Size-based maintenance cost differences between boats.

[ranger58sb]

But what about all the other stuff that all boats have regardless of size? Note- I'm not comparing fuel burn, acquisition, or insurance costs, either.

Let's talk about a generic 43' and 53' twin screw boat. Both boats have two engines, a generator, three or four AC units, appliances in the galley, two or three heads, a water heater, a holding tank, a potable water tank, and all the associated plumbing.

In that regard, is there really much of a difference in maintenance cost?

You're on the right track; some systems are similar regardless of size.

OTOH, a generator might be larger, so maybe slightly more expensive in fluids costs. Engine(s), ditto.

The larger boat may have more ACs (4 or even 5 instead of 3) -- unless you might be wherever Simi's climate is. And sometimes that means an extra water pump for cooling/heating.

You might have separate freezer and fridge in the larger boat, or even multiple fridges too, compared to a combo in the smaller. You might have more and/or larger enclosure panels if you have an enclosed flybridge. Your freshwater pump might be larger. More bilge pumps. More float switches. Et cetera.

IOW, sometimes size (water pump?) or number (ACs) makes stuff more expensive to replace.

It might also be that the differences aren't huge enough to cause much concern, depending on your budget. OTOH, all that little stuff can add up over time...

And then there are sometimes jobs that you choose not to do yourself, for whatever reason. Lack of tools, lack of skills, too hard, whatever. That kind of labor cost can add up too...

-Chris

 

[ranger58sb]

I can't recall ever seeing a 53' boat with a 20Kw generator. Not that I'm speaking from experience, but that seems like such overkill.

It doesn't take much to get up to where larger can be useful, even if not strictly mandatory.

Our case: Nominally a 58' boat. Actually a renamed 55 with a big-a$$ bustle (hydraulic swim platform) added. Approx 45' LWL.

Five ACs (two 16Ks, two 12Ks, one 27K BTU), water heater, all-electric galley, 3 battery chargers... in a hot/humid climate at least during Jul and Aug (that seems to be extending into latter half of June and maybe 1st half of Sep)... with temps cool enough during March/April and Oct/Nov to often want some heat turned on...

And our genset is 21 kW.

Smaller might have worked; don't have an easy way to tell that, though.

-Chris

 

[Mako]

was our former "long-cours62"

Basic 2 Perkins engines no electronic ( if we was younger we will built a similar boat but single engine)
No generator
No AC
Heated by wood heater
no paint on the hull

Sounds and looks like a great "minimalist" cruiser for remote areas and true independence. Wondering about that wood burning heater though. Trying to clean and restore every 4 hours or so isn't really practical. Wouldn't you have preferred a diesel bulkhead heater instead?

 

[Mako]

One advantage of a large (perhaps "grossly oversized") generator on a small boat is adapting it for use as a get-home on a single-diesel. Driving either hydraulics or a 240VAC electric motor or a 400VAC-3phase through a VFD. You get the point.

Probably need to use/test that get home at least once a month in order to fully load it up, but that would be the compromise.

 

[long-cours.62]

For info

Yep, that's about what the stuff I've done looks like with the exception of using the motor mount as the base plate for the accessory. You said it cut your generator usage down to 150 hours; how many hours were you running the generator for before you installed the alternator?

We have two genset 17kw and 9 kw we just pass more than two month in anchorage we use 3 x 45 minutes nour 9 kw when we made ...bread .
The rest of the time our 1400w of solar pannel do the job.


BUT we have a very basic way of life"

 

[long-cours.62]

Somrtime

Sounds and looks like a great "minimalist" cruiser for remote areas and true independence. Wondering about that wood burning heater though. Trying to clean and restore every 4 hours or so isn't really practical. Wouldn't you have preferred a diesel bulkhead heater instead?

for the night we put charcoal and some time I was too lazzy (or it was too cold outside of the bed :lol I do nothing between 11pm to 6am...
And reboost quickly the wood heater was my challenge in morning


We looking at Reflex and Dikinson to keep a small heat at night, it could be a solution we bought a Reflex 66 to conect with our radiator ...but sold the boat before fit it. And the problem with Long-Cours 62was the difference in level need to let a small circulation pump in service ok only 18 w but all the night.


First we fit a Deville 5 kw diesel but heat mainly the salon/wheelhouse, with the wooden burner (who also heat water for the radiator we could heat all the boat)
note we fit one exchanger on one of our engine for under way heat the radiator and aerotherm ...


And some advantage with the wood : smeel, view of the fire , noise of the burning wood, pizza in oven, cooking on the top... and as someone said here it "heated" you three time : when cut the wood, when burn the wood and when you ...clean your deck


Even the dog appreciate wood heater

 

[Simi 60]

.

The larger boat may have more ACs (4 or even 5 instead of 3) -- unless you might be wherever Simi's climate is.

Like I've said before, we are based in the same latitudes as Florida and when we cruise we head North closer to the equator to hotter regions again.

The latitude of Florida, USA is 27.994402,

The latitude of Brisbane, QLD, Australia is -27.470125

Temps in Florida in summer says Google

Daily Maxima average in the upper 80s. but more significantly, the daily minima average in the middle 70s. Low temperatures rarely lower below the 70 degree level during the summer months. in addition to warm temperatures, high humidities prevail throughout the summer

And Brisbane

Summer Weather in Brisbane Australia. Daily high temperatures are around 83°F, rarely falling below 76°F or exceeding 89°F.

No A/C is all about design
The average modern house build over here definately need it

But there is a house type that generally doesn't and that's the "Old Queenslander"
Light coloured roof
Breezeway through the middle of house with all rooms opening into that breezeway
Large overhangs
Large opening windows for cross ventilation

Our boat is an old Queenslander.

 

[ranger58sb]

Temps in Florida in summer says Google

​

Daily Maxima average in the upper 80s. but more significantly, the daily minima average in the middle 70s. Low temperatures rarely lower below the 70 degree level during the summer months. in addition to warm temperatures, high humidities prevail throughout the summer

Temps in South Florida -- we lived near Ft. Lauderdale/Miami -- could be quite comfortable... at anchor... given decent airflow through the boat. (Which is not always a given.)

In a marina, usually not so much. Daytime heat/humidity and night time humidity is a deal. And it was neither desirable nor feasible for us to live out like you do.

Ditto all that here on the Chesapeake Bay, for that matter. Mostly 90s and high 80s over this last month and a half, naturally with high humidity too.

Yep, boat design can be a big factor. Our current is definitely NOT an old "Queenslander." BTW, that design also shares common elements with an old English publik house (next door to our home) from the mid-1650s.

-Chris

 

[Mako]

And some advantage with the wood : smeel, view of the fire , noise of the burning wood, pizza in oven, cooking on the top... and as someone said here it "heated" you three time : when cut the wood, when burn the wood and when you ...clean your deck

Even the dog appreciate wood heater

You bring up a good point - the enjoyment of a wood fire on a cold day. Although many diesel bulkhead heaters have glass windows to see the small flame, the ideal solution would be diesel heat (perhaps hydronic) and then also a small wood burning stove in the saloon. Really just for the beauty and smell. Sounds romantic and adventurous to be sitting in a bay in Patagonia and to occasionally gather some firewood and chop it into pieces and stoke the fire.

But not as a primary means of heating. Thanks LC

 

[mvweebles]

I've often wondered if some sort of complexity factor could be developed based on number of pistons, impellers, valves, joker valves, heads, holding tanks, pumps, hose clamps, display screens, circuit breakers, A/C vents, >100A fuses, avg daily electrical draw, etc.

Bigger doesn't have to equate to complexity and maintenance cost, but 9 times out of 10 it does. There is limit to what can be installed on a smaller boat that enforce limits.

Peter

 

[Mako]

But what about all the other stuff that all boats have regardless of size?

Let's talk about a generic 43' and 53' twin screw boat. Both boats have two engines, a generator, three or four AC units, appliances in the galley, two or three heads, a water heater, a holding tank, a potable water tank, and all the associated plumbing.

In that regard, is there really much of a difference in maintenance cost?

Lots of good information in all the replies to this thread, but I had to remind myself of your original question, trying to contribute something pertinent.

My best example is my old-school 65 footer which I lived on between Seattle and SoCal. It wasn't quite as basic as that nice Long Course 62, but simpler than a Hatteras 53. Some thoughts related to maintenance:

• Twin engines, Jimmies, which after I rebuilt, cost minimal to maintain. Probably an extra $100 for lube oil annually compared to a little Lehman;
• Twin gensets (Onan and Westerbeke) were pieces of junk and I NEVER used them. They should have been ripped out and replaced with a small genset similar to your proposed 43ft - therefore same maintenance cost. I was either at dock or living off my eight 8Ds. No solar unfortunately;
• Watering batteries cost $1 for a gallon of agua, so no difference there compared to your propsed 43ft;
• Four wateright areas but only 2 bilge pumps. Doesn't matter if they are big or small. Perhaps every couple of years have to replace a crappy Rule float switch. Zero cost difference;
• I had a washer dryer. Zero maintenance cost;
• Domestic galley. Zero maintenance cost. If an appliance ever needed replacement, then the cost would likely be 1/4 what a marine unit would be;
• I had VacuFlush heads. Two plus 1 manual head. They required some maintenance. Your smaller boat would likely only have 2 heads. Additional cost perhaps $50 annually. Maybe less.
• Bottom paint every 3 years - but you stated to disregard these obvious costs;
• Washing takes time and a bit more biodegradable soap, so perhaps additional $50 annually;
• Steel boat and I painted with enamel. Your boat likely will be fiberglass. In either case the larger boat will require more paint/wax, plus you'll likely buy a power buffer, but that is a one-time acquisition cost, not maintenance. Hard to say the difference in cost, but the bigger boat maybe $200+ more annually.
• No airconditioning. That saves a lot of money since most of us cannot service our own units. Contactors and capacitors blow, refrigerant leaks, those stupid water pumps burn out;
• Shore power was a single 50 amp. Boat also had 32v power as well as 120/240/12vdc, but there is no maintenance cost associated with those.

Therefore, a larger boat will cost $401 more per year to maintain than a smaller one - there's a figure for you. Perhaps a good question to ask would be what are the biggest maintenance and expense headaches, so you can decide to eliminate them if desired. My thoughts would be:

• Go for a single diesel instead of twin;
• Aircon is always a pain in the butt, even in my house. If your cruising does not require it, then eliminate it;
• Heat should NOT be from reverse-cycle. Go for bulkhead heaters, hydronic, wood stove, etc.;
• Eliminate the generator. If you don't need aircon, and can install at least 1kWh of solar field, you should be able to do so;
• Keep the propane cooker to reduce electic load. If going with electric, then use induction not resistance stove tops.

Build your ownership cost budget to see the big picture. What is the difference in cost for 3-year haul out, monthly dockage, insurance, mortgage, fueling, etc.

Hope this helps.

 

[Captankirk]

General rule of thumb for maintenance that I've heard time and time again is "10% of the cost of the boat for annual maintenance". So it's not only the size, but the age, the type, the configuration, how the boat has been maintained and how you want it to be maintained. Too many variables to make a general statement just based on size.

 

[BevinB]

I have a 48 foot highly optioned twin screw and my shipyard go to says factor in $800 per foot per year..

That includes all maintenance, repairs, replacements, insurances, moorage fees, 1x haul out, 1 x polish and 1 wash per month.

They want $12k just to replace my flybridge clears.

I had some electronic upgrades done and I’ve already blown that budget by double this year alone ..

Which is roughly 10% of the boats value.

I thought this was a lot until covid came along ….

 

[tiltrider1]

The 10% rule is a generalization. It’s a pretty good starting point on average. How much you deviate from this depends on where your starting point is. If you buy the cheapest Hatteras 53 on the market your maintenance bill is going to be more like 20-25% of boat value. On the other hand if you buy a boat to live at the dock and you never leave your maintenance is going to be 3-5% of purchase price.

One person uses the boat 300 hours a year and wants everything perfect for those remote trips to Alaska. The next person uses the boat 50 hours on a lake and fixes only those items that stop the engines from starting. You will get two wildly different answers on how much boat maintenance costs.

This is one of those questions with out an answer.

 

[socalrider]

This is one of those questions with out an answer.

Illustrated perfectly by the preceding few posts: ~$40k/yr for a 48' SeaRay and sounds like a grand or so per year for Mako's 65 footer.

My total costs for my old 41' trawler were around $25k the first year as I was in a fancy marina, fixed a bunch of stuff, added a water maker & solar, etc. etc, now down to only around $3-4k/yr now that I'm on a mooring, do my own work & have no major upgrades in progress. I'm tempted now by larger boats with similar systems because I don't think it'd cost that much more & they'd be more comfortable on passage and at anchor.

Trouble is it's hard to find larger boats without more complex systems - those old Hatteras' are a great example... twin generators, 5-6 reverse cycle AC units, 120/240AC, 12, 24, and 32VDC, stabilizers...

 

[Snapdragon III]

I generally agree with almost everything that has been said in this thread. One thing that I would add in going from a 40' boat to a 56' boat is the physical amount of space available to do your own maintenance. This is especially important if you live aboard, which I didn't on either boat. On the 40'er, as soon as I got out my tools and started almost any project, the entire boat was completely taken over by the project. With the larger boat, there is way more room to work on a project in one area and not have it take over the entire boat. For instance, if I am working on one of the engines, there is room to have the tools I need in the engine room with me, not spread out all over the floor of the pilot house floor outside the engine room hatch on my last boat. It would make a huge difference if you were trying to live aboard the boat while working on big projects, which I never was. Also on the larger boat, I keep way more tools on board, which also makes it easier to take on big projects. Again, not such a big deal for me because I can always bring what I need from my house, but it would be a huge deal if I was living aboard without other storage or a car. Some of the items I keep on the the 56' boat that I didn't keep, or have room for on the 40' is stuff like full sized Feine vacuum, angle grinder, random orbit sander, belt sander, Large battery cable crimper, multiple gear pullers, large pry bars, bar clamps, power saws, etc.

On the other hand, I will say that when I bought the 56' boat it felt like it had similar systems to my 40'er. In reality it is way more complicated in so many ways. It would be way more comfortable to live on, but definitely way more money and work to maintain.

I am not sure what you were including in the 40K/year, but that sounds like too little for me personally, but certainly in the ball park of doable if you were willing to live frugally. If the 40K is just boat maintenance and excludes food, health insurance, travel, clothes, taxes, etc it is probably plenty. I would also not plan on never being in a marina, I would plan on at least a month a year in marinas. At least where we use our boat, you end up wanting to spend a little time in Marina to check out the towns, buy your groceries, dump your garbage, fill your water tanks etc. We prefer to be at anchor but always end up spending a night here or there in marinas. The other thing is if you want to leave the boat for any length of time over a day. It is way easier and likely safer if the boat is in a marina, and plugged into power. it is awfully nice be able to leave the refrigerator running, and a dehumidifier running, and not be worried about your anchor dragging, while you are away.

 

[Mako]

Illustrated perfectly by the preceding few posts: ~$40k/yr for a 48' SeaRay and sounds like a grand or so per year for Mako's 65 footer.

My total costs for my old 41' trawler were around $25k the first year as I was in a fancy marina, fixed a bunch of stuff, added a water maker & solar, etc. etc, now down to only around $3-4k/yr now that I'm on a mooring, do my own work & have no major upgrades in progress.

@Socal, just to clarify, I was trying to illustrate the difference in maintenance costs between a large and smaller boat, which is what the OP was asking about.

Also, I was focusing only on maintenance. The $25k and $40k numbers being thrown around seem to include purchase of equipment (electronics, water maker, etc.) which is not what I consider maintenance. Those are one-time purchases, upgrades, assets, perhaps those numbers include moorage, insurance, etc.

The message that I'm reading on this thread is no one thinks there needs to be a huge difference in maintenance costs between the 40-50 footers. However, the difference in livability, comfort, seaworthiness, motion in a seaway, is huge.

If it is all about saving money however, then don't buy a boat at all