Recreational Boating & the Green Movement

[CaptTom]

The system is a little less than 75% efficient. Not bad if you could manage when you purchased and sold the power. You may even make money, maybe.

You most certainly can make good money.

On the wholesale market, electricity is priced based on the immediate demand. The price range is huge. You don't need to be very efficient to make money by storing energy off-peak and selling it back on-peak.

Right now the killer app for battery storage is to stabilize the grid during brief transients. You don't need to have enough storage to replace solar for an entire cloudy day. Having standby power ready to go on-line for just a few moments during certain times can be extremely profitable.

 

[Codger2]

Hmmmm, gotta wake up mate to get to the head at night. LOL

It is an interesting concept. Not for me but, sound ideal for you.
How long is the mattress? (Absolutely true!)

Just add a single portable propane burner and live out of a duffle bag. Of course, you have to figure out how to wash up the dishes and you.

Let us know when you are going to do the loop.

Your comments are very true (funny) if one's goal is to cruise the boat over night!
The longest place to sleep (or nap) is the salon starboard settee which measures 6 feet. Certainly not suitable for me or many others unless the fetal position will suffice for a nap. The boat doesn't have any mattress. Yes, a duffel bag would be required for longer cruise but since the boat has an inverter, making coffee & microwaving are no problem! Wash dishes? Paper cups & plates are required. The head has 2 handles to lower yourself on to the toilet. (And get back up!) The Tecma Easy Fit Premiun + is absolutely better than any other toilet I've ever had on a boat! (10)

It's tank level monitoring is super! (Green for empty, yellow for half full & Red for full. (Once you get s red light, you can only flush 5 more times until the toilet locks you from flushing. (You must either dump to the sea or pump out before the head restores the flushing program.

Duffy boats have been sold for over 50 years (Approx 13,000) and believe me, they have solved a lot of manufacturing problems & have made owning a day cruising boat effortless!

 

[Codger2]

Your Duffy looks like the perfect boat for you at your stage of life, with your cruising goals. I see no problem with it being powered exclusively by batteries. Actually I think electric power for you was a good choice!

Thanks, Kevin! You have correctly stated my cruising position in very few words! "Brevity is the soul of wit!"

 

[OldDan1943]

Your comments are very true (funny) if one's goal is to cruise the boat over night!
The longest place to sleep (or nap) is the salon starboard settee which measures 6 feet. Certainly not suitable for me or many others unless the fetal position will suffice for a nap. The boat doesn't have any mattress. Yes, a duffel bag would be required for longer cruise but since the boat has an inverter, making coffee & microwaving are no problem! Wash dishes? Paper cups & plates are required. The head has 2 handles to lower yourself on to the toilet. (And get back up!) The Tecma Easy Fit Premiun + is absolutely better than any other toilet I've ever had on a boat! (10)

It's tank level monitoring is super! (Green for empty, yellow for half full & Red for full. (Once you get s red light, you can only flush 5 more times until the toilet locks you from flushing. (You must either dump to the sea or pump out before the head restores the flushing program.

Duffy boats have been sold for over 50 years (Approx 13,000) and believe me, they have solved a lot of manufacturing problems & have made owning a day cruising boat effortless!

Yes Duffy has produce boat for a long time. I viewed the videos.
They are very will done.
The cushions fwd are not long enough to sleep on? I guess if you cannot fit on the starboard bench, time to pump up the air mattress and sleep on the floor.
Pump the sanitary tank to sea? Ummmm, I do not think I would venture out 3 miles to dump the sanitary tank.
Inverter? Hey you can heat up a can of corned beef.
Do you have a 12vt fridge or do you use ice?
When I looked at the list options, one could drop at least another $8K.
May I ask, what is the base price of the boat with extra batteries?
I am sure you get many hours in the boat. It is basically a very simple boat and nearly fail-proof.
That annual $1,900 fee is no doubt well worth the money.
Enjoy, enjoy.

 

[ksanders]

Here are my back of the envelope calcs on Blenheim. Feel free to correct. Blenheim has an installed capacity of 1134 MWe. There is enough water to run for about 12 hrs and it can generate 12,000MWhrs of power. It takes 17,000MWhrs of pump power to move the water back up the hill to the storage pond. The system is a little less than 75% efficient. Not bad if you could manage when you purchased and sold the power. You may even make money, maybe.

Here is the fun part. To fill that storage pond in 12 hrs with solar you need a 1417 MW solar farm (assuming you get 12 hrs of full output, which you wont). 1 MW solar takes up 5 acres. Sooo 1417MW X 5 acres = 7080 acres of 11 sguare miles.

If you swap out the solar for the newest large 15 MWe wind turbine you need 1000 of them to do the same work. Land use for those monster is no small matter either.

Tesla is working with California to build a 730 MWhr battery farm that has an option to be upgraded to 1200 MWhr. Reportedly the biggest in the world so far.

It is going to be interesting to see how this all plays out. IMHO the train has left the station and the green power folks will fleece the tax and rate payers in the name of saving the planet. People are going to fight the land use issue. There will be many stories to come about clearing trees for wind and solar.

You should have seen them freaking out when we proposed a dam here in Alaska that would flood a valley nobody lives in, and only a few hikers a year even go to since there are no established trails there.

OMG! We were shut down after one little public hearing. You would have thought we were trying to ruin the world.

Hydro energy here in Alaska is super reliable because of our large annual precipitation. It's as environmentally friendly as it can get.

"they" don't want renewable energy. They want a magic box that has zero footprint, and unlimited output.

The problem is the box is made out of unobtanium

 

[ksanders]

You most certainly can make good money.

On the wholesale market, electricity is priced based on the immediate demand. The price range is huge. You don't need to be very efficient to make money by storing energy off-peak and selling it back on-peak.

Right now the killer app for battery storage is to stabilize the grid during brief transients. You don't need to have enough storage to replace solar for an entire cloudy day. Having standby power ready to go on-line for just a few moments during certain times can be extremely profitable.

True words spoken!

Up in Fairbanks the utility has a large battery/inverter system that was initially installed to cover their spinning reserve requirements on our interconnect.

That allowed them to more fully load their units, and keep units offline and still meet our stability requirements.

A similar battery bank, charged with renewable energy could be used as a regulation unit to keep things in balance.

 

[ksanders]

Thanks, Kevin! You have correctly stated my cruising position in very few words! "Brevity is the soul of wit!"

What a gorgeous boat!

 

[Benthic2]

Up in Fairbanks the utility has a large battery/inverter system that was initially installed to cover their spinning reserve requirements on our interconnect.

That allowed them to more fully load their units, and keep units offline and still meet our stability requirements.

A similar battery bank, charged with renewable energy could be used as a regulation unit to keep things in balance.

I think it is more cost effective for the utilities to have Demand Response programs that can reduce peak loads when they approach critical levels. These programs give the Electric Companies control over the end users consumption. If they sense a critical situation approaching they can adjust homeowners thermostats by a few degrees, dim the lights a little in large commercial buildings, and control water heaters. It seems a little "Big Brother-ish" but it is entirely voluntary and customers are compensated for the capability and also any time the program is enacted.

 

[ksanders]

I think it is more cost effective for the utilities to have Demand Response programs that can reduce peak loads when they approach critical levels. These programs give the Electric Companies control over the end users consumption. If they sense a critical situation approaching they can adjust homeowners thermostats by a few degrees, dim the lights a little in large commercial buildings, and control water heaters. It seems a little "Big Brother-ish" but it is entirely voluntary and customers are compensated for the capability and also any time the program is enacted.

That WILL NOT work for the type of situation that I described and the type of situation that happens every day to power systems around the world. The needs we face are immediate.

I'm not saying it's a bad idea. It's a good idea to solve slow moving issues like knowing that you do not have capacity to handle peak loads that will occur this evening.

But, at least in the USA it still has challenges to realistically implement at a residential level especially. The list of engineering challenges is HUGE and all you are REALLY doing is masking the utilities failure to be able to supply forecast loads.

 

[Ross Macdonald]

Try looking at Marine Traffic on line to see all ships and yachts that are sending AIS signals. Just focus on the container ships and you will see virtually hundreds and hundreds at any given time on the move. Almost all consumer goods are transported by ships. We are in Ensenada and over the last two months at least 20 container ships have on and off loaded here. Check the number of container ships in LA Long Beach or waiting just off shore. If you eliminate fossil fuel the whole world will come to a standstill. Everyone of these folks who want to eliminate fossil fuel need to explain how all of the consumer goods around the world can be transported. Can't wait to hear the answer.

 

[Northern Spy]

You should have seen them freaking out when we proposed a dam here in Alaska that would flood a valley nobody lives in, and only a few hikers a year even go to since there are no established trails there.

OMG! We were shut down after one little public hearing. You would have thought we were trying to ruin the world.

Hydro energy here in Alaska is super reliable because of our large annual precipitation. It's as environmentally friendly as it can get.

"they" don't want renewable energy. They want a magic box that has zero footprint, and unlimited output.

The problem is the box is made out of unobtanium

Yes. That is the case in BC as well. These people are prime fodder for perpetual motion scams. Everyone wants something for nothing.

 

[rslifkin]

If you eliminate fossil fuel the whole world will come to a standstill. Everyone of these folks who want to eliminate fossil fuel need to explain how all of the consumer goods around the world can be transported. Can't wait to hear the answer.

That's one of those things where we don't have a solution for many of those use cases right now. That doesn't mean we won't have one at some point. And it doesn't mean we won't have a solution for plenty of other use cases sooner.

 

[Northern Spy]

I think it is more cost effective for the utilities to have Demand Response programs that can reduce peak loads when they approach critical levels. These programs give the Electric Companies control over the end users consumption. If they sense a critical situation approaching they can adjust homeowners thermostats by a few degrees, dim the lights a little in large commercial buildings, and control water heaters. It seems a little "Big Brother-ish" but it is entirely voluntary and customers are compensated for the capability and also any time the program is enacted.

I mill I used to work at made more money from BC Hydro for shutting down our ThermoMechanical Pulp line during peak demand than we would have made by producing pulp. Literally had a hot line from our powerhouse to the electric system operator.

Of course, we are talking about 10-15 megawatt motors here...

 

[OldDan1943]

I mill I used to work at made more money from BC Hydro for shutting down our ThermoMechanical Pulp line during peak demand than we would have made by producing pulp. Literally had a hot line from our powerhouse to the electric system operator.

Of course, we are talking about 10-15 megawatt motors here...

Next time, get a soon to be decommissioned nuc sub and run electrical like to its generators. WINK

 

[KnotYet]

...
The facts are that CA has a long way to go to become self sufficient with electricity before it can add an infrastructure as envisioned in 25 years. During this 25 years the suppliers of surplus will have less to share.

As I have stated twice before, there is no plan or need for CA to become energy self sufficient.
That is your brainworm.

The plan is for zero carbon, which the piddly 10.6 TWh annually from BC makes a 4% contribution toward. The yearly increase in CA renewables would more than cover that were it no longer there.

Feel free to ignore and not bother with replies.

 

[Art]

Diverse mix of new power sources will be devised to move all sorts of vehicles, enable tool usage and to power stationary manufacturing sources as well as electricity productions.

It will take many decades to get past the historic 20th Century and beginning of 21st Century liquid fueled combustion engine creations. Currently there are well over two billion gasoline, diesel, and kerosene, as well as, natural gas and propane fueled engines. These engines simply must continue to be used - otherwise - global economic conditions will crumble. Processes of phase out will reach into the end of this century

Enormous overload of carbon dioxide and methane in atmosphere is too quickly warming Earth via their solar heat absorption. Those two burned fossil fuel emittances are the initiators of anthropogenically created/introduced climate change and global warming.

Non-Cycle, Carbon "Positive" refined fossil fuel usage must be, will be and can be made to undergo great reduction. CO2 overload [the primary atmospheric warming increment] will be separated from ambient air and reconfigured into "drop-in" liquid hydrocarbon fuels. These liquid fuels will be fungible with refined fossil fuels. The CO2 based portion of these new source liquid hydrocarbon gasoline, diesel, jet and kerosene fuels will create Full-Cycle, Carbon "Neutral" fuel.

In addition to these new fuels curtailing the use of fossil fuels, there will also be enough CO2 and methane separated out of the atmosphere so these two earth warming gasses can be massively sequestered into empty oil fields, salt mines and other caverns. This storage will be utilized in future centuries for sorts of new products as well as for various types of ongoing Full-Cycle, Carbon "Neutral" fuels.

Size and scope of this multi faceted worldwide endeavor dwarfs any other global need ever encountered; or, for that matter, ever dreamed of. Reality is... human race [civilization] has but a few decades remaining to be successful accomplishing needs apparent - before Earth's ecosystem spirals into life debilitating collapse. This is undeniably a life or death race to secure our decedents' future livability and comfort on Earth.

"Save Earth's Ecosystem" is the mantra of my corporation. For nearly 30 years, associates and I have been deeply connected and concentrated into what is mentioned above.

Thoughtful regards. Keep the faith!!

Art

 

[OldDan1943]

KnotYet, by the way, how is the 'tax payer' funded train building doing? LOL Just a little over budget?

 

[fryedaze]

Next time, get a soon to be decommissioned nuc sub and run electrical like to its generators. WINK

[emoji106][emoji106][emoji106]

 

[Wayne]

'Lo All,
I remember this same exact discussion in High School - late '50s. Some things take a LONG time to change, and that, I believe, comes about as a result of economics for the most part.

 

[eswanson23]

As demand goes down when homes, cars, ships and engines etc. become more efficient, demand will also go down and prices will follow. I think the remaining dependent uses will benefit by lower prices.

 

[johnrupp]

As demand goes down when homes, cars, ships and engines etc. become more efficient, demand will also go down and prices will follow. I think the remaining dependent uses will benefit by lower prices.

We have a winner.[emoji106]

 

[KnotYet]

KnotYet, by the way, how is the 'tax payer' funded train building doing? LOL Just a little over budget?

The 'taxpayer funded' modifier is unnecessary in that all trains are taxpayer funded.

But the train project is a bummer from what I understand, and I'm far from an insider.
It is very ambitious but the US is not very good at building new train systems, even a 500 mile one.

The only idea that makes sense is a direct line serving L.A. and San Francisco.
Myself and others would like nothing better than riding a train to and from San Francisco.

There seems to be a lot of people that don't want a train near them, imagine that!
Maybe they should just have Elon Musk put a vacuum tunnel underground and be done.

 

[KnotYet]

As demand goes down when homes, cars, ships and engines etc. become more efficient, demand will also go down and prices will follow. I think the remaining dependent uses will benefit by lower prices.

Welcome.
I'm not saying it's impossible but it would be the first time!

Remember when nuclear energy was going to make electricity 'too cheap to meter'?

 

[fryedaze]

As demand goes down when homes, cars, ships and engines etc. become more efficient, demand will also go down and prices will follow. I think the remaining dependent uses will benefit by lower prices.

Please expand on that thought. I can't see increased in inefficiency

 

[Curiosity]

You cannot put a price on fun or time.



Curiosity 32/36

 

[Lou_tribal]

Only thing that is green is what eats, poo and die. If you want to have something 100% green, make your tools by hand using stones, hunt your meal and grow your vegetables (but without tractors).
Green energy is an utopia, you can produce energy with wind, solar, water or burning whatever you want, but in no way this is green as what you need to produce this energy is made of man made elements and need energy, mined minerals and artificial material to be built.
This is a wonderful marketing and political concept made to forget that the main point is not to be green but to be energy efficient and conservative. How about to stop wasting this energy? Simple things to do. Slowest less energy hungry cars, turn off unneeded lights like closed stores at 2AM, heat houses a bit less instead of growing tropical trees in our living room, start to eat local seasonal food instead of things grown on the other side of the rock etc etc etc
Green is just a concept to reassure us, give good conscious, and ensure we will continue to consume goods provided they are green.

Funny to see a thread about green boating when we are running petrol based engines and our boats are mainly made with plastic.

L

 

[OldDan1943]

Only thing that is green is what eats, poo and die. If you want to have something 100% green, make your tools by hand using stones, hunt your meal and grow your vegetables (but without tractors).
Green energy is an utopia, you can produce energy with wind, solar, water or burning whatever you want, but in no way this is green as what you need to produce this energy is made of man made elements and need energy, mined minerals and artificial material to be built.
This is a wonderful marketing and political concept made to forget that the main point is not to be green but to be energy efficient and conservative. How about to stop wasting this energy? Simple things to do. Slowest less energy hungry cars, turn off unneeded lights like closed stores at 2AM, heat houses a bit less instead of growing tropical trees in our living room, start to eat local seasonal food instead of things grown on the other side of the rock etc etc etc
Green is just a concept to reassure us, give good conscious, and ensure we will continue to consume goods provided they are green.

Funny to see a thread about green boating when we are running petrol based engines and our boats are mainly made with plastic.

L

I totally agree with you. It is all PR and a way for govts to impose their new rules and regulations that they will only selectively enforce.
"They" tried is in the 60s too.

 

[jbloyd]

The future of power generation

I'm going total electric. I just ordered the new, compact fusion reactor kit from China National Nuclear Corporation that can be assembled from parts easily found at Home Depot. Complete assembly instructions are included and it looks pretty simple.
These are the easily-followed steps:
1. 給中國公司多錢
2. 從Home Depot購買許多中國零件
3. 使用中文工具組裝零件
4. 加入十六盎司的蒸餾水作為燃料
5. 連線至中國鋰電池組
6. 享受免費功率為你的餘生

What could go wrong?

 

[OldDan1943]

I'm going total electric. I just ordered the new, compact fusion reactor kit from China National Nuclear Corporation that can be assembled from parts easily found at Home Depot. Complete assembly instructions are included and it looks pretty simple.
These are the easily-followed steps:
1. 給中國公司多錢
2. 從Home Depot購買許多中國零件
3. 使用中文工具組裝零件
4. 加入十六盎司的蒸餾水作為燃料
5. 連線至中國鋰電池組
6. 享受免費功率為你的餘生

What could go wrong?

To quote Elizabeth Barrett Browning, "Let me count the ways."

 

[FF]

The big hassle is once the Gov decides to pump cash into a project , it becomes "the way"and experimenting any other way doesn't happen.

A great example is space launches where private , for profit ,competition is on the way to reduce launch costs to 1/100 per pound.

The dead hand of gov does not like to answer for any failure , the private sector has no problem knowing in advance failure is necessary to advance.