Simpler way to describe locations at sea?

[Eastsounder]

I did quote the company's website and perhaps didn't make that clear enough. The bit I quoted just seemed like a reasonable and concise explanation for why they're doing what they're doing, and I guess I was too lazy to paraphrase.

Everything I know about this outfit is based on spending about 30 minutes, total, poking around on their website and playing with their iOS app. I didn't mean to sound promotional. I was trying to inject additional information and perspective in replying to posts that seemed to me to be perfunctorily dismissive.

 

[ksanders]

Personally I don't think the concept does a darn thing that our current system doesn't do.

Complete waste of time. I'll never get the 10 minutes back that I spent reading about it.

Like others I question the motivations of anybody trying to advocate for this unneeded system.

 

[Peter B]

C'mon guys, lighten up. Eastsounder merely came upon an idea he heard about, that has some merit in certain circumstances, and just gave us a heads up. It does not threaten us and what and how we do things whatsoever, so no need to get het up really.

Funnily enough, the very ubiquitous existence these days of the mobile phone, (GPS capable) all over the planet, and in the most surprising places, as others have mentioned, appears to me to be the obvious solution to this very issue that this company, what3words, were trying to address, so already it has become a problem that no longer exists. Someone in darkest Africa having no address is already solved right there - with the GPS in a mobile phone.

Back when only ocean going vessels and aeroplanes had real navigation equipment, latitude and longitude readings were not much help elsewhere, especially on land. In the UK, for instance, as there are so many places out in the country with no address, what you do is program in the postcode in the GPS and usually it will take you with a few yards of where they are. We found that very helpful with caravan parks etc. But huge parts of the world do not have a post code - they all have a GPS position using good old lat. and long. Nowhere on this planet is out of sight of the navigational satellites, are they. Food for thought..? So, instead of a number address, a remote villager in any country, or buried in a city, merely has to know his GPS position. Just numbers - no language issue. Too easy..?

 

[BandB]

He seems upset. Justifiably or not? To be fair, what information did you have for:
"You're here to push your company and act as if you just ran across this or something. Basically advertising without paying for it, it seems to me."

Alternatively, does: "If I'm wrong about your involvement, I'll apologize" now operate?

He says he has no involvement so I'll take him at his word and I apologize. Earlier he seemed to have ignored my question in that regard plus was parroting their arguments and pushing so hard.

Now as to the company, I still see it as reinventing the wheel. Now they are using a square wheel now on some skateboards so it can be done I guess. It just seems to me for pinpointing a location, numbers are better than words and you have an existing system upon which you could build.

Also the current system is free and at some point theirs will not be. I don't think they'll get the buy-in they hope for to go to a proprietary system that they control. Their intent is to make a system they own and control the world standard. And it doesn't work without complete buy-in. Being on an address system such as theirs would not work if all companies, countries, or entities didn't choose to be a part of it.

 

[Baker]

they all have a GPS position using good old lat. and long. Nowhere on this planet is out of sight of the navigational satellites, are they. Food for thought..? So, instead of a number address, a remote villager in any country, or buried in a city, merely has to know his GPS position. Just numbers - no language issue. Too easy..?

While nowhere on this planet are out of sight of satellites, there are limitations to the lat/lon system. Those limitations increase as you near the poles. Think about it. All lat/lon converges on one single point....the poles. The only reason I bring this up is we fly polar routes to get to the other side of the world. If we just relied on lat/lon, things would get screwed up. So there is a type of a grid system that is put into the aircraft's flight management computer to deal with this issue over the poles. So there is merit to a grid system as each grid "panel" in the lat/lon system is not uniform in size as you get near the poles and they become basically useless. Because of this, certain aircraft have certain limitations as to the max latitude they can fly. But that is not likely to affect most of what we use lat/lon for. Just something that I thought I would bring up since there is a grid system already in place for navigation of aircraft over the poles that does not use lat/lon solely.

 

[O C Diver]

Have spent a lot of time traveling to spots on the featureless ocean to drop an anchor on a specific spot on a shipwreck. The current system displayed in a North South East West grid works extremely well and allows me to routinely drop my anchor in a 20' x 20' box. Would this system replicate the size of that box with 3 words? If you're trying to give people addresses in third world countries, seems like you would need to be this precise.

I agree with the statement that this is solution looking for a problem.

Ted

 

[Bay Pelican]

The lat/long system is actually fairly simple and allows non-professionals such as I to have an idea about where someone is talking. Think of it, if I say 145 degrees west, or 20 degrees east, or 30 north, 40 south you have an idea of where that is. Would be different with the three word system. Would need a computer or a manual to know where "destiny bravo" was.

 

[Larry M]

Grids are also used in HF radio, although different, for approximate locations. We use them in a propagation program for Airmail. They are also used for contests. The best accuracy you're going get with these grids is about 3 x 4 miles which for what we are using them for is fine. Here's a brief description on these grids and a pic from our propagation program.

Grid Squares

 

[Art]

Sounds like a solution in search of a problem.

Well put D & S

Reason I post here is not only to thank you on succinct definition of circumstance... but... also so I am in link to this thread so I get opp to see all RT's vid-punches!

Happy Coordinate Daze! - Art

 

[Ski in NC]

Would be nice to get some standardization for expressing lat/lon. Charts often are deg/min/sec, some gps show deg/min/decimal minute. Gots to be careful with the punctuation, it matters.

 

[caltexflanc]

I understand the motivation and idea, but the big problem for me is it is completely non-intuitive and random. You have to have a decoder as there is no way of inferring what address is near another. At least with GPS you know if you're in the neighborhood,and it can be used on a simple paper map. It runs off the GPS systems and uses that to locate.. kind of redundant and can't get my head around the randomness... Ok I know you are at xxx.xxx.xxx, how do I get there? Use GPS or a map! I'll be interested to see what it actually gets used for.

 

[Eastsounder]

He says he has no involvement so I'll take him at his word and I apologize. ...
Now as to the company, I still see it as reinventing the wheel. ...

Accepted.

You (and others) could very well be right that this system won't find enough traction to gain widespread use -- especially on the featureless ocean, where navigation by lat/long is the long-established norm. The company seems to recognize this, as I didn't find any explicit mention of marine applications on my brief exploration of their website.

Whatever the merits (or lack thereof) of this particular system, I still think the basic idea of creating a universal addressing system that's a bit more user-friendly than lat/long has merit in some easily conceivable circumstances. Especially emergencies.

I can imagine using it, for example, when my wife and I have gone ashore in a bustling little port town. She goes off shopping while I go dock-walking. When it's time to rendezvous, she can ring me up and say something like "flame, remit, mineral" instead of "the second clothing boutique on the left on that street where the t-shirt shop is, you know, before you get to the ice cream place." And I'll know just where she is, rather than bumbling around trying to find the right t-shirt shop.

Granted, there are other GPS-based mobile apps that would also allow us to find each other with minimal fuss. But three words doesn't seem like a bad alternative -- at least to me, speaking strictly personally and with a sworn lack of any commercial bias.

 

[clynn]

Buy your wife an iPhone and use Find My Phone. She is the blue dot on the screen. Problem solved.

 

[caltexflanc]

Buy your wife an iPhone and use Find My Phone. She is the blue dot on the screen. Problem solved.

Don't need an iPhone; plenty of Android apps do the same thing, will even give you directions from your location.

 

[clynn]

Don't need an iPhone; plenty of Android apps do the same thing, will even give you directions from your location.

Well there you go. Three words to find your wife in port:

go.buy.smartphone

or

download.location.app

 

[RT Firefly]

"Cancel, credit, card" She'll find you-Guaranteed!

 

[No Mast]

ok so admittedly I haven't read the entire thread, but how do you measure distance with this system? say i wan to go from where,hell,amI to beer,over,here? how would that work?

 

[Baker]

I do understand where he's coming from. The USCG in our area always sends out PAN PAN alerts about a sinking boat or fire,etc. and then the fire off the coordinates. That is basically useless unless you chart it out. I will always ask if they can provide a geographical location...and they usually do. Now I don't know if this particular system would help. But I understand the need to get things beyond a bunch of numbers.

 

[Eastsounder]

ok so admittedly I haven't read the entire thread, but how do you measure distance with this system? say i wan to go from where,hell,amI to beer,over,here? how would that work?

Great question. In search of an answer, I opened the app on my phone and typed in beer.over.here. No results. I tried some variations on the beer-seeking theme. Still no results.

So I got pretty random and tried glass.waiting.drink. Voila! A red pin appeared in the middle of the Southern Ocean, west of the Antarctic Peninsula, not far from the Antarctic Circle.

Next, on the app, I chose the Compass screen. A red directional indicator appeared. It pointed slightly east of straight south (compass bearing ~175 deg.). The distance given from my present location to glass.waiting.drink was 12,930 km.

That would be a long way to go for an ice-cold beverage! But, once I had my destination fixed, it wasn't hard to find out which way to go, or how far.

 

[CaptTom]

OK, I'm willing to listen to new ideas. But I still don't get it.

With a quick glance at my GPS, I can tell exactly how many nautical miles (aka, minutes of latitude) North or South I am from a position broadcast over the radio. With a little more thought (at 45 degrees N latitude, 1 minute of longitude = 1/2 NM) I can figure out how far East or West I am. I can even estimate a course to steer and an ETA, to be refined along the way.

But if I hear you're sinking at "little.fuzzy.bunnies" and I'm at "glass.waiting.drink", what good is that? I need technology to translate. So why not just let the technology use lat/lon?

 

[psneeld]

OK, I'm willing to listen to new ideas. But I still don't get it.

With a quick glance at my GPS, I can tell exactly how many nautical miles (aka, minutes of latitude) North or South I am from a position broadcast over the radio. With a little more thought (at 45 degrees N latitude, 1 degree of longitude = 1/2 NM) I can figure out how far East or West I am. I can even estimate a course to steer and an ETA, to be refined along the way.

But if I hear you're sinking at "little.fuzzy.bunnies" and I'm at "glass.waiting.drink", what good is that? I need technology to translate. So why not just let the technology use lat/lon?

Exactly.....

The current system is much more adaptable to programs that can figure things out....however...with a secret decoder ring...any pat long becomes a useless sting of words..but fortunately the decoder ring can change it back.

The tech is here...GPS well established...the problem isn't with labels...it is with pushing a button or two and instantly knowing where you are and where to go....

OMG!!!!! How many devices already out there already have you as the blue dot and all you have to do is talk and it gives you directions where to go. Many of those devices already have translators for many languages.

Nope....the new system is headed off in the wrong direction...the emphasis is on locating and directing...not labeling.

And Baker if you read this....you just fly over the poles...I have actually been on the ground/ice at both....don't worry about delivering packages within a couple meters in a grid.....AIN'T NOBODY HOME!!!!

 

[tpbrady]

Baker,

I agree with you on the USCG broadcasts. They really need to tie the coordinates to geography. The Canadians generally do that pretty well but you can tell the people that handle their communications centers are lifers as opposed to the first termers that routinely do primary monitor in the US, at least that's my impression from my side of the radio. The three word label wouldn't help that unless the words were not randomly assigned but followed a given longitude/latitude so one grid could be related to a nearby grid by word association.

Tom

 

[psneeld]

Baker,

I agree with you on the USCG broadcasts. They really need to tie the coordinates to geography. The Canadians generally do that pretty well but you can tell the people that handle their communications centers are lifers as opposed to the first termers that routinely do primary monitor in the US, at least that's my impression from my side of the radio. The three word label wouldn't help that unless the words were not randomly assigned but followed a given longitude/latitude so one grid could be related to a nearby grid by word association.

Tom

I agree...When I had a radio room/operations center under my supervision...I would press them to try to include a "local" vicinity in the broadcast as soon as possible but not "too" local as some guys had nicknames for places that only 5 people ever heard of...

I also tried to get them to slow WAYYYYY down when reading geographical coordinates.... kinda like when someone leaves you a phone message and they speak like a sloth till their number comes up and they turn into a speed talker.

Obviously didn't catch on....but I had fun while I was the boss for a few years...

Most people would be amazed at how few US Coasties have significant small, recreational boating experience.....

 

[Moonstruck]

In Tennessee we were way ahead on describing locations on the 3 word system. It is amazing how few 3 words are needed to describe locations. Such locations as "over yonder ways", go north and "keep on gettinit". and "way over there" cover a "whole bunch of locations". It just took "a spell" for others to catch up. Seems we are always ahead of the curve.

 

[psneeld]

Oh boy...watch out in Ft Pierce this Ferbruary....sounds like somebody is already cranked up for fun...

 

[Ski in NC]

I agree...When I had a radio room/operations center under my supervision...I would press them to try to include a "local" vicinity in the broadcast as soon as possible but not "too" local as some guys had nicknames for places that only 5 people ever heard of...

I also tried to get them to slow WAYYYYY down when reading geographical coordinates.... kinda like when someone leaves you a phone message and they speak like a sloth till their number comes up and they turn into a speed talker.

Obviously didn't catch on....but I had fun while I was the boss for a few years...

Most people would be amazed at how few US Coasties have significant small, recreational boating experience.....

No kidding. A CG assist broadcast is usually way lacking in decent information. I imagine there are legalese reasons for all they include, but many time they left me shaking my head.

It would be nice if they gave a general position, say "10 nm SE of Wrightville Beach Jetty" then say "coordinates to follow after description of vessel." That way if I'm reasonably close, I can scrounge up a pen.

Almost as frustrating as the silly weather radio, repeating identical forecasts for different parts of the coast and for different days. Ad nauseum.

How about "For next two days, winds S to SE 10-15kts, seas 2-3ft from Cape Lookout to Cape Romain". Done. Instead have to listen to same stuff repeated for each day and for each region. Split it up if conditions are different or changing.

 

[sunchaser]

Without boring you guys with the extraneous details, the billion dollar per day freight forwarding business globally tracks many things, particularly containers and break bulk that have been bar coded and has an onboard tracking device. This cargo can be hauled by barge, ship, truck or air conveyances.

This practice has been going on for many decades and has ever so much benefitted construction projects making them simpler and yet providing more scheduling details. The cargo and goods transponders with requisite bar codes are uploaded to a satellite and then back down to the users, schedulers, shippers, trackers and suppliers. This permits location, speed, direction and safety status to be known.

I've managed these activities both directly and peripherally through others on large mining projects that entailed tracking thousands of containers and their contents. Ditto break bulk parts and pieces , trucks, shovels dozers, fixed equipment and electrical gear. How was this tracking done? You got it, using proprietary software developed by companies akin to what Eastsounder has mentioned.

This myriad of equipment had specific delivery dates so the individual construction areas could proceed in a carefully controlled manner and fit into the correct build sequence. In essence spatial tracking utilizing sophisticated programs with specific algorithms were used to load ships sequentially, unload and store and then ship to the job site.

I have no idea how the data that bounces off the satellites onto a central processor or a field laptop is generated, whether using pure lat lon or some other coordinates. But I can tell you the tracking business is huge, vital and necessary.

So thank you Eastsounder for raising a topic that far transcends the recreational boating business.

 

[BruceK]

"Cancel, credit, card" She'll find you-Guaranteed!

Reminded of a guy interviewed on TV news after his wife had been held up and her handbag stolen. "I`m glad she`s ok, not worried about our credit card in her bag, it`s safer in the hands of a thief."

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Too many systems. Multiple ways to measure and describe THE SAME DAMN THING! For example https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Units_of_Measurement/Pressure
Standardize people!
Was in NAPA a while back. One of the associates was assisting a customer beside me. "Does that water pump have standard or metric sized bolts?" "Oh, I don't know anything about that metric business, it's foolish" "OK ma'am, what size is the engine?"....Wait for it....3 liter.
"Up over yonder" is more accurate than teacup, snowflake, gnu to someone without the translation primer.
Lat and Long work. As mentioned, Arabic numbers are recognized and used worldwide. Good grief!

 

[Eastsounder]

All I can say is, I never knew logistics could be so cool!