Should I buy or walk

[BandB]

Yes the offer hasn't been accepted yet but the Broker is acting like it's my boat. I am thinking he knows more of what the seller was expecting so feel pretty confident my offer will be accepted. Having said that the offer must be accepted by Aug. 28th or it's void.

My survey will be after that probably the first week of Sept. Full Survey or in water? I was thinking full then have the bottom painted and props cleaned once everything is finalized.

Sea Trial, and survey are the contingencies as well as the sea cocks being operational. I want those fixed first in order for me to have insurance to take it out of port. We will see what they counter with or if they accept that.

Once again thanks all for the good ideas and input!

But it's not your boat and you shouldn't proceed until you've got an accepted offer. Doesn't matter how broker acts. Broker wants you wanting it and seller wanting to sell and then may feel he can close the price gap. But right now you have nothing.

 

[Xsbank]

If the water leaked enough to damage the interior teak, you need to be VERY careful that the structure dried out and is not rotting away as I type this. They are BAD for rot, take a look at the current rot thread.

 

[Flatswing]

Your process seems confusing to me as most purchases follow the sequence: 1) (negotiated) purchase price subject to survey/mechanical inspection & sea trial followed by:
2) acceptance (usually conditional on a price adjustment as a result of the survey & sea trial) followed by:
3) final sale as soon as the paperwork is complete, monies have changed hand and taxes/brokerage commissions paid.

You describe a sea trial with a survey some time later. How so? Usually you need to clean & inspect not only the running gear but especially clean the intakes (not always done completely by a diver) before sea trial or you will never know if (why not) you can reach manufacturer's spec for WOT for the Leymans. (don't even consider a boat that can't run WOT for 5-10 minutes after appropriate warm up without overheating). The surveyor will check the blisters and possible delamination during the "wash & hang" and finish the survey during the sea trial immediately after the boat is re-splashed. usually this will require some full lock to lock circles as well as forward back shifting to check motor mounts etc. Based on the boats I've had surveyed for purchase, I can't see how you can separate the two.

If you are insuring the boat, plan on having to fix any deficiencies found during survey to keep the insurers happy. This is the "catch 22" - you need more than an insurance survey to avoid costly ownership issues in future, but any defects you find usually have to be fixed to qualify for hull/replacement insurance.

w.r.t superficial blisters: Usually if small, they extend through the gel coat and at least the 1st laminate. The selling broker will tell you that they may not require any treatment per se. However they do affect the overall value of the boat since you will either have to accept "damaged goods" relative to a hull w/o blisters or, (potentially) pay to have it properly tested, peeled and the laminate replaced and then repainted (you don't need gel kote on the bottom). (As high as $400-$500/linear foot of hull length in a quality yard depending on depth of blisters) Alternatively you can grind them out yourself, try to dry them out, then fill & paint which will last for years for a lot less (though new blisters will usually still form in the untreated portions of the hull bottom). Either way the resale value of the boat when you sell it will be reflected in it's condition when you sell

 

[tiltrider1]

On the subject of blisters. There are paint blisters and then there are gel coat blisters. Paint blister mean nothing. Gel coat blisters can be next to nothing or can be serious. Surveyors often call out blisters with out specifying which type they are. They often can’t specify which type they are because they don’t know. Paint blisters can also explain why a later surveyor didnt record any blisters, the paint just might be gone by then.

 

[Paramedic62]

I just bought a 43 Bestway Labelle - it had similar issues- unable to pump out the head, leaky windows and woodwork needs love inside and outside.


The head issue took me an afternoon and was caused by the pumpout hose collapsing on itself ( original rubber hoses) created an adapter from 1 inch electrical PVC conduit and pumped the tank out through the sender for tank level. Then replaced the pump out hose.


the windows all had neglected and clogged drains from the tracks that overflowed inside the boat, and the portlights all need new sealing gaskets.

 

[sunchaser]

Three questions for the OP, strange purchase process aside:

-- How much money are you willing to spend to fix the known and more importantly unknown list of defects?
-- Are you looking for a DIY hobbyist type vessel that will keep you away from friends and family or do you want to go cruising?
-- A presumably capable surveyor has deemed this vessel fair to poor thus affecting future resale, insurance and financing. Why ignore?

There are many boats for sale in your price range, some real keepers and some verifiable problem vessels. Find a good one that at least has heads that work, no odors and seems pristine for its age. Me, I'd keep looking. Set high goals and standards and wear out a pair of Nikes.

 

[psneeld]

On the subject of blisters. There are paint blisters and then there are gel coat blisters. Paint blister mean nothing. Gel coat blisters can be next to nothing or can be serious. Surveyors often call out blisters with out specifying which type they are. They often can’t specify which type they are because they don’t know. Paint blisters can also explain why a later surveyor didnt record any blisters, the paint just might be gone by then.

Exactly my experience and research.

While rarely an issue....not many really have a good handle on blisters and hydrolysis because often there is no real problem and no further investigation is ever done.

 

[Derik]

The first step was negotiating a price, the second a deposit and now a sea trial. I say sea trial but maybe it's the wrong term, it's simply the Broker and I taking the boat out. The Survey co will be the one running it a WOT not myself.

The contract has contingencies, Sea Trial, Survey, and sea cocks being repaired so they are operational.

I mentioned the survey earlier because I had many questions in regards to one and the two previous ones, but I have not and will not get a survey done until we have a contract.

The bottom of the boat is cleaned monthly by a dive co. I will ask about the intakes.

 

[Bigsfish]

I would be cautious in the ethics of the broker who hid the one survey from you, that’s a red flag to me.

Before I bought my current boat I paid for a survey on a boat I didn’t accept, I paid for a survey on my current boat too. I found more problems that the surveyor missed. Slightly less than a year later we are about to get the boat 100%. It never ends and when younger I enjoyed doing the work myself today it’s a PIA.

 

[dhays]

The first step was negotiating a price, the second a deposit and now a sea trial. I say sea trial but maybe it's the wrong term, it's simply the Broker and I taking the boat out. The Survey co will be the one running it a WOT not myself.

The contract has contingencies, Sea Trial, Survey, and sea cocks being repaired so they are operational.

I mentioned the survey earlier because I had many questions in regards to one and the two previous ones, but I have not and will not get a survey done until we have a contract.

The bottom of the boat is cleaned monthly by a dive co. I will ask about the intakes.

Sounds good Derik. It doesn't sound at this point that there is anything too scary about this boat subject to a good survey and sea trial. You just need to figure out if you are ready to do the repair maintenance on an older boat. If you can get the boat for a fair price, I see no reason to walk away at this point.

 

[OldDan1943]

I put a deposit down on a 43 Marine Trader yesterday. I wanted to look at the boat again so the Broker let me go down and get aboard without him. Once aboard I found some paperwork by the helm and several folders, I opened one and found a recent survey dated Dec.2017. This survey wasn't " available" according to the Broker since that deal had fallen through and the previous buyer didn't want to relinquish it. I was given a survey dated 2-04-2016. Where there were some issues but the boats Value was listed at 72,000 and it was in Fair Condition.

The Survey I found dated De. 2017 the boat was listed as in fair to poor condition.

The boat history is it had one long term owner who was from AZ and lived on it in San Diego for many years. He then sold it to Owner 2 who had it for a year, spent 20,000 on upgrades then sold it to owner 3 who is a Marine who's was recently transferred to Virginia a while ago.

The most recent survey lists more serious issues like low water pressure, toilets don't flush, 50 dime size blisters, Macerator weeping, cutlass bearing slight play starboard side, gland temp 155, ball cocks forzen to less serious issues like wing nuts on the battery's.

The other Survey covers the packing, blisters, ball cocks frozen and some other issues but nothing major.

The Brokers office is near the boat and encouraged me to keep the slip there, he's very busy and I think he simply didn't see this survey buried in all the paper work.

I know all boats (especially Marine Traders) in the 50,000 range will need work and planned on putting in some time getting it ready for voyages, I do woodwork, fiberglass work. The Lehmans are in good condition and the motor survey from 2016 was good and some things like exhaust, hoses and belts are all new.

Should I be alarmed at a fair to poor rating? I think the boat looks good, and the value is less than what I thought but almost what I am paying.

Sorry so long for my first post but give me your ideas. https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1985/Marine-Trader-Motor-Yacht-3049803/#.W3dvlIGPLrd

You put a deposit on a boat you had never seen? I do hope you learned a lesson on that one.

 

[dhays]

You put a deposit on a boat you had never seen? I do hope you learned a lesson on that one.

We had a recent thread about this. It is not unusual to include a deposit with an offer. If the offer is rejected or the boat fails to meet the buyers inspection or survey, then the deposit is returned.

 

[OldDan1943]

We had a recent thread about this. It is not unusual to include a deposit with an offer. If the offer is rejected or the boat fails to meet the buyers inspection or survey, then the deposit is returned.

Yea, I was so sure I was going to get a 55ft slip and sell this 75 ft slip, I put down $100K to escrow, leaving only $35k to pay to the private owner. This surrounding residential condo community has first refusal, they snatched that slip up quickly and my escrow was returned. I had sold stock, paid the necessary taxes on the profit in 2017. The money has just been hanging around my interest bearing checking account waiting to be reinvested in the market. Another 55ft slip has become available so this time, I offered to put down put $25K into escrow and told the realtor, together, we can earn him a tidy income this year without me tying up much of my cash. He said this time he is going to present 4 separate slips at one time for sale and maybe over-power them so maybe the association just might let me have the 55 ft slip. SHRUG. I know the association would like another scarce 75ft. So when I buy a 55ft slip, I will sell my 75 ft slip. This 34 ft boat rattles around the 75ft slip like pebbles in a tin can. I almost have to take a day trip just to hang the lines when going out. LOL

The point is, I walk past that 55 ft every day, at least twice a day. I am familiar with the slip. I have walked the stumpy dock. What else can I say, pilings, docking port side, 3 cleats and a dock box. I want a 2nd dock box and maybe an additional cleat on the finger pier and 3 more pelican hooks on the pilings. For some unknown reason, I like the pelican hooks a bit lower so I can tie the lines lower on the pilings. Maybe because there is less spring to the pilings during high winds.
I'm not getting my hopes up this time. I am just thankful I own a slip now. SHRUG

 

[Derik]

update

The offer was accepted, and I confronted the Broker about finding the latest survey. He seemed genuinely surprised. Like he said I don't see him trying to hide anything since he will see me weekly at the Marina.

The official Sea Trial will be the first of second week, I have a older 2016 motor survey but will probably get another one.

I am a Pacific Northwest transplant so no family here, GF and her daughter who I see once a week here but my daughters in NYC. I sold my business two and a half years ago. I don't have time to burn but once I sale my big old (lots of work) house I will have time to get the boat up to speed so I can go on some long distance voyages. I plan on staying on the boat a few days a week since my other house is 70 miles east. This boat was appealing because of all the deck space and large covered patio as well as room at the stern to fish.

 

[PD Monkey]

Hey Derik, check your PM's. Thanks.

 

[BandB]

.

The official Sea Trial will be the first of second week, I have a older 2016 motor survey but will probably get another one.

.

No probably. You definitely need to get a current survey. One you're paying for, one answerable to you.

 

[Bigsfish]

And get a buyers surveyor. The one a broker will offer will be one who is easy on the boat to make the sale.

 

[BruceK]

I would be cautious in the ethics of the broker who hid the one survey from you, that’s a red flag to me....

Interesting. As a buyer I assume the selling broker will promote the positives and leave me to discover the negatives, if I can.
As a seller I would not expect my broker to publicise the negatives.
Is there a duty of utmost good faith on US brokers,between broker and buyer, as well(as I fully expect)as between broker and seller client.
It`s hard to see how the broker could perform both duties,they appear to raise an incompatible conflict of interests.
I can`t see how the broker is under a duty, ethical or otherwise, to disclose a negative survey to a buyer. I`d have thought he was under a duty to his seller not to, unless instructed otherwise by his seller.

 

[BandB]

Is there a duty of utmost good faith on US brokers,between broker and buyer, as well(as I fully expect)as between broker and seller client.
r.

No. Broker works for the seller unless engaged by the buyer as strictly a buyer's broker. Can't work for both, even though some try to give the impression they are representing you as well. Only duty of faith is no fraud.

 

[Bigsfish]

My SSO

Ethics are important to me and I think if a broker knows a material fact he should divulge that fact. I don’t know any case law about boat sales but many cases concerning real estate exist that show if a broker doesn’t divulge a material fact that can come back to haunt him later. I personally know of a case where the PO of a home was murdered in that house and that information was withheld from the new owner who sued and won damages.

 

[tiltrider1]

First we need to know what state the boat is in. Then we will know more about broker requirements. States are not all equal when it comes to rules governing brokers.

Second, surveys are owned by the individual who paid for them. A broker can not just give you a past survey unless he has the permission of the survey owner. A boat owner is not under any obligation to disclose a past survey. Boats are not real estate so don’t try to apply RE rules to boats.

 

[BandB]

My SSO

Ethics are important to me and I think if a broker knows a material fact he should divulge that fact. I don’t know any case law about boat sales but many cases concerning real estate exist that show if a broker doesn’t divulge a material fact that can come back to haunt him later. I personally know of a case where the PO of a home was murdered in that house and that information was withheld from the new owner who sued and won damages.

Unfortunately, the laws regarding sellers of boats, cars or other items don't place the same rules on brokers as real estate laws do on real estate brokers.

I agree ethics do say you disclose major facts and you discuss that up front with the seller so they know you won't take the listing otherwise.

Another reason I suggest a buyer's broker.

Right now there are a lot of hurricane boats being resold with no disclosure. Sometimes the broker knows and sometimes they don't.

 

[Bigsfish]

Tilt

I think I made it clear this was my opinion about ethics and I think I made it clear that RE law is far different.

Sorry to confuse you.

 

[BruceK]

Bigfish, we have statute law which obliges Estate Agents/Brokers to disclosure something bad, like murder(s) at a house they offer.
I know there are good ethical brokers,I`ve met 2 out of around the 40 I dealt with. I would not expect a broker to divulge negatives, though a good salesman will disclose 1 or 2(lawyers call them "admissions against interest), so it looks he does, when really he does not. I would only expect to see a survey if it was on balance positive, boats are pretty much caveat emptor. I recently saw a hull pic which showed an osmosis blister and less clearly ? osmosis repair, but I think it was a case of a broker not checking the pic fully, rather than fulsome disclosure.

 

[tiltrider1]

Tilt

I think I made it clear this was my opinion about ethics and I think I made it clear that RE law is far different.

Sorry to confuse you.

Sorry if I sounded like I was attacking you. I was just trying to point out that one couldn’t expect the same type of protection.

 

[Derik]

The Broker texted me tonight saying he got the owner to have the fuel filters changed... I am guessing he felt bad or guilty. Anyway I like to think the best of people and if he was hiding something then oh well I need to do my due diligence on my own independent of what others have found.

 

[BandB]

Whether anyone is hiding anything or not, there's always the possibility of something they don't know about. That's why you assume nothing.

 

[BruceK]

... I like to think the best of people and if he was hiding something then oh well I need to do my due diligence on my own independent of what others have found.

It`s good to have an earlier survey,as a starting point,and to compare to your own. It can lead you to a failed purchase, or some other reason why it was done. All good information as you assess the boat. Sometimes useful in terms of negotiation if you know the boat`s history,both generally and in relation to the marketing. If other buyers walked,or had concerns, the seller may more readily accept price adjustment.

 

[Derik]

I will have the engines run through their paces, oil analysis, full out of water survey and go from there. Let me know if I forgot anything.

I think that a boat this size with this equipment if it checks out is a pretty decent deal. I don't necessarily like the whole transaction process but my last boat was new and it was 24 ft.

 

[Comodave]

When you are looking at a boat of this age, you have to expect that there will be problems. What you have to determine is are you willing to buy the boat and take on the job of fixing the problems or not. I can accept almost anything if I want the boat, but I have many many years working on boats and not a lot would discourage me. But I cannot decide for you what challenges you are willing to take on. Based on the info from that previous surveys the boat doesn’t appear too bad for its age. Anyway good luck and I hope it works out for you.