Shipping On Freighter Contract Questions

[Boatcrazy]

We shipped our 43' monohull sailboat from Phuket, Thailand to Marmaris, Turkey in 2011, and then 4 years later from Genoa, Italy to St Thomas, USVI. Both times we used Seven Star. Yes, we bought the additional insurance, as a precaution. Our boat was unloaded and then reloaded (unscheduled and without our knowledge) in India, and the gantry "touched" our masthead. Seven Star did NOT notify us of the unload/reload, nor the incident....but I found out from friends. I went up the mast, to inspect, and found a little damage and some grease globs. I immediately called the agent in charge, he investigated then called me and readily admitted the incident, and asked if $500 would cover the damage. I said that was to much (a $25 item was damaged and there were some grease globs to clean). His comment was...for your trouble and our mistake(!), I accepted, received the check, and all were happy! I'd call that pretty good customer service! Oh, they were about 3 weeks late on the Phuket pickup-but they notified us of the status about every 3rd day-and they were about 10 days late in Genoa...but, again, they kept us informed. EVERYTHING else was by the numbers-no complaints at all!

 

[BandB]

Many shipments do have intermediate stops, unloadings and reloadings, even changes of ships. For instance, shipments from Fort Lauderdale to the PNW often have stops and/or unloadings in Golfito or in Ensenada.

I don't know who the shipper was but once heard of a boat coming from the west coast to Fort Lauderdale and the ship stopped to unload some cargo in New Orleans. One mistake made. They moved the boat to the water briefly instead of moving it around on deck. Then they couldn't load it back and take it to Fort Lauderdale due to the Jones Act so a captain had to go bring it the rest of the way.

 

[Greggnvt]

I shipped my boat from San Diego (Ensenada) last month (Oct 2020) to Port Everglades (was suppose dock at Palm Beach but the transport ship (Happy Dover) draft was too much for Palm Beach) via Sevenstar. Two years earlier, I shipped it from Palm Beach to San Diego, via Ensenada with a different carrier/broker.

Shipping out of Ensenada, I used the same Captain out of Marina Coral that received my boat when it came in - 2 years earlier. Extremely pleased with Marina Coral and the captain that spoke VERY little English (and I speak zero Spanish). Because of CV19, shipping was delayed by nearly 2 months out of Ensenada. I asked Sevenstar for a Captain recommendation to receive my boat once it arrived in Port Everglades as I was in New England and not knowing exactly when it would arrive (it arrived a day earlier and my boat was one of the first offloaded) and ended up having the receiving Captain bring it up to Daytona Beach.

Shrink-wrapping: I don't recall the exact language that was in the shipping guide but shrink-wrapping was discouraged - something about it it tore loose, it could not only damage you boat but others around it. Also, kinda makes it hard to move your boat around if it's shrink-wrapped, and you'd need to be sure to have a zipper door for Customs (US or Mexico) if they wanted to do an inspection.

Below is the discussion on shipping insurance:

Geico to me:
Can you please confirm that the shipping company has coverage for the vessel while in transport.
Me to Sevenstar:
From what I understand, my vessel is considered "freight" at a value of US $XXX (K) and this is covered by the shipping company, correct?
Sevenstar to me:
Yes, your boat is insured during the voyage for the amount you had filled in on the insurance forms

 

[Capn James Brett]

I recently shipped my Grand Alaskan 65 from europe to PNW and would be happy to speak to you. One warning, do NOT us SevenSeas transport. They absolutely screwed me.
Let me know if you have any interest in a dialogue.

 

[Hippocampus]

JB unless there’s litigation in process or another reason would you expand? We used 7seas for St. Lucia to Newport RI earlier this year with no damage. Thinking of buying a West Coast boat and shipping at least as far as the Caribbean basin. If this comes to pass thinking of using seven seas again so very interested in the backstory.

 

[Capn James Brett]

JB unless there’s litigation in process or another reason would you expand? We used 7seas for St. Lucia to Newport RI earlier this year with no damage. Thinking of buying a West Coast boat and shipping at least as far as the Caribbean basin. If this comes to pass thinking of using seven seas again so very interested in the backstory.

Well after having made my last and final payment to Sevenseas, and my boat is 10 days out from delivery to Victoria, I get a demand letter from the sub contracted carrier, stating unless I pay 12.5K in 1-2 days, my boat will not be offloaded in Victoria. Seveanseas was going out of business and all their creditors wanted $$$, so I had to pay on top the negotiated rate, another 12.5K$$$. Very painful. Dmitry is not to be trusted.

 

[lwarden]

Well after having made my last and final payment to Sevenseas, and my boat is 10 days out from delivery to Victoria, I get a demand letter from the sub contracted carrier, stating unless I pay 12.5K in 1-2 days, my boat will not be offloaded in Victoria. Seveanseas was going out of business and all their creditors wanted $$$, so I had to pay on top the negotiated rate, another 12.5K$$$. Very painful. Dmitry is not to be trusted.

Was this recently? I saw some posts of issues in August, but it's not clear that SevenStar is in Chapter 11. Even though, I have a quote from United and although it's 10% higher they may be the safer bet.
I've heard this issue with a couple of the other companies, apparently it is a business where companies come and go and the customer gets stuck with the bill when they go belly up.

 

[BandB]

Was this recently? I saw some posts of issues in August, but it's not clear that SevenStar is in Chapter 11. Even though, I have a quote from United and although it's 10% higher they may be the safer bet.
I've heard this issue with a couple of the other companies, apparently it is a business where companies come and go and the customer gets stuck with the bill when they go belly up.

Don't confuse Sevenseas with Sevenstar. Not even close. Sevenstar very reputable. Sevenseas not. United far less dependable than Sevenstar or Dockwise.

Sevenstar is not in Chapter 11.

 

[lwarden]

Was this recently? I saw some posts of issues in August, but it's not clear that SevenStar is in Chapter 11. Even though, I have a quote from United and although it's 10% higher they may be the safer bet.
I've heard this issue with a couple of the other companies, apparently it is a business where companies come and go and the customer gets stuck with the bill when they go belly up.

Thanks for pointing this out, I see that it is Seven Seas who filed in August of this year.

 

[Hippocampus]

That’s what I thought as well and posted earlier.

 

[ProMaritime]

If anyone can make a suggestion for shipping a 47" power cat to Honolulu from anywhere in the Caribbean or the west coast of Central America or Mexico please let me know.

Got prices of $99 grand from Panama and $69 grand from Grand Bahama.

 

[Todd2]

Clearly the underwriters know something the average shipping customer does not.

I've heard stories of boats being transported on deck - apparently, they grind and weld to make cradles and they don't care about steel dust/spatter getting on other boats and corroding on the gelcoat. Also, they don't care about scratching or dinging the gelcoat with their tie down rigging. However, this does not seem to be consistent, even with the same carriers.

I also heard way fewer bad experiences with items (boats) shipped below deck. I do know that if the sipping company does not provide insurance, they pay you $0 if they drop your boat overboard and it sinks to the bottom of the ocean.

Makes you think it through before you ship.

Todd

 

[boatpoker]

I've heard stories of boats being transported on deck - apparently, they grind and weld to make cradles and they don't care about steel dust/spatter getting on other boats and corroding on the gelcoat. Also, they don't care about scratching or dinging the gelcoat with their tie down rigging. However, this does not seem to be consistent, even with the same carriers.

I also heard way fewer bad experiences with items (boats) shipped below deck. I do know that if the sipping company does not provide insurance, they pay you $0 if they drop your boat overboard and it sinks to the bottom of the ocean.

Makes you think it through before you ship.

Todd

A smart owner will have an on-load (thats me doing the onload survey on this one) and an off-load surveyor document (over 300 photos) the whole operation. This one took 12 hours,15 people and had 40 blocks welded to the deck.

One should remember that a one sided contract is only as good as the judge thinks it is.

 

[tiltrider1]

My opinion, you should be able to run that boat on its own bottom to San Diego for $6,000. We get good weather windows in February. Delivery skipper should run around the clock, slow at night but fast during the day. Insurance this time of year would be the hardest part.

 

[BandB]

My opinion, you should be able to run that boat on its own bottom to San Diego for $6,000. We get good weather windows in February. Delivery skipper should run around the clock, slow at night but fast during the day. Insurance this time of year would be the hardest part.

Which boat are you talking about?

 

[lwarden]

I think he means my Lindell. I’ve got a reasonable quote to bring it down on its own bottom with one deckhand. My insurance won’t allow it until May 15th and insists on three onboard. This may still be the best option and if things don’t come together I will be doing this in May. I could try and find other insurance but would rather not deal with that.

 

[BandB]

I think he means my Lindell. I’ve got a reasonable quote to bring it down on its own bottom with one deckhand. My insurance won’t allow it until May 15th and insists on three onboard. This may still be the best option and if things don’t come together I will be doing this in May. I could try and find other insurance but would rather not deal with that.

I guess. Glad for your insurance. I would never, and the delivery captains I trust, run 24/7 with fewer than 3 people and never run daytime only with fewer than 2.

Why does your insurance have the May 15 date?

 

[Insequent]

I think he means my Lindell. I’ve got a reasonable quote to bring it down on its own bottom with one deckhand. My insurance won’t allow it until May 15th and insists on three onboard. This may still be the best option and if things don’t come together I will be doing this in May. I could try and find other insurance but would rather not deal with that.

I am a bit confused with your dates. I understand that the Hurricane season in the East Pacific Ocean ran from May 15 to November 30 in 2020. So you would need to complete the trip prior to May 15 (assuming 2021 dates are the same) to avoid the hurricane season. It makes no sense to allow the trip after May 15. Do you have the insurance advice in writing, or was it verbal on the phone (and the wrong way around)?

 

[lwarden]

I am a bit confused with your dates. I understand that the Hurricane season in the East Pacific Ocean ran from May 15 to November 30 in 2020. So you would need to complete the trip prior to May 15 (assuming 2021 dates are the same) to avoid the hurricane season. It makes no sense to allow the trip after May 15. Do you have the insurance advice in writing, or was it verbal on the phone (and the wrong way around)?

I was told this by my very experienced insurance broker. The boat can only be covered on the trip between May 15th and October 15th, and this is only with a special trip endorsement. I presume the insurance company is concerned over winter storms although we can get some nasty stuff during the summer months too.
The delivery captain was going to harbor hop so no planned overnight legs.

 

[BandB]

I was told this by my very experienced insurance broker. The boat can only be covered on the trip between May 15th and October 15th, and this is only with a special trip endorsement. I presume the insurance company is concerned over winter storms although we can get some nasty stuff during the summer months too.
The delivery captain was going to harbor hop so no planned overnight legs.

Sounds insane. What happens next winter, do you have no insurance?

 

[tiltrider1]

I was referring to the OP’s boat. If running around the clock I recommend minimum of 3. As mentioned getting insurance for a winter run would be the challenge. Weather windows are very tricky from October to May. I didn’t mean to suggest just any one could make this delivery. I would only trust some one with winter experience and the time to be flexible. While not a surprise there were zero days in November that one could have moved the boat but February is much different than November. On the other hand we saw a container ship come into port with containers hanging off the side.

 

[Insequent]

I was told this by my very experienced insurance broker. The boat can only be covered on the trip between May 15th and October 15th, and this is only with a special trip endorsement. I presume the insurance company is concerned over winter storms although we can get some nasty stuff during the summer months too.
The delivery captain was going to harbor hop so no planned overnight legs.

Your broker may well be correct. On reflection I think the May15-Nov 30 hurricane exclusion is for crossing from USA into Mexico (and points further south).

 

[Hippocampus]

Will mention when looking at insurance you need to know if you will have “standing” in court should things go south. I’m no lawyer but know of instance where the owner was a US citizen and insurance company was licensed and based in another country. When insurance failed to perform adequately ( no action for months and months) owner had to hire another bunch of lawyers based in insurance company’s home country. Due to specialized nature of this legal work those lawyers charged big bucks. After much expense and time claim finally fulfilled.

 

[lwarden]

Sounds insane. What happens next winter, do you have no insurance?

The boat will be in Southern California and will be covered with a policy for that area after the move, just like now it is limited to the PNW inside the Salish Sea, different rates for each area. It doesn't seem insane to me, risks are very different in each area and much higher transiting the coast north of Point Conception.

 

[tiltrider1]

I was told this by my very experienced insurance broker. The boat can only be covered on the trip between May 15th and October 15th, and this is only with a special trip endorsement. I presume the insurance company is concerned over winter storms although we can get some nasty stuff during the summer months too.
The delivery captain was going to harbor hop so no planned overnight legs.

I see we’re you got the $10,000 quote motoring down the coast. In order to run days only and harbor hop you will need to run at 25 kts in the winter.

Just food for thought, a delivery skipper who runs hard by day and sleeps in the marina at night all at the owner’s expense is over charging for his services, unless he his doing it at the owners request. When you pay $350 a day, I would expect the skipper to run a 24 hour day.

 

[boatpoker]

When you pay $350 a day, I would expect the skipper to run a 24 hour day.

What kind of experience are you buying for $14/hr ?

 

[Ka_sea_ta]

Jim, when he was building that model had a dealer in Calif. They had a couple of demo boats down there. I would get in touch with Jim and find out how they transported them down from Camano Is. I know ours was originally a demo boat down there and was transported back north.

 

[lwarden]

A lot of conjecture going on in this thread....
The quote was for running the boat down in the spring/summer.
My boat can cruise comfortably at 20-24 knots, weather permitting. The trip was only down to Santa Barbara where I would take it from there, so a bit less of a distance. They figured 7 days with travel to and from the boat.
Captain is very experienced doing deliveries in these waters and has good references.

Ka-sea-ta, Jim was contacted by Associated Boat Transport and he said the boat is 15' high and cannot be disassembled (without major work). That means it can be shipped as a "super load", but must go through Nevada, presumably down the 395. Not a simple task and the quote was $19K. That being said, I do believe they have been shipped on a truck before, but most ran on their own bottoms from what I understand. There is one now in the yard with my boat which came from Santa Ana, from what I was told it came up on it's own bottom.

 

[mvweebles]

Surprised at the insurance restriction on not running Nov-May. Sure, wx windows are a bit more difficult to fund, but not impossible. Right now, seas are 2-ft out of the East along the WA/OR coast. Probably could have left 2-days ago and made it to at least Crescent City, maybe further (maybe much further).

Harbor hopping is difficult. All-weather ports are too far apart (Grays Harbor to Yaquina is something like 300nms), or you have to time bar crossing for both entrance and departure. All while respecting the weather. When I was delivering along this coast I had one rule: if the weather is decent, keep the boat moving.

I wish I could have done more deliveries with three people aboard. But truth is, it can be tough to schedule a single [good] crew. Majority of my deliveries along this coast were with one of a few good crew I could depend on. I was 20-years younger then and sleep was difficult so I'm not sure I could manage it now, but at the time, it was fine.

Almost 20-years ago, I stayed very busy at $400/day for me plus $125/day for crew, plus all expenses. Had I had the types of insurance restrictions discussed in this thread, I could not have stayed busy 250-days/year and would have raised my rates accordingly. Not sure the market would bear the increase, but to be honest, I don't recall a single non-sailor questioning the rates.

Peter

 

[guy with a boat]

A lot of conjecture going on in this thread....
The quote was for running the boat down in the spring/summer.
My boat can cruise comfortably at 20-24 knots, weather permitting. The trip was only down to Santa Barbara where I would take it from there, so a bit less of a distance. They figured 7 days with travel to and from the boat.
Captain is very experienced doing deliveries in these waters and has good references.

I’ve done that route by both methods and would (will) lean strongly towards running the boat down the coast vs. putting it on a ship. Besides the liability and damage issues that have been discussed, there are additional costs and complications to shipping. These include having the boat delivered to the ship when they say they are ready, having someone meet the ship and take delivery of the boat, your transportation to Ensenada and cost of return to SD, possible shrink wrap, etc.

The insurance issue shouldn’t be a deal breaker. Your current insurer may not want to cover the trip, but a good broker will quickly find you coverage for the trip. If you need a broker, I can give you a good referral and there are others, including on this site. The winter exclusion period makes sense due to the weather on the north part of that route. Others are thinking tropical storms but the risk of big storms up north is in the winter.

Your captain will just need to wait for the right window and avoid the storms if it is done in the winter. I have a friend that made the run in February (Anacortes to Dana Point - 6 1/2 days non-stop) and had good weather the whole trip. You will be going with the swell and current which helps tremendously. The boat will come right to you and you will save the Ensenada trip which has its own challenges, especially now. If you want to meet the boat in Santa Barbara, you get to make a nice run in fairly protected waters from there to SD, and don’t have an international border to deal with.

The issue of running daytime vs overnight is its own discussion. Go with whatever seems best to you and your captain. A combination of the two might be good.

Good luck. Let us know how it goes.