traditional sense....so the result would be the same.

I drive a battery EV (Audi E-tron) and while on a road trip it might take me 20 minutes to recharge, my gas car might take 5 minutes to refuel..... but then I'd go for a pee, maybe get something to eat, etc.... all of which I'll do WHILE the EV is recharging. The net result is about the same....both get back on the road roughly the same time.
In full honestly, the reality on a road trip is that it's not equal....I have to stop a lot more frequently to recharge than I would for fuel....but then again I'd stop to pee sometimes without taking fuel in the gasser....anyway, the net result is a bit longer in the EV, but it's not much different.

And on the environmental thing....I DO NOT drive the EV because I'm in any way thinking it's "better for the planet". I'm probably polar opposite in most ways from the typical "prius driver"! For me it's the gadget...it's fast, smooth, quiet......and I do 99% of my recharging at home and I love that....start every day with a full tank!

 

[BandB]

There is/was a recycling program for the FLA batteries.
I have no idea if there is a recycling program for the higher tech batteries.

Batteries are one of the most recycled of all products with nearly 100% reuse of all components.

 

[Benthic2]

... Again, 6 hours of cruising, or 33 miles, then charge for 8 hours. Compare that to 8 hours of "charging"/fueling in our 30-year old diesels....

I don't think this is a valid comparison. Your time to refuel might be 10-15 minutes but for the recharge its not 8 hours of his time....its more like 2 minutes. 1 minute to uncoil the cord and plug in.....1 to unplug and recoil the cord.

This thread has been an interesting read. An important point to remember is that not everyone's boating habits are the same. It is accepted that there is not one type of boat that is good for all boaters, so it should be equally acceptable that there is not one propulsion system for all boaters. Electric power at it currently exists might be perfect for the pontoon boat on a lake that does a sunset cruise each night, or goes to a fishing spot...sits there for a few hours and goes back to the dock. As battery power finds its way into the industry, it will have advancements, improvements and refinements.

Consider the genesis of internal cumbustion powered boats. Shoveling coal was dirty and hard work, storing coal for a long voyage took up cargo space etc. The first boat engines were not the refined engines we have today. The transition was a slow process, and not for everyone. A large segment of the boating population still prefers sail power.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is that just because battery power may not be for you, doesn't mean its a bad idea for everyone.

 

[AZ2Loop]

benthic2 and skyhawak, that is why I said "I realize he is sleeping vs fueling, but it is still 8 hours of time". The point isn't man hours. My point was the time required to replace the energy. It shows the inefficiency in the technology at the moment. It will change. I'm all for it. We just aren't there yet.

 

[OldDan1943]

Why not a hybid boat. Electric drive, batteries, solar panels and a reasonable small diesel generator to recharge the batteries when and if necessary?

 

[OldDan1943]

Batteries are one of the most recycled of all products with nearly 100% reuse of all components.

I think EPA, OSHA and maybe a few other agencies have all but shut that down in the US.

Years ago, I needed some lead sheeting, there was only one place listed on the web selling lead, way out west. Well, I needed it so I paid for shipping it. LOL

I'm not sure they are still in business.

 

[AZ2Loop]

.....I DO NOT drive the EV because I'm in any way thinking it's "better for the planet". I'm probably polar opposite in most ways from the typical "prius driver"! For me it's the gadget...it's fast, smooth, quiet......and I do 99% of my recharging at home and I love that....start every day with a full tank!

I could not have said that any better. IMO you have the EV situation figured out as far as the benefits now stand.



I have not gone full EV yet. I have owned 2 Toyota Camry hybrids and loved them. Although that is different than full EV, I enjoyed them. I admire electric vehicles and look forward to owning them down the road. Like you, I do not believe the current technology is environmentally friendly, though. That would not stop me from buying one today if they fit my needs otherwise.

 

[skyhawk]

benthic2 and skyhawak, that is why I said "I realize he is sleeping vs fueling, but it is still 8 hours of time". The point isn't man hours. My point was the time required to replace the energy. It shows the inefficiency in the technology at the moment. It will change. I'm all for it. We just aren't there yet.

fair point!

 

[KnotYet]

California imports approx 25% of electricity, 85% of natural gas
Natural gas is used to supply about 50% of their electricity.

BC is a major supplier of both hydro and gas to California.

Please explain to me how California plans to become all electric when it does not have the means to be self sufficient with electricity.
When outside supply is reduced because the supplying states and Canada start needing more of their own production.

California dreamer.

You seem to be aware of a few of the facts. I am happy to supply some more:
In theory any state, including CA, could become energy self-sufficient, but there is no
plan or need to do so. As I understand it, the goal is 'zero carbon' by 2045.

25 years is a long time and at the current rate of renewable energy growth that is an
attainable goal for the generation side, if not sooner with technology improvements.

25 years is a lot of time to improve both transmission and storage capacity also.
This also holds true for the adjoining states and Provinces that will be our future
customers of the ever increasing generation capacity unless they upgrade theirs, too.

It seems to be the norm for a certain group to make assumptions about future
events based on years-old data remaining the status quo.
What I do instead is apply the most recent changes as predictive to future changes,
keeping in mind that people tend to act in their own best interest in the long run.

Finally, you and others use 'California dreamer' as a derisive term. But it isn't to me.
On the contrary, no progress occurs without first having been a dream in the mind of
an innovator. California is and will remain the economic powerhouse of the hemisphere.

 

[Portage_Bay]

Why not a hybid boat. Electric drive, batteries, solar panels and a reasonable small diesel generator to recharge the batteries when and if necessary?

That will work if your daily run is easily handled by battery power. On the other hand if your daily run is much longer than battery power will last then you are really running on your diesel generator. In that case the gen will have to be big enough to both re-charge the batteries AND run the boat. Somewhere in between almost all on battery or almost all on diesel you could make it work if you are willing to work within the limitations. In Post #44 I gave a decent lay person's explanation of why. ScottC and Codger2 have also addressed how hybrid works on boats.

 

[skyhawk]

way back before I was even moderately interested in EV, I used to think that hybrids made perhaps the most sense....especially if you could get enough range to do most of your daily driving on electric.

Eventually I came to realize that hybrid sits almost squarely as a jack of all trades master of none. You still have the gasoline engine and all it's maintenance, etc... so not really a huge win....perhaps even a net loss.

Now for boating, it strikes me that perhaps just maybe hybrid makes some sense on a SV....using hydro generation to recharge while underway....

 

[AusCan]

Yes - it is ok to be a dreamer. Innovation would be stagnate without it.

Here in the state of South Australia, we are now producing over 60% of electricity by wind and solar. This has been increasing by about 7% per year. 5 years ago the general consensus was that 40% was the maximum possible, and 60% needed to be gas/coal/nuclear for a stable load base. The dreamers pushed on.

We installed the world's largest battery (although California has now installed a larger one) and tweaked the control systems to continue to push the boundaries. Our last coal fired power station is now shut down. The natural gas fired power stations are reducing output, and all new power systems will be solar, wind, or storage.

 

[ksanders]

Yes - it is ok to be a dreamer. Innovation would be stagnate without it.

Here in the state of South Australia, we are now producing over 60% of electricity by wind and solar. This has been increasing by about 7% per year. 5 years ago the general consensus was that 40% was the maximum possible, and 60% needed to be gas/coal/nuclear for a stable load base. The dreamers pushed on.

We installed the world's largest battery (although California has now installed a larger one) and tweaked the control systems to continue to push the boundaries. Our last coal fired power station is now shut down. The natural gas fired power stations are reducing output, and all new power systems will be solar, wind, or storage.

Yep, developing storage solutions is the key to renewables!

 

[GoneFarrell]

AusC,
Has your cost for juice changed with the transition?

Best regards.

 

[BandB]

I think EPA, OSHA and maybe a few other agencies have all but shut that down in the US.

Years ago, I needed some lead sheeting, there was only one place listed on the web selling lead, way out west. Well, I needed it so I paid for shipping it. LOL

I'm not sure they are still in business.

Ecobat Technologies owns RSR Corporation in Dallas which owns Revere in NY and Quemetco in Indiana and California and does lead smelting meeting all EPA requirements. These are secondary smelters, only recycling.

Other smelters have largely disappeared due to both continued EPA violations and to general mismanagement and bankruptcy. Exide is one example.

I do believe all primary lead smelters in the US did shut down.

 

[OldDan1943]

I do believe all primary lead smelters in the US did shut down.

That is my understanding too but, reluctant to say because of my shabby memory.

 

[Hippocampus]

For boating it’s worthwhile to recognize there’s two ways to skin the cat to achieve “hybrid “.
First use electric engines. When batteries run low and alt. energy can’t keep up start a fuel based genset producing only electricity.
Second have the fuel based engine on a clutch. Engage the clutch when the electric engine can’t get sufficient energy from the batteries. Then fuel based engine propels the boat and also spins the electric engine converting it into a genset.
Approximately 30% of fuel based engines energy loss output of combustion is as heat. There’s further loss in transmission to the prop. Hence shaft HP is lower than engine. Modifications of the Wankel design are a bit more efficient and even steam or other liquid/vapor engines can be as well. Unlike cars in most marine applications a fairly fixed velocity of the vehicle suffices. There’s considerable room for improvement in nm/g. both in propulsion design and hull/appendage design.
Even for long distance cruisers the vast majority of transits are under 100m (coastal or island hopping). A hybrid system allowing that distance with electric and with the fuel based engine called on for the rare longer distances or times of adverse currents/ sea states would suffice even for that group. Think most folks travel <50nm per day here conversation to hybrid should be even easier.

 

[divebums]

Move overseas. America is going the wrong way, anyway.
Instead of the "loop", do the Atlantic and Med.

Madeira is my target

Original poster here. The thread got off topic and we appreciate your reply to our original questions. We had not considered the Med. We'll do some reading on the subject.

Interesting the many assumptions we've read so far about us but we'll try to clarify for those addressing our original post. We're both 49 and planning to retire between 52 and 55 pending our health insurance coverage options prior to medicare. We do a lot of boating now on the Chesapeake in a 35' express with twin crusaders. Our concerns aren't focused on saving the world or going green. We like to think we do our part. We would love to cruise thru our 50's and longer and were wondering what peoples thoughts were on the impact of this energy shift and recreational boating. We will have a comfortable retirement financially but don't want to put a large chunk of cash into a boat if an experienced community like this felt the future of recreational boating was bleak. That's all, nothing political and not trying to stir things up. Still interested in your thoughts though and thanks for an interesting thread so far!

 

[OldDan1943]

Divebums, I think you will be fine. All this talk about electric or hybrid boats is mostly theory with some exceptions.
Long haul trucks will remain diesel for many years. Takes too long to charge the batteries. Maybe local delivery trucks will be EVs.
Cargo ships will also remain as it is now. Most are diesel electric but some are still turbine driven.
Aviation will remain as it is now.
Trains will are diesel electric so they too will remain the same.
We might own 2 cars, one EV for around town and one gas or diesel hybrid for long distance.
As far as boats, I would not be afraid to buy a diesel driven boat and or generator. I suspect existing boats will be 'grandfathered' in.
I could be wrong but, I dont think so.
Note: It took forever for the US Navy to switch from 'bunker fuel' to 'light fuel'. I think it will take double 'forever' to change to another form of fuel, if they do at all.
Question: Did I answer your question?

 

[JLD]

We're both 49 and planning to retire between 52 and 55 pending our health insurance coverage options prior to medicare. ... We would love to cruise thru our 50's and longer and were wondering what peoples thoughts were on the impact of this energy shift and recreational boating.

My advice is to buy your new boat and enjoy your earlier retirement!

Ten years from now, diesel may cost more (it's really historically low now) and will still be available. For many folks, cost of fuel is not their major boating expense anyway.

Jim

 

[johnma]

I would not worry too much about the green movement. We decided to make our retirement plans 10 years before retirement so the boat would be paid for before retiring. We did not sell the house and are on the boat 4-5 days a week during the season.