Sitting in the mud for a hurricane?

[ERTF]

Living is south florida, i'm always on the lookout for hurricane holes. Particularly hurricane holes where i do not have to worry about other boats dragging into me.

I got my eyes on a spot in the mangroves so obscure and out of the way that I expect I would be the only soul there. Problem is i scouted it with my skiff depth finder and at low tide it is only 2-3ft. Our tides are usually about 2ft.

I've heard old salts on sailboats talking about burying their keels in the mud for storms. I'm wondering if that would be ok for my boat or if it would be too much pressure on my shafts/rudders? I have a 4ft draft twin screw Marine Trader 44 cpmy, which is essentially the 40 in the photo (but with a 4ft cockpit).

I need to go back to the spot with a boat pole and see if the mud is that real loose/soft/silty quicksand material that is often back in those holes, or if it's more of a medium density mud.

I am on the east coast -- not sure if we get those extreme negative tides from hurricanes like are common on the west coast? Considering the location is an oxbox on a tidal creek, I would generally expect higher tides during storm, but want to consider the possibility of a negative tide anomally. Regardless, i would have to get back there before the storm, so I'm guaranteed to be sitting 2 ft in the mud at low tide at least for a few cycles.

What are your opinions -- specifically about sitting in the mud?

 

[psneeld]

One thing to watch is will the boat stay pretty much upright?

I have seen many a grounded boat heel over and as the tide/surge comes in, the boat progressively floods and becomes a salvage job.

I also don't suggest highly exposed props and shafts (usually twins) to the intentional grounding. Though some running gear damage is preferable to major damage...but again if bad enough to affect stuffing boxes, the flooding issue can be bad.

Bottom line is ......many Florida old timers swear by the mangrove sanctuary idea...but they are the ones that survived the concept, not the ones who wound up losing their boats.... so knowing what they know...not just the concept is critical.

Also...don't necessarily count on assistance towing if you need help getting out of there.... they can be busy for months after a storm.

 

[O C Diver]

My concern in addition to rudders, shafts, and propellers, would be wind blockage. If the tide rises, do the mangroves offer significant wind block? Do you have enough swing room on the hook? Wouldn't want to get broadside and pushed into shallow water, requiring a salvage operation to remove the boat. Also would be concerned about tripping the boat on its chine, capsizing it.

Ted

 

[ERTF]

My concern in addition to rudders, shafts, and propellers, would be wind blockage. If the tide rises, do the mangroves offer significant wind block? Do you have enough swing room on the hook? Wouldn't want to get broadside and pushed into shallow water, requiring a salvage operation to remove the boat. Also would be concerned about tripping the boat on its chine, capsizing it.

Ted

Wouldnt be swinging on an anchor (anchor is useless in that quicksand anyway). Would be tied to the mangroves from all side. It is back in a nook 120ft wide. Longest fetch 400ft, all 3 other sides only 50ft.

 

[psneeld]

Old timers I knew would bury it deeper into the mangroves.... some stretches are pretty deep into the nooks and the trees are then only feet away. Course the skeeters will kill ya but it's the boat you are worried about

Good news about mangrove hiding is.... even the boats that wind up in the trees are less damaged than those in marinas (scratches versus holes) and salvage from trees or mud flat can be easier than off hard land or sunk.

 

[motion30]

Living is south florida, i'm always on the lookout for hurricane holes. Particularly hurricane holes where i do not have to worry about other boats dragging into me.

I got my eyes on a spot in the mangroves so obscure and out of the way that I expect I would be the only soul there. Problem is i scouted it with my skiff depth finder and at low tide it is only 2-3ft. Our tides are usually about 2ft.

I've heard old salts on sailboats talking about burying their keels in the mud for storms. I'm wondering if that would be ok for my boat or if it would be too much pressure on my shafts/rudders? I have a 4ft draft twin screw Marine Trader 44 cpmy, which is essentially the 40 in the photo (but with a 4ft cockpit).

I need to go back to the spot with a boat pole and see if the mud is that real loose/soft/silty quicksand material that is often back in those holes, or if it's more of a medium density mud.

I am on the east coast -- not sure if we get those extreme negative tides from hurricanes like are common on the west coast? Considering the location is an oxbox on a tidal creek, I would generally expect higher tides during storm, but want to consider the possibility of a negative tide anomally. Regardless, i would have to get back there before the storm, so I'm guaranteed to be sitting 2 ft in the mud at low tide at least for a few cycles.

What are your opinions -- specifically about sitting in the mud?

Not sure exactly where you are located but if you can get up into the shark River you can have the protection of the mangroves, safety from other boats and still reasonable water. But of course the bugs are the same situation

 

[LovetoBoat]

My two cents - if you sit in mud so are your raw water intakes and any other thru hull valve. I would not do that - my previous owner has sucked up enough mud and sand to know that is not good in your hoses and intakes. Good Luck either way.

 

[ERTF]

My two cents - if you sit in mud so are your raw water intakes and any other thru hull valve. I would not do that - my previous owner has sucked up enough mud and sand to know that is not good in your hoses and intakes. Good Luck either way.

I dont think 2 feet would be quite up to the intakes, but even if it was, I obviously wouldnt be running the engines when the props are buried.

 

[High Wire]

How do you plan to get in and out? Can you wait for high tide before? What if someone beats you to the spot? Plan B, C, and D?

 

[ERTF]

How do you plan to get in and out? Can you wait for high tide before? What if someone beats you to the spot? Plan B, C, and D?

High tide.

Very unlikely I would have any competition, which is why I like the spot. And I could go days in advance because it is a dead end.

 

[ERTF]

I can handle all the other contingincies, I'm really just looking for input on the mud aspect.

It seems like if its that super soft silty quicksand mud then it really wouldn't cause much verticle pressure on the shafts. Maybe the concern would be for the rudders if the boat is violently shimmying side to side, or else the props if the boat is surging fore and aft.

If it's more of a medium density mud that could cause more bending/flexing, but in that case the keel might not allow the boat to sink very deep. I will go back at low tide with a boat pole and something wide/flat, and see how it feels.

 

[O C Diver]

As far as settling into the mud, you might want to probe it with a rod. I would also be concerned about what's a foot under the mud. You might find a tree trunk or other object that either bends stuff or lists the boat over. Would also like to know if there's rock or coral to abraid the hull.

Ted

 

[Mambo42]

I have seen the devastation of quite a few hurricanes during my time flying in the Caribbean. The worst one was in the beginning of the 90's and I saw motor- and sailing yachts 200 meters land inwards after the hurricane had passed.
It is the storm surge that you need to worry about and the combination of the storm surge plus sustained 100+ kts winds is what does the damage.

Is there a 100 % safe way to survive a cat 3 to cat 5 hurricane ?
The only thing I can think of is to get out of the way and that means move the boat to an area where the hurricane is not going to come.
One thing to realize is that every hurricane will lose strength once it makes land fall. The further land inward you can get the more chance you have to survive and obviously the storm surge will be negligent.

Are mangroves a good place to hide ?
Some people say yes, but the island of Carriacou just proved it is not a good place. Also in Roosevelt Roads (Puerto Rico) a lot of boats had tied up to the mangroves and all of them were destroyed.

If I would have to go through a hurricane I think I would rather go for a lake with about 10' deep, 150 mtr of chain, room to swing and two anchors, two snubbers and let the boat swing in the storm. And I would want to be alone in that location, don't want to get hit by boats that broke loose or started dragging.
There are videos on Youtube of people who did exactly that and all of them came through.

 

[psneeld]

As I said about mangrove hiding...the ones that lose their boat or lives usually don't post info or videos about it.

For every boating success story, no matter what the issue...there is always the "others" side of the story.

Why? many ask.... probably because yards, minutes, knots, marlinspike, line, chain, etc, etc matter sometimes... and those minor differences are not always planned ahead.

Yes, the best advice is to be at least 100 miles from where the eye makes landfall or be in a hurricane hole of nearly perfect attributes (and really know what you are doing).

 

[ERTF]

Are mangroves a good place to hide ?
Some people say yes, but the island of Carriacou just proved it is not a good place. Also in Roosevelt Roads (Puerto Rico) a lot of boats had tied up to the mangroves and all of them were destroyed.

Carriacou doesn't "prove" anything, except my original point, which is to go to a location where other boats are not. Also there is a vast difference between a mangrove lagoon where you can only tie up on 1 side vs a mangrove creek/canal where you are tied up on both sides + more wind protection.

 

[Mambo42]

Yes, the best advice is to be at least 100 miles from where the eye makes landfall or be in a hurricane hole of nearly perfect attributes (and really know what you are doing).

That is indeed the best way to get through a hurricane, get your boat out of the way and that could indeed mean going North for those who live in Florida. If you are in the Caribbean consider going to the lesser Antilles (Curacao, Bonaire and Aruba) where you are outside of the hurricane belt.

If there is no need to ride out a hurricane, don't try.

 

[slowgoesit]

That's why we purchased a house, well, really, purchased a DOCK that came with a house in Florida that is just about as far away from the coast as you can get in Florida.
Historically, hurricanes have tended to have lost much of their strength before getting here.
From the East, or West, you have to traverse at least two locks, so storm surge is a non issue.
We are in a neighborhood of small canals, so fetch is also not an issue, no distance to build up wind waves. Surrounding terrain is about 10 to 11 feet above water level as well. Bollards on shore to secure boat to.
It's just about as good as it gets. The only real concern we have is for damage from flying debris, say a roof comes off of a house, etc. But that is more liable to cause out of water damage rather than major damage or sinking.

 

[Blissboat]

Tying off to mangrove roots in a sheltered oxbow is a great tactic, used by the old timers back when Florida's coastline still had plenty of mangroves and undisturbed oxbows. But those old-timers had less sensitive running gear to worry about grounding out in the mud on a falling tide. In post #12 above, Ted mentioned my concern, which would be what's buried in the soft mud right beneath where your prop, shaft strut or rudder settles and tries to bear the weight of your stern. Maybe a deadhead (old log), or a chunk of limestone, which is the substrate on both coasts of South Florida. As the OP notes, some careful probing of the bottom might help relieve that worry, to some extent. It's also possible to find an oxbow with a few deep spots here and there - the ideal solution.

The other consideration is that once the tide falls, the boat bottoms out resting on one chine, leaving it unable to right itself easily as the returning tidal water tries to float it off. That nearly happened to me once in a 42' Grand Banks, when I had anchored in deep water and went ashore for a few hours, returning to discover that the boat had swung toward shallower water as the tide was going out. The boat was aground and listing toward the side where the water was deep. I really did not like my odds if the angle of list increased. My starboard shaft and rudder were already touching the mud, so powering off was not an option. I wound up using the dinghy to carry the stern anchor out to deeper water. Led the rode back aboard through a stern hawsehole, then up to the forward anchor windlass and used its power to gently kedge the stern off. (I think there was some adrenaline involved, also). The incident ended well, but I have never forgotten the lessons.

 

[psneeld]

Forgot to add before, mangroves in Florida may be protected by law. I know homeowners have strict regulations about them...not sure how tying to them works out anymore...though I thing I did see a few boats tied to them in the ocean approach to Boot Key Harbor in Marathon.

 

[ERTF]

Forgot to add before, mangroves in Florida may be protected by law. I know homeowners have strict regulations about them...not sure how tying to them works out anymore...though I thing I did see a few boats tied to them in the ocean approach to Boot Key Harbor in Marathon.

I've heard that it's illegal to tie to them, however can find no evidence whether that is fact or myth. Does anybody know?

Either way, if there's a hurricane, I will take my chances. But that's why I favor this hole, it's in an untraficked area where I'm very unlikely to be bothered.

 

[LovetoBoat]

Seems you have made up your mind - so why ask? Is there anything that would change your mind? It does not sound like it - let us know how you fair.

 

[psneeld]

Sometimes one has no "good" choices, only choices.

Forums rarely provide enough info or advice that totally encompasses the OP's question, problem or decision.

Forums are a good way to find tidbits that may lead you to MUCH better info than what is provided in threads.... which can be invaluable. Sometimes there are people with nearly the same situation and that one tidbit of advice, not 90% of what is posted, is of use for the OP. Doesn't mean the 90% is totally useless, just in this particular issue...but may be valuable to many others.

Much of the time, posters toss out their experiences (whether pertinent or not) and it seems the OP has already made up their minds...that is often true but there is always the chance of that golden nugget that may change their minds or improve their decision. So as long as a post isn't too far off, it may be useful to someone.

So forums march on....

If all you want is people slobbering over your piece of the world, go to Facebook (particular forum groups can be different)...they will smother you with likes, how cute, amazing even when you are committing a felony.....

 

[ERTF]

Seems you have made up your mind - so why ask? Is there anything that would change your mind? It does not sound like it - let us know how you fair.

Huh? Made up my mind about what? I was never asking about mangroves, I was asking about sitting in the mud -- and I'm still undecided aboit that.

As far as I can see, mangroves are really the only option for me. In a 7 knot boat you can not predictably out run these things in Florida --with the exception of spending the season in ft myers or stuart and crossing the canal (and even that wasn't predictable enough for Irma). The annual ransom to gaurantee a haul out is a non starter where i am. And I'm not in a marina, but even if I was, alot of dockmasters recommend or even require boats to leave for a hurricane.

So yes, for me, the mangroves are the clear option. The critical part is to locate the ideal location and be there 1st. After that, there is obviously luck involved regardless of whether you are on a dock, anchor, mangroves, or even a yard (see Carriacou).

 

[fgarriso]

Your best chance of surviving the storm is getting on the hard with the boat properly tied down. Everything else is just a crap shoot.

 

[psneeld]

On the hard is only good if you are really on the hard. If a marina (like my last one in NJ) becomes awash and all bets are off.

Had damage to some boats in the yard during Sandy and Sandy technically wasn't even a cane when it came ashore. None of the boats that stayed in the water were damaged.

As so many things in boating (I know that annoys some here on TF)....but...."IT DEPENDS".......

 

[cafesport]

I dont think you’ll need to worry much about sitting in mud as the surge will lift your boat up and probably place where it will be impossible to retrieve. Irma put 10’ of water over my home dock destroyed the marina at dinner key and put Brickell avenue under 4’ of water.

 

[ERTF]

I dont think you’ll need to worry much about sitting in mud as the surge will lift your boat up and probably place where it will be impossible to retrieve. Irma put 10’ of water over my home dock destroyed the marina at dinner key and put Brickell avenue under 4’ of water.

Sounds like you don't understand how the mangrove tie ups work. Long lines allow the boat to rise with the surge. In fact, I know multiple people in miami that survived irma without issue in the mangroves.

However, I'm not here to convince anybody of anything...but if you want to talk to me like I'm a shmuck then I guess I'll chime in with facts.

 

[psneeld]

Don't sweat it, you were pretty specific in your original post for those that understand the dynamics of what you are trying to do and trying to avoid.

You are right to be concerned about the negative tide with hurricane offshore winds...they can drain any shallows pretty quick....

I have heard that the deeper waters of the Atlantic side tend to realize less storm surge...but haven't heard much about negative tides there. My personal guess is that the blow out tides may occur even though the opposite (surge) is not as much as the West coast because of the near offshore areas are very shallow on the West side..

 

[ERTF]

Don't sweat it, you were pretty specific in your original post for those that understand the dynamics of what you are trying to do and trying to avoid.

You are right to be concerned about the negative tide with hurricane offshore winds...they can drain any shallows pretty quick....

I have heard that the deeper waters of the Atlantic side tend to realize less storm surge...but haven't heard much about negative tides there. My personal guess is that the blow out tides may occur even though the opposite (surge) is not as much as the West coast because of the near offshore areas are very shallow on the West side..

Thanks man, you've always been a helpful person when I've made a post on here.

 

[psneeld]