Size-based maintenance cost differences between boats.

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Our chippest boat to maintain

was our former "long-cours62"


Basic 2 Perkins engines no electronic ( if we was younger we will built a similar boat but single engine)
No generator
No AC
Heated by wood heater
no paint on the hull
Rarely in Marina may be 1 1/2 year for 16 year...
Watermaker fitted but never used (fill up the tanks when...raining :) if new boat may be a basic survivor "just in case".
Small draft and flat bottom alloy to go in very shallow and free place and in tide area you could clean 80% of your "bottom" for free

AND very low comsumption :)
 

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Why would the engine speed up or slow down?

To time a bridge opening, to comply with no wake and manatee zones, so you don't drive up the ass of the line of boats waiting to get past that damn sailboat motoring at 5 knots in the middle of the channel with their radio off, and pretty much the entire Erie, Champlain, Trent-Severn, and Rideau canal systems are a few reasons that come to mind.
 
I'd rather install a couple 250A alternators on one of the mains for about half the cost of a 5Kw genset, and use them as the under way and backup generator.

If you go to my TF page there's a photo gallery of pictures from adding a second alternator to my John Deere. The Leece Neville 220 amp continuous duty alternator with the my inverter is equivalent to about a 3KW generator. It cuts my generator time down to about 150 hours per year in 8 months of cruising.

Ted
 
I forgot that beyond complexity of systems, there is the complexity of how people cruise.

Add those two together and trying to describe the perfect boat is like explaining the meaning of life. Putting a price tag on it is a exercise in frustration.

Pick a boat, name the systems aboard and describe a cruise and a guesstimate would be possible.

Example- approximate the cost of maintaining a 40 foot xxx with ......... systems anchoring/ marina hopping in the xxxxx Islands or doing the American loop ........ without major repairs over xx years if the maintenance is done by owner/ farmed out.

Even then the price tags vary by yard, supplier, region, quality.......
 
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Well, as somone who actually has a largish boat I'll go against the opinion here and say the bigger boat can be cheaper with a couple of caveats

One of those is actually using the boat
.

As full time cruisers we don't pay for a marina
Nor do we have to pay for a house to live in or a car
That money saved more than covers the cost of our vessel and mostly paid for maintenance

Also, pick the right boat and you don't need half the things you mention

We are 60 ft
* Single engine
* Single Genset but rarely used as plenty of roof space for solar
* No air con - we live cruise sub tropical to tropical but large overhangs , tinted windows and plenty of ventilation keeps her cool
* Water heater is a household 240 model, we are about to replace it with a smaller unit and they are $400.
* Appliances and multiple refrigeration are all household 240v so cheap to buy and replace and all run off of inverter/battery/solar
*2 heads - probably $30 in parts and a couple of hours to service in 6 years of usage
* Large tender yes but our 4.3m aluminium dory doesn't get damaged by sun or deflate and its size let's us anchor miles away and save fuel by using tender for reprovisioning
* Davits with cheap manual 3 speed trailer winches easily lift it + 30hp + battery + 25 litres of fuel from the water by myself, no hydraulic crane required.

Electronics, nav and entertainment need be as complex and expensive as you want them to be....or not
TV screens and monitors cost a couple of hundred $$
Lenovo tiny PC or similar to run nav also cost a couple of hundred $$
OpenCPN is free
It can also run all music, movies etc.and connect to the interwebs
None of our nav gear is integrated or networked with anything, all stand alone, all (apart from non essential radar) can be swapped out with a spare in under an hour

6 years out here full time, never needed a marina, wouldn't change a thing
Hardly typical of most boaters so pretty much irrelevant to the OP.
 
To time a bridge opening, to comply with no wake and manatee zones, so you don't drive up the ass of the line of boats waiting to get past that damn sailboat motoring at 5 knots in the middle of the channel with their radio off, and pretty much the entire Erie, Champlain, Trent-Severn, and Rideau canal systems are a few reasons that come to mind.

Thankfully there are no such issues where we cruise
And if there were, it would not be acticated

But, if they suddenly appeared surely a flick of the switch to deactivate the electric clutch/pulley
Or, I would think the inverter/ charger would deactivate itself as the rpm changed.
 
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Hardly typical of most boaters so pretty much irrelevant to the OP.

Not at all
You can follow the herd and say it can't be done because others can't

Or think for yourself and actually do it.
 
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Hardly typical of most boaters so pretty much irrelevant to the OP.

To the contrary, I did find that post more in line with our desires than out of line. We are looking to live/cruise full time with no houses, cars, or land-based financial obligations along for the ride. We would like to do what everyone else wants to do- winters in the Bahamas with summers in Maine or Georgian Bay up there in Canaderp. The only schedule we'd have would be dictated by hurricane season limitations set by the insurance company. Part of the allure of a boat is that we can truly get away from people, and stay away for an extended period of time. As such, we have no interest in coming anywhere close to a marina beyond the need to refuel and pump out. If we were looking to tie up to a dock every night, we might as well get an RV and live in KOA campgrounds.

We make a great team when turning wrenches and between the two of us, have every skillset needed to maintain a boat covered. Short of something requiring a haulout, very little, if any labor/yard fees will come up. But we do fully acknowledge that there are some things that are just better paying someone else to do (bottom paint) and some things we simply will not be able to do (straightening a prop or a shaft).

So there's the where and the who. Since it was brought up that specifics are in order to more accurately answer my original question, here's the what.

We're looking to do all this on a Hatteras, either a 43DC, 48YF, 53MY/ED/YF. So far, we've only looked at an ED and are not writing off the others, but damn, that was a REALLY nice boat.

I digress. As stated in the original post, I started to question the "bigger is more expensive" rule of thumb when I started to notice that these boats in particular are all very mechanically similar. Repowers excluded, 90% have Detroit 71 series, a few have 92 series and some of the 43 and 48's have VT903's. All have one, rarely two generators, a galley with mostly full size appliances, two or three heads, three or four AC units, ect. Basically, the biggest difference I've seen between those boats is the layout and size.

Hence, my question- taking out the expenses that vary depending on the size of the boat, is there really much of a difference in maintenance costs? I was guessing no because any given piece of equipment is going to require the same care regardless of what package it's in. But, I wanted to fact check my guess because it did go against conventional general wisdom. The gist I've picked up thus far is that my guess is more or less in line with reality... unless I completely misunderstood what all's been said here. :)
 
Thankfully there are no such issues where we cruise
And if there were, it would not be acticated

But, if they suddenly appeared surely a flick of the switch to deactivate the electric clutch/pulley
Or, I would think the inverter/ charger would deactivate itself as the rpm changed.

I may have not articulated myself properly... I'm not saying the CVT thing is a good idea. It might have been at the time but much better solutions exist now, so I can't imagine why anyone would keep one of those relics alive.
 
When you compare a 43 to a 53 you will see a sizable uptick in maintenance expense. It won’t be any one item that does it. You have 50% more bottom area. This means more paint, more labor, more zinc, bigger lines, bigger fenders, bigger chain, bigger windless, etc.

Inside the boat you will probably only see 20% more maintenance. While a lot of the systems are the same you will find bigger pumps, more pumps and more equipment. It’s the more equipment that drives the costs. A 53 is likely to be set up to run two 50a electrical buses instead of two 30a buses. This doubles the number of switches and more likely to use heavier switch equipment.

It’s like a death of a thousand paper cuts. They both have 3 bilge pumps but one is a 2000 and the other a 3500. They both have one fresh water pump but one is 3.5 gpm and the other is 6 gpm. They both have diesel heat but one is 6000 btu in 3 zones and one is 12,000 in 5 zonEs.

Now doing your own labor does dial back the maintenance difference considerably as you just knocked off 60% of the bill.

While you are not wrong with your logic you will find you are not right either. The question no one can answer is how much extra equipment you will add when you have the space. I never had a washer/dryer, a water maker, heat pumps or stabilizers on my 42’, I do on my 54’. My genset is 10kw instead of 7kw, I have double the battery capacity, I have bigger windlass and thrusters.

I do all my own work so the maintenance bills aren’t too bad but I did all my own work on the 42. No doubt, my maintenance expense is some were between 50% more to double.

Do I care? No. Maintenance does go up with size.
 
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If you go to my TF page there's a photo gallery of pictures from adding a second alternator to my John Deere. The Leece Neville 220 amp continuous duty alternator with the my inverter is equivalent to about a 3KW generator. It cuts my generator time down to about 150 hours per year in 8 months of cruising.

Ted

Yep, that's about what the stuff I've done looks like with the exception of using the motor mount as the base plate for the accessory. You said it cut your generator usage down to 150 hours; how many hours were you running the generator for before you installed the alternator?
 
I may have not articulated myself properly... I'm not saying the CVT thing is a good idea. It might have been at the time but much better solutions exist now, so I can't imagine why anyone would keep one of those relics alive.

But I wasn't having a CVT thing at all
Just a generator head and an engine set at one speed for battery charge while on passage
There will be no loads cutting in and out so no change in rpm
Gen head will be powering large inverter charger so constant load.


Reality is, if we get rid of our 180 litre hot water system and replace with the 25 litre version, the difference in heating times will likely negate the need of a generator due to big solar array.

The Genset head on main engine is $500 vs $5000 for alts.

Whilst we can afford (now) to throw buckets of money at a solution it was not that way of thinking that let us retire early in life (-;
 
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When you compare a 43 to a 53 you will see a sizable uptick in maintenance expense. It won’t be any one item that does it. You have 50% more bottom area. This means more paint, more labor, more zinc, bigger lines, bigger fenders, bigger chain, bigger windless, etc.

Inside the boat you will probably only see 20% more maintenance. While a lot of the systems are the same you will find bigger pumps, more pumps and more equipment. It’s the more equipment that drives the costs. A 53 is likely to be set up to run two 50a electrical buses instead of two 30a buses. This doubles the number of switches and more likely to use heavier switch equipment.

It’s like a death of a thousand paper cuts. They both have 3 bilge pumps but one is a 2000 and the other a 3500. They both have one fresh water pump but one is 3.5 gpm and the other is 6 gpm. They both have diesel heat but one is 6000 btu in 3 zones and one is 12,000 in 5 zonEs.

Now doing your own labor does dial back the maintenance difference considerably as you just knocked off 60% of the bill.

While you are not wrong with your logic you will find you are not right either. The question no one can answer is how much extra equipment you will add when you have the space. I never had a washer/dryer, a water maker, heat pumps or stabilizers on my 42’, I do on my 54’. My genset is 10kw instead of 7kw, I have double the battery capacity, I have bigger windlass and thrusters.

I do all my own work so the maintenance bills aren’t too bad but I did all my own work on the 42. No doubt, my maintenance expense is some were between 50% more to double.

Do I care? No. Maintenance does go up with size.

Those are all great points, and your examples of the pumps and HVAC units does paint a very clear picture as I just took a quick look at the price differences on West Marine. Given the number of variables and the impossibility of accounting for them all, I think the question I should have asked instead is,

How much would you suggest we need to clear a year after taxes to comfortably do what I've described we want to do on the boats I've mentioned? Insurance, mortgage, food/luxuries, retirement, medical expenses excluded. If it helps, we'd be looking at about 400 hours a year, but have been using 500 hours for our math so as to err on the high side. Because money can be a touchy subject, I don't want you to worry about offending me; I'd rather be hit with a brick of reality than a pillow of false assurance.
 
A boat no matter what size can be fitted out like an expensive mansion or a hunting lodge in the wilderness.

As you add systems you add everything from expensive control board failures to filters to general upkeep, etc, etc, and then more systems to support the other systems....

You can press for an answer but I wouldn't believe a one until you give a fairly specific answer to boat, systems and use.

Been around the block and seen too many way different answers here and on the docks to a generic question. probably why there are still answers without specific dollar amounts so far.
 
You can press for an answer but I wouldn't believe a one until you give a fairly specific answer to boat, systems and use.

Hatteras 53. 8V71TI, M20 gears, 20Kw generator, four reverse cycle AC units, full size appliances including separate washer and dryer, three heads, water maker, stabilizers. 400-500 hours a year at or below hull speed between Maine and the Bahamas, never over night at a marina, all work not requiring a haul out done ourselves.

Did I overlook anything? I'm not including upgrades to things like appliances and electronics because I'm assuming for the sake of simplicity, that they all work and meet our needs. I'm also not factoring in everything that will need to be fixed in the first year. What I'm looking for is, once the boat's baselined to a reliable state, excluding unforeseen expenses such as grounding, catastrophic failure, or any damage beyond normal wear and tear, what a safe approximate ballpark rough estimate of a yearly budget should be.

Are we talking $20k, or $100k? Nearest I can figure, it's around $40k a year, with another $20k in reserve for the unexpected that will roll over into the following year if unused.
 
Complexity of systems is a major factor.

Agree! Size and number/complexity of systems are the best predictors of operational costs. And that internet lore of 10% of purchase price that someone always has to throw out is a crock IMHO. :rolleyes:

If/when I transition back out of sail and return to trawler life, my boat purchase will be driven by the KISS principal in setup… and appropriate ACCESS to all those components for maintenance.
 
And that internet lore of 10% of purchase price that someone always has to throw out is a crock IMHO. :rolleyes:

I've never bought that in the least because if you have two of the same year/make/model boat, one sold for $200k and the other for $100k, by internet logic, the $100k boat should cost half of what the $200k boat should cost to maintain.

I don't even need to own a boat to expect the inverse on several orders of magnitude.
 
I have to say I think there is a mismatch between the use case and the boat. Nothing against the Hatteras, but for budget minded full time off grid snowbirding I don't think it would be on many top ten recommendations. Certainly not on mine.


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A boat no matter what size can be fitted out like an expensive mansion or a hunting lodge in the wilderness.

As you add systems you add everything from expensive control board failures to filters to general upkeep, etc, etc, and then more systems to support the other systems....

You can press for an answer but I wouldn't believe a one until you give a fairly specific answer to boat, systems and use.

Been around the block and seen too many way different answers here and on the docks to a generic question. probably why there are still answers without specific dollar amounts so far.

Yep
As an ex boatbuilder myself it always amazes me how over complex some boats are.
It's almost as if it was a conspiracy to keep the boat permanently tied to the maintenance dock with a hand in the owners pocket ;)
 
What would you suggest?

The only ones I have ever got really interested about are custom builds
Usually based on commercial vessel hulls or repurposed ex commercial
And often done as the boatbuilders/shipwrights own retirement vessel.

In a few decades of hunting I have seen but a few of these unicorns in the wild
We snared ours 6 years ago.
 
What would you suggest?
Now you've put me on the spot. Guess I should have expected that...

I'm doing pretty much what you've described, always unplugged and traveling >5k miles/yr. Not chasing the sun, but avoiding the worst of winter. Currently at anchor in Georgian Bay. My boat is 50' ex navy workboat refit for cruising. Single small diesel, robust electrical systems and diesel heat/hot water. Solar panels and big house bank. Big water and holding tanks. Good ground tackle. Capable dinghy on davits. Nice pilothouse. Lots of storage. No A/C. I have a genset but rarely use it.

The off grid living requirement is a big consideration IMO. That drives a lot of decisions around power generation and battery management, as well as cooking, hot water, and heating/cooling systems. You'll see lots of discussion here on those subjects.

Suggestions... How about a Grand Banks 42?



















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Suggestions... How about a Grand Banks 42?

Funny you mentioned that boat. We looked at one that was on the hard on the same day we looked at that 53ED Hatt. The GB42 we saw was a decent boat in great shape and priced very fairly, actually. Grand Banks has a well earned reputation and there's no denying they're capable cruisers, which is what put them on our list of must-sees.

Long story short, it works on paper and there were things we did like about it, but was a hard pass for us for a number of reasons- the double birth master, the trunk cabin (I'm only 5'8" and I'd bang my head on that overhang every time I got out of bed), the small salon/galley, the camper trailer sized appliances and dorm-sized fridge, the crawl in ER, the lack of a 3rd stateroom, and lastly and most subjectively, the design language.

I mistyped when I replied to you previously. I should have asked, "why not a Hatteras?" What about them keeps them out of your top ten and what attributes do they have that work against what we want to do?
 
I mistyped when I replied to you previously. I should have asked, "why not a Hatteras?" What about them keeps them out of your top ten and what attributes do they have that work against what we want to do?

1) fuel consumption. The DD are thirsty and not particularly well suited to slow cruise.
2) heavy dependence on generator. All the systems were built around the assumption that the generator will be running when unplugged. That's related to appliance size.
3) complexity of systems. 32v?

Best advice always for someone shopping old boats is to find one that's being used the way you want to use it. Ideally you benefit from previous owners updates and equipment. I suspect most of the boats doing what you describe are trawlers rather than MY.







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The main reason the 10% rule does work is the more expensive boats (to a point) do get more maintenance.

My boat didn't go to the shop for every little scratch or cosmetic issue or even every little squeal or hum that I knew it source and issue. Many of the expensive boats do though as their owners are that "type". My boat just was maintained to float, not leak and keep going.... at the least cost possible.

If I HAD the money to buy a couple hundred thousand dollar boat, I might have spent a lot more on maintenance.

But complexity did come into play a bit...as a liveaboard, I did pack in systems that other "cheaper boats" didn't so some bucks went there such as a type 1 MSD, dingy winch system.... but thankfully no bridge enclosure as canvas/isinglass are horribly expensive especially if you don't do some of your own repairs.

For an older Hatteras, I would say $40,000/year may be close, even high, if you do your own maintenance for the most part and shop around for parts. It doesn't include 500 hrs of fuel without me doing more research on burn rate based on your cruising profile.

My guess though based on my scoping out the older Hatteras were that they were a steady stream of upgrades unless you got one redone by someone at a cost double to sisterships.
 
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I agree the "rules" of increased costs are a fallacy and many reasons why a bigger boat may not be any more maintenance than a smaller one.


Who said, you'd have to compare the same boat of different sizes over time with the same use and same years to get a real comparison... Ted?
And than's not practical.


For me, bigger boats have turned out to be less costly on the maintenance than smaller ones... probably a fluke.
 
I suspect most of the boats doing what you describe are trawlers rather than MY.

I should have said 'most of the power boats...'

Probably sailboats outnumber power boats by 10:1 or more for east coast off grid live aboard. Multihulls are especially popular these days. You can get a glimpse into that community on cruiser forum.

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